Clarification on when Bigotry is acceptable

[Lindax]

After receiving a PM from owen, I would like to make clear publicly that....

....I do NOT condone bigotry, discrimination, racism, etc.

Lx

[owenshooter]

After receiving a PM from owen, I would like to make clear publicly that....

....I do NOT condone bigotry, discrimination, racism, etc.

Lx

awwwww, shucks... that is sweet... (i won't sign this one, just for you~!)

[Chariot of Fire]

Doesn't the crux of whether a remark is bigoted or not all hinge on intent? Denise alluded to this very thing in her post:

The difference is the intent. Maybe you can say that word and not mean something hateful, but too many others can't.

This whole debate started due to the single use of the word 'fag' as a reason to ban someone using a joke paddle in a light-hearted vehicle created by CC on April 1st. To me this looks like a simple jest between two friends, as the one 'banned' had actually written "You are gae" [sic] on the author's wall some four weeks prior.

So it's a pretty sorry state of affairs when a couple of mates can't share a joke together, with no implicit ill will, without it being labelled bigotry. I'm sure far greater crimes could be identified and peoples' time and resources spent doing something about those instead of creating a mountain out of a molehill.

[Falkomagno]

I think North Americans are way to uptight when it comes to issues like this.

Come on, two black folk can call each other nigger, but I can't? The ones complaining about bigotry and discrimination are generally the ones that need to take a good look at themselves. They tend to be the ones seeing a difference where others don't.

Lx

I completely agree with this statement. And I can confirm that that extra sensibility with the word "nigger" is restricted only to US and to some extend Canada, since not even Mexican culture is that sensible about it.

Another extreme sensibility detected is the one with the word "fag". Astonishingly that people actively pursue punishment for just uttering the word, regardless the context. If is such offensive term, this people can be just glad if the website can do what it does with the word "f*ck" which automatically is changed to "f**k" i think.

[IcePack]

So CoF if I cheat by accident or make a multi by accident, even if it's in the rules but I didn't INTEND to cheat, I should be let off the hook?

It's in the rules, the punishments have a warning system. If they never did anything else wrong they will be warned and that's it. They will know they broke rules / crossed like without really any "impact" other than a warning.

If they've done other things in the past then clearly there's more of an issue than just once, and they will progress the ladder appropriately.

Ultimately this is one case, the wall comment only reflects one out of many. Those who did it "as a joke" will get a warning and move on. Those who have more in their past then a "joke" with no "intent" to harm will be reminded again to know the rules the site enforces.

IcePack

[Chariot of Fire]

So CoF if I cheat by accident or make a multi by accident, even if it's in the rules but I didn't INTEND to cheat, I should be let off the hook?

It's all about intent, if it's the law that's being applied. 'Mens rea' and 'Actus reus'. You have to establish the first before you can prosecute the second.

As for 'cheating by accident' - that's not even possible is it?

Personally I'm not afeared of the written word. I'd far rather someone spoke his mind ("CoF you're such a twat sometimes") than harboured that thought and said nothing.

Education starts with changing peoples' attitudes, and that can only begin when we truly know what people think.

[IcePack]

Again - if my INTENT is a joke, by creating an account w a make shift name to tease you (if we were best buddies, for example).

My intent is "haha" I don't plan to use the account except some fun on forum. But rules say all multi accounts are a no no. Intent doesn't matter, I'll still get punished.

So someone speaking something derogatory that violates rules with the intent of a joke, regardless, should be punished. Intent shouldn't matter, with written words it's hard to "prove" people's intent. I can say something, then when I get in trouble just say "oh ur taking that to serious come on it was a joke man!". It's still something offensive and against the rules.

I wouldn't say this in all applications, but if te site is handing out violation and warnings to others who were joking around (or serious) the same rule should apply to everyone.

If you want to argue the rule shouldn't be there in the first place, that's fine we can discuss merits in a suggestions thread and if implemented anyone who got busted for their "joking" punishments can have their infraction reduced one step. But here we are discussing "why are the rules not being applied to all" when it's clearly a rules violation.


IcePack

[freakns]

p.s.-and did someone really just bust out the N word? mod edit? anyone? anyone... wow...

I did. You have a problem with that? If so, why?

I'm not religious, but I can imagine many more people being offended with somebody calling himself the Black Jesus than me using the word nigger in the context I did.

Lx

right on target...
it would be interesting to see owen reaction if someone starts to sign as "white Martin Luther King"... personally, similar to you, i dont care about religion, but it is signature written down to provoke caucasians, meaning its motivated by racism.

[trapyoung]

It's all about intent, if it's the law that's being applied. 'Mens rea' and 'Actus reus'.

Nerd! (minus the bigotry)

[Fruitcake]

I think North Americans are way to uptight when it comes to issues like this.

Come on, two black folk can call each other nigger, but I can't? The ones complaining about bigotry and discrimination are generally the ones that need to take a good look at themselves. They tend to be the ones seeing a difference where others don't.

Lx

I completely agree with this statement. And I can confirm that that extra sensibility with the word "nigger" is restricted only to US and to some extend Canada, since not even Mexican culture is that sensible about it.

Another extreme sensibility detected is the one with the word "fag". Astonishingly that people actively pursue punishment for just uttering the word, regardless the context. If is such offensive term, this people can be just glad if the website can do what it does with the word "f*ck" which automatically is changed to "f**k" i think.

I think you will find this is also a very sensitive issue in the UK and rightly so.

Personally I find it very distasteful and I am appalled that there is even a debate on the issue. This is not about something having shades of right and wrong, it is wrong, period.

[General Mojo]

So CoF if I cheat by accident or make a multi by accident, even if it's in the rules but I didn't INTEND to cheat, I should be let off the hook?

It's all about intent, if it's the law that's being applied. 'Mens rea' and 'Actus reus'. You have to establish the first before you can prosecute the second.

As for 'cheating by accident' - that's not even possible is it?

Personally I'm not afeared of the written word. I'd far rather someone spoke his mind ("CoF you're such a twat sometimes") than harboured that thought and said nothing.

Education starts with changing peoples' attitudes, and that can only begin when we truly know what people think.

This isn't entirely accurate (at least not by US standards). The intent requirement may be that you intended the act (most civil/tort laws) or may be that you intended the harm (most criminal laws).

I am pretty sure in this case CC's rule does not care whether the person uttering the bigoted statement intended for it to offend, much like the FCC didn't care when it banned certain words from being spoken on public airways.

[tkr4lf]

p.s.-and did someone really just bust out the N word? mod edit? anyone? anyone... wow...

I did. You have a problem with that? If so, why?

I'm not religious, but I can imagine many more people being offended with somebody calling himself the Black Jesus than me using the word nigger in the context I did.

Lx

right on target...
it would be interesting to see owen reaction if someone starts to sign as "white Martin Luther King"... personally, similar to you, i dont care about religion, but it is signature written down to provoke caucasians, meaning its motivated by racism.

How is owen's signature provocative to Caucasians? Jesus wasn't a Caucasian, he was Jewish.

[Siedshow99]

How is owen's signature provocative to Caucasians? Jesus wasn't a Caucasian, he was Jewish.

Calling Jesus a Jew? I can't imagine a More bigoted thing to say...

[Bones2484]

it would be interesting to see owen reaction if someone starts to sign as "white Martin Luther King"... personally, similar to you, i dont care about religion, but it is signature written down to provoke caucasians, meaning its motivated by racism.

It is only provoking to ignorant "Caucasians" who are for some reason afraid of Jesus looking anything unlike them. And considering that Jesus was from the Middle East 2000 years ago, he is probably a lot closer to "black" than you choose to believe. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm not even religious and I know that the color of his skin has nothing to do with his message.

[jgordon1111]

p.s.-and did someone really just bust out the N word? mod edit? anyone? anyone... wow...

I did. You have a problem with that? If so, why?

I'm not religious, but I can imagine many more people being offended with somebody calling himself the Black Jesus than me using the word nigger in the context I did.

Lx

right on target...
it would be interesting to see owen reaction if someone starts to sign as "white Martin Luther King"... personally, similar to you, i dont care about religion, but it is signature written down to provoke caucasians, meaning its motivated by racism.

How is owen's signature provocative to Caucasians? Jesus wasn't a Caucasian, he was Jewish.

+1 exactly more or less. The unfortunate part is most people dont really identify what part of the world jesus was from,they only identify the popular paintings by famous people which are err. hmmm. inaccurate to say the least.

p.s. not offended by sig el jesus negro.

[Falkomagno]

Again - if my INTENT is a joke, by creating an account w a make shift name to tease you (if we were best buddies, for example).

My intent is "haha" I don't plan to use the account except some fun on forum. But rules say all multi accounts are a no no. Intent doesn't matter, I'll still get punished.


IcePack

For example, the creation of obvious multis as [player]@n0nym0us[/player] and [player]Swedish Chef[/player], with the solely purpose of mocking people...You think that deserves a ban for the webmaster? think again, Your argument is invalid

[Falkomagno]

I think North Americans are way to uptight when it comes to issues like this.

Come on, two black folk can call each other nigger, but I can't? The ones complaining about bigotry and discrimination are generally the ones that need to take a good look at themselves. They tend to be the ones seeing a difference where others don't.

Lx

I completely agree with this statement. And I can confirm that that extra sensibility with the word "nigger" is restricted only to US and to some extend Canada, since not even Mexican culture is that sensible about it.

Another extreme sensibility detected is the one with the word "fag". Astonishingly that people actively pursue punishment for just uttering the word, regardless the context. If is such offensive term, this people can be just glad if the website can do what it does with the word "f*ck" which automatically is changed to "f**k" i think.

I think you will find this is also a very sensitive issue in the UK and rightly so.

Personally I find it very distasteful and I am appalled that there is even a debate on the issue. This is not about something having shades of right and wrong, it is wrong, period.

Wrong in the sense that uttering the word nigger or fag should automatically give forum ban?

[Chariot of Fire]

This is what I mean about things perhaps going too far:

Sent: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:46 am
From: Das Reich
To: Chariot of Fire

Hey there,

Thanks for the message, wouldn't have known 'bout this otherwise.

I'll say that no, he does NOT deserve punishment.
We're buds, and we joke like that all the time with each other.

Thanks again for letting me know.

-DR

Surely the person to whom the label was being applied - in this case Das Reich - is the one who should take offence (if any was intended)? Clearly he doesn't. Are we to believe that there's a whole host of people out there who have judged one friend's remark to another as intolerance (let's get to core of what bigotry means shall we)?

I just don't see it somehow, and think this whole topic - based on the evidence on which it was initially founded - has been blown way out of proportion. Please don't construe this as my support of bigotry, for it's not, as I'd stand on the side of what's right and proper every time. I just don't see a case for the argument in this particular instance.

[army of nobunaga]

because loose rules, weak mods, and paper thin wimps looking for something to complain about...

as always.

[natty dread]

I think North Americans are way to uptight when it comes to issues like this.

Come on, two black folk can call each other nigger, but I can't? The ones complaining about bigotry and discrimination are generally the ones that need to take a good look at themselves. They tend to be the ones seeing a difference where others don't.

Lx

I completely agree with this statement. And I can confirm that that extra sensibility with the word "nigger" is restricted only to US and to some extend Canada, since not even Mexican culture is that sensible about it.

Another extreme sensibility detected is the one with the word "fag". Astonishingly that people actively pursue punishment for just uttering the word, regardless the context. If is such offensive term, this people can be just glad if the website can do what it does with the word "f*ck" which automatically is changed to "f**k" i think.

I think you will find this is also a very sensitive issue in the UK and rightly so.

Personally I find it very distasteful and I am appalled that there is even a debate on the issue. This is not about something having shades of right and wrong, it is wrong, period.

Wrong in the sense that uttering the word nigger or fag should automatically give forum ban?

Yes.

[natty dread]

I completely agree with this statement. And I can confirm that that extra sensibility with the word "n****r" is restricted only to US and to some extend Canada, since not even Mexican culture is that sensible about it.

Hey wow, there's only 3 countries in the world, US, Canada and Mexico!

You're full of shit. I can confirm that racial slurs are unacceptable in most of the civilized world.

Surely the person to whom the label was being applied - in this case Das Reich - is the one who should take offence (if any was intended)? Clearly he doesn't. Are we to believe that there's a whole host of people out there who have judged one friend's remark to another as intolerance (let's get to core of what bigotry means shall we)?

It doesn't matter if the subject of the slur is offended or not. The usage of racial slurs is offensive to anyone who has to hear or read them, whether it is directed at them or not. Words like that are inappropriate for a reason. It's not just the word itself, it's the meaning of the word, and the meaning of any word is dependent on it's history and cultural context, not only what the user of the word "intends" to communicate. Intent is irrelevant since we humans haven't perfected telepathy yet, and have to rely on commonly agreed meanings assigned to words.

[Chariot of Fire]

Sorry, where was the racial slur? I must have missed something.

[natty dread]

Sorry, where was the racial slur? I must have missed something.

Racial, homophobic, sexist, etc. It doesn't matter. Bigotry is bigotry.

For example, the creation of obvious multis as [player]@n0nym0us[/player] and [player]Swedish Chef[/player], with the solely purpose of mocking people...You think that deserves a ban for the webmaster? think again, Your argument is invalid

Your argument is stupid. The webmaster can do what he wants, it's his site. The rest of the users have to follow the rules. That's how it works

[Falkomagno]

I completely agree with this statement. And I can confirm that that extra sensibility with the word "n****r" is restricted only to US and to some extend Canada, since not even Mexican culture is that sensible about it.

Hey wow, there's only 3 countries in the world, US, Canada and Mexico!

I was talking about this:

I think North Americans are way to uptight when it comes to issues like this.
Lx

So yes. In north america there is only 3 countries. I'm not sure if you are ill-disposed or plain stupid

You're full of shit. ....

Stay classy.

Anyway, this is clear example of a sentence directed with the solely purpose to offend. Is not funny, is not a mockery among friends since I don't know you; is simply an indication of your written style and "arguments". Still, I don't thing you should be banned for this. Even if this kind of things are annoying, well, are insignificant as well.

It doesn't matter if the subject of the slur is offended or not. The usage of racial slurs is offensive to anyone who has to hear or read them, whether it is directed at them or not. Words like that are inappropriate for a reason. It's not just the word itself, it's the meaning of the word, and the meaning of any word is dependent on it's history and cultural context, not only what the user of the word "intends" to communicate. Intent is irrelevant since we humans haven't perfected telepathy yet, and have to rely on commonly agreed meanings assigned to words.

At the end, even if your stupidity or, ill-intended attitude towards argumentation doesn't allow you to engage in a grown-up discussion,still, really deepth inside your "brain", and skimming in your contradictory rant, you still can peek the truth, which is: words itself are meaningless, but the intention and context given is what really shape its meaning

[natty dread]

words itself are meaningless, but the intention and context given is what really shape its meaning

No, words are not meaningless, and anyone who thinks they are is a mouthbreathing braindwarf.

The meaning of any given word is an agreement between everyone who speaks the same language. Intent has nothing to do with it, because people are not fucking mind readers and can not discern the intent behind any given word unless you spell it out. It's not rocket science.

You can't go on calling people n***ers or f***ots and then be all "hurr durr I didn't mean anything with it, they're just words durrrr" because you cannot ignore the historical and cultural baggage of a word.