Ambiguity wrt foul language

[MichelSableheart]

The purpose of this thread is an open discussion on the topic at hand. This thread is not intended as a carte blanche on the use of foul language, and it is definately not my intention to see this locked. Because of this, I request that all participants in this thread keep their posts as civic as possible.

That being said, discussing the topic at hand may be impossible without the use of some foul language as examples. For this, I ask the understanding of other forum members and the moderators. If you decide to read this thread, please be aware that you may encounter foul language.

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Two recent Cheating and Abuse cases regarding Foul Language had two different results. In this thread, DBo was warned for using offensive language. In this thread, the case against Dibbun was simply closed, with the complainers being told to Foe and Move On.

I am not an native english speaker. My grasp of english is reasonably good, I am almost always to understand what someone is saying. However, quite often I don't know the connotations of the words used. To me, both situtations linked are examples of the use of abusive language, without one being particulary more offensive then the other. However, one ended in a warning, while the other was ignored.

I would like to avoid accidentally breaking the rules. Furthermore, if my opponent is significantly calling me names, I would like to know when I would have a case for actual abuse. Why is one insult more acceptable then another? And how do I recognize the difference?

[Woodruff]

The purpose of this thread is an open discussion on the topic at hand. This thread is not intended as a carte blanche on the use of foul language, and it is definately not my intention to see this locked. Because of this, I request that all participants in this thread keep their posts as civic as possible.

That being said, discussing the topic at hand may be impossible without the use of some foul language as examples. For this, I ask the understanding of other forum members and the moderators. If you decide to read this thread, please be aware that you may encounter foul language.

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Two recent Cheating and Abuse cases regarding Foul Language had two different results. In this thread, DBo was warned for using offensive language. In this thread, the case against Dibbun was simply closed, with the complainers being told to Foe and Move On.

I am not an native english speaker. My grasp of english is reasonably good, I am almost always to understand what someone is saying. However, quite often I don't know the connotations of the words used. To me, both situtations linked are examples of the use of abusive language, without one being particulary more offensive then the other. However, one ended in a warning, while the other was ignored.

I would like to avoid accidentally breaking the rules. Furthermore, if my opponent is significantly calling me names, I would like to know when I would have a case for actual abuse. Why is one insult more acceptable then another? And how do I recognize the difference?

As far as offensiveness goes, there is no difference at all between the two examples you listed, so being able to "recognize" any difference is frankly impossible.

[Dibbun]

Bigotry Specifics

Bigotry includes racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia/sexual orientation bashing, religion bashing, lack of religion bashing, or wishing violence on any group of people, etc.
Bigotry takes into account historic events, emotional baggage and generally accepted associations with a term, phrase or intent - posting "White Power" in a topic has a history and is bigoted, posting "Green Power" makes you an environmentalist.


Bigotry will get your post edited/deleted and you will receive a disciplinary action from a mod. Bigotry, just avoid it. Just do it.

F***** is "homophobia/sexual orientation bashing" and a violation of the rules.

Retard does not fall into any of the above categories.

I have explained the difference between these concepts in greater detail here - viewtopic.php?p=3251410#p3251410

[MoB Deadly]

Exactly, there is little to no difference in severity as Woodruff says, the reasons that one case resulted in a warning and the other was closed is simply because of the way the rules were written as Dibbun said. One word is deemed illegal to CC, the other is not, and of course it is the moderators job to determine and enforce the rules off CC, regardless of the communities or their beliefs. If you want to see a change in the rules, you should make a suggestion thread and get all the support you can

[Leehar]

Exactly, there is little to no difference in severity as Woodruff says, the reasons that one case resulted in a warning and the other was closed is simply because of the way the rules were written as Dibbun said. One word is deemed illegal to CC, the other is not, and of course it is the moderators job to determine and enforce the rules off CC, regardless of the communities or their beliefs. If you want to see a change in the rules, you should make a suggestion thread and get all the support you can

Or we can discuss the validity of the argument and whether there is something needing to be addressed

[eddie2]

weel like i have said previously in another thread there are 3 words i can think of.

1) the fa**** word in relation to being a homephobic word. i see many problems with this word them being.
in the uk this word has many different meanings. also some of gay community can use this word in joke between themselves.

2) the n***** word this word is the same that some black communitys also use this word between themselves. there was a case a while back in the uk where a girl on big brother called a black person this word and was kicked out of it. but in events that followed it was found that she grew up in a black community and had a lot of friends within that area so the use of that word was in her eyes in just even members of the community where she came from stepped up and backed her up in the press(these were black members of the community.)

3) the r***** word this word is not used within mentally challenged area of the community and is a directly abusive word to people who are mentally challenged this word is a word that is banned in the uk along with the other 2. but i do see this word as the worst of them all, because if they do not use it amoungst themselves like the other 2 examples then why should we allow others to use it.

i think the whole thing on racism in the world does need a overhall. in jersey we have a saying now. if you are a jersey person wanting a states rented house or a job you need to pull the card that they are being racist towards jersey people. this is because we have a large community of portugese and polish and they use this card to get housing and jobs.

[MichelSableheart]

@Dibbun: that difference you mention is exactly where my problems come from. Because english isn't my native language, I can't be sure which insults were originally aimed at the quoted categories, and which weren't. Because of this, strictly keeping to that list seems awfully arbitrary to me.

When someone in gamechat decides to start calling me names, and I report their behaviour, whether or not they'll receive a warning will be a completely random decission from my point of view. Similary, despite the laissez-faire stance of CC on this topic, I can't risk responding in kind when I'm getting insulted, because I might inadvertently use a word that is appearantly offensive to these particular groups listed. Especially with the escalating warning scales CC uses, this could be a severe problem.

I understand why the rules of CC state that attacking someone for being for example homophile, female, or black is unacceptable. What I don't understand, however, is why the use of particular words as insults is unacceptable, when the use of other words of similar severity in a similar way is perfectly fine, especially considering the fact that part of the population of this site simply is unable to distinguish between the two categories.

All this is of course assuming that the person using these insults did not intentionally attack the group in question, but solely chose his words with the intent to insult, similar to how people choose their swear words without fully thinking through all the implications of what they're actually saying.

[jefjef]

A very common slang usage for the "r" word is "a contemptible person". Yes it is also used as a slur against mentally handicapped. I myself don't use it. Idiot or stupid would suffice in need of trash talk in re of stupid moves. But unless I'm mistaken "idiot", "stupid" and "dumb" was used years ago to describe those deemed to be mentally handicapped. So where do you draw the line?

FYI: The use of the "f" word by Dbo can not be defended as him calling dibbun a pile of twigs or a cigarette. That is just a pathetically weak and unrealistic defense. It was very obvious what his intent was.

[MichelSableheart]

@Jefjef: There is no doubt at all to me that Dbo intended the word he chose as an insult, and that that word is considered an insult because of the connotations with homophilea. That being said, I doubt that Dbo chose this word with the intend of attacking Dibbuns sexual orientation. It seems to me that his intend was to use the word in a more general sense: that of showing contempt.

It doesn't matter much to me where the line is drawn, as long as it is drawn consistently and understandable. Either all insults that were originally used to derogatively refer to a specific group of people should be out of order, none such insults should be out of order, or the community should be made aware of which words are and which words aren't acceptable. The current ruling of "if a word which can be used to derogatively refer to a specific group of people is uttered on CC, it may or may not be acceptable depending on the word in question, the group of people referred to, the mood of the moderator and a number of other unknown factors" is neither consistent nor understandable to me.

[Dukasaur]

@Jefjef: There is no doubt at all to me that Dbo intended the word he chose as an insult, and that that word is considered an insult because of the connotations with homophilea. That being said, I doubt that Dbo chose this word with the intend of attacking Dibbuns sexual orientation. It seems to me that his intend was to use the word in a more general sense: that of showing contempt.

Your interpretation is absolutely correct. But bottom line is, we live in a corrupt and pussy-whipped society based on lies and hypocrisy, and CC has no choice but to try to get along in that society. So, the same ludicrous illogical rules that apply in society at large apply here. It's okay to call someone a turd-brained degenerate subhuman cum-sponge, as long as you don't use a few special words like the f-word or the n-word that the Political Correctness Police have endowed with Mystical Powers. It's okay for us to play games on WW II maps with Nazi German forces denoted by Iron Crosses, but not by swastikas. Don't ask for it to be logical, and don't blame CC. Blame the journalists that push for these kinds of rules, the politicians that enact them, the lawyers that launch lawsuits based on them, and the teachers that brainwash the little ones with this kind of illogical claptrap. The whole society is based on making people mortally afraid of calling a spade a spade, so CC is not the place to make your stand.

[BoganGod]

Your sadly out of luck mate. There have been a lot of requests for a more specific and concise interpretation of the rules. No productive action from the moderators and admin as yet. You can violate an unwritten rule without knowing it. Some rules are enforced some aren't.

I think this is a site for adults, people should be able to say what they are thinking clearly, and in what ever fashion they wish. If someone doesn't like the language used by another user. They should just foe them, so they don't have to read it. Having someone on foe no longer affects tournaments or clan wars. So its an easy option. They only thing your missing beside their "offensive" game/fora posts are playing public games against.

If foe and move on is not to be promoted as the first choice option, would be most excellent to have a list of forbidden words. Make this a true nanny site. Its quite interesting looking at language. English is very different in different countries. An example that I like to use about the absurdity of language is the word fanny. Fanny used to be a girls name 80+years ago. Now the americans use fanny as slang for their bottom/buttocks. Australians and kiwis use the word fanny as polite slang for a womans genitals...... Rather large difference. Leads to some interesting misunderstandings....

It appears that the site seems to be leaning toward an american style politically correct apologist site. Ambiguity will always be a problem until the C&A mods take ownership of their actions and start to explain EXACTLY why and how they arrived at their decisions.
I know they have a thankless job, and would be creating more work for them. I'm sure would enhance a lot of players understanding of the rules.

[natty dread]

The whole society is based on making people mortally afraid of calling a spade a spade

Reported for racism.

[tkr4lf]

The whole society is based on making people mortally afraid of calling a spade a spade

Reported for racism.

That's not racism. It's a cliche meaning "calling something what it is". The word spade in this phrase has no racist connotations. Ease up a bit guy.

[jefjef]

The whole society is based on making people mortally afraid of calling a spade a spade

Reported for racism.

That's not racism. It's a cliche meaning "calling something what it is". The word spade in this phrase has no racist connotations. Ease up a bit guy.

tkr4 - what you just experienced is called "humor". nd made what we refer to as a "joke".

Ease up a bit.

[oVo]

The whole society is based on making people mortally afraid of calling a spade a spade

Reported for racism.

This references a suit in a deck of cards, though natty's semantics might have
had something else in mind.

The use of foul language to hurl insults in games and elsewhere is not that complicated.
If you have doubts about the meaning and usage of particular words then you probably
don't need to be using them anyways. It is hard to violate site rules when you are part
of a civil exchange.

The reality is, foul language is not ambiguous at all. People know what they are saying.
I'm more offended by the ignorance of both players involved in the two examples given
above. Fortunately dumb is rarely fatal and doesn't have to be a permanent condition.

[Dukasaur]

The use of foul language to hurl insults in games and elsewhere is not that complicated.
If you have doubts about the meaning and usage of particular words then you probably
don't need to be using them anyways. It is hard to violate site rules when you are part
of a civil exchange.

You make a good point. If people tried harder to behave with a general sense of decorum, we'd have a lot fewer incidents and a lot fewer silly C&A threads about language.

[Dibbun]

"Retard" is very rarely used as a slur against the mentally handicapped, and to do so is considered extremely inappropriate in American culture. Calling someone (or an event, or an institution) "retarded" does not automatically connotate that the person is among the mentally handicapped, rather it is a commentary on the sensicalness of the person, event, or institution.

F***** has a long history (including present day) of being a word with hate behind it. It has been used by people while they have been committing atrocious, violent acts against gays.

N***** has a long history (somewhat including present day) of being a word with hate behind it. It has been used by people while they have been committing atrocious, violent acts against blacks.

Bigotry takes into account historic events, emotional baggage and generally accepted associations with a term, phrase or intent

Not sure how England rolls, but in the United States there has never been calls to kill or discriminate against the mentally handicapped, nor large groups of people decrying them as sinners bound for hell, or that they are destroying the country, etc, so "retard" has never had the history of carrying any connotation of hatred. As said before, it would be profoundly disrespectful to use the term to a mentally handicapped person (may cause a fight) but in general conversation it's not vulgar.

Only thing that confuses me is that is says sexism is banned, but you can still use the word "cunt," which is one of the most disrespectful and vulgar words in the English language.

[Woodruff]

Not sure how England rolls, but in the United States there has never been calls to kill or discriminate against the mentally handicapped

This is not accurate at all. In fact, we are just now starting to come out of being utterly discriminatory toward the mentally handicapped.

As said before, it would be profoundly disrespectful to use the term to a mentally handicapped person (may cause a fight) but in general conversation it's not vulgar.

I can only disagree. Perhaps if you had a loved one who was mentally handicapped and had seen how they've been treated, you would think of it differently.

[BoganGod]

The whole society is based on making people mortally afraid of calling a spade a spade

Reported for racism.

This references a suit in a deck of cards, though natty's semantics might have
had something else in mind.

The use of foul language to hurl insults in games and elsewhere is not that complicated.
If you have doubts about the meaning and usage of particular words then you probably
don't need to be using them anyways. It is hard to violate site rules when you are part
of a civil exchange.

The reality is, foul language is not ambiguous at all. People know what they are saying.
I'm more offended by the ignorance of both players involved in the two examples given
above. Fortunately dumb is rarely fatal and doesn't have to be a permanent condition.

I think what the saying is "fat is only temporary, stupid is forever". Now ovo if you were discussing ignornance rather than stupidity/dumb(which literal/original meaning was unable to speak, nothing to do with low IQ), yes ignorance doesn't have to be a permanent condition.

Spot on, people know when they cross the line, and will do it just because they can get away with it.

Dustbin, for a country much younger than england, the United States has a shocking record on the treatment of minorities, the intellectually and physically handicaped and women. Religious tolerance isn't exactly the strong suite of the USA. Note the testing of drugs and chemical weapons on concentious objectors during the vietnam war. That wasn't to many years ago. Some of my fathers religious friends orginally from the USA, still suffer the health issues inflicted on them by their loving government, because they refused to kill others.


Apologies all for the poor spelling, work computer running a rather poor browser with no spell check. Sorry

[eddie2]

"Retard" is very rarely used as a slur against the mentally handicapped, and to do so is considered extremely inappropriate in American culture. Calling someone (or an event, or an institution) "retarded" does not automatically connotate that the person is among the mentally handicapped, rather it is a commentary on the sensicalness of the person, event, or institution.

whaat you mean to say is it is very rarely used full stop because of its meaning.

[MichelSableheart]

Assuming you are correct, Dibbun, how am I supposed to know? The second question I asked in the OP is how I, as a non native english speaker, could recognize the difference. I usually only encounter words in the current context, from which I can derive meaning and intent, but not historical connotation.

[Royal Panda]

Bogan has it all spot on here. And this is a very worthy thread - I attempted to start a list of banned words to help people like the OP out here, but CC blocked it. Probably because they have no idea what the banned words are and just leave it to the mood of the moderator at the time (who they'll of course back to the hilt).

Dibbun is the worst of the worst. A hypocrite to start with:

I feel for you when it comes to your son, and I try specifically avoid saying "retard" in CC and RL in order to avoid any kind of perception that I am somehow disparaging those who may have mental/learning challenges.

(and now suddenly finds this word acceptable to use himself)

And also someone who can't comprehend others' cultures, and is only concerned with what is reprehensible in the UK. Like the OP is asking, we are not all from the same culture here, so people want some sort of clarification. CC has sadly denied us the learning experience in what we should do to become Americanised (maybe first I need to start putting a 'z' in that word instead of an 's'? ).

[Dibbun]

Hey troll noob, I tell you (with remarkable accuracy) what is and isn't considered offensive. You like to play the British martyr like our American language is so fucking hard to understand, when the guidelines for bigotry are very clearly spelled out. There's no ban on words considered offensive to the mentally challenged so you can shut the f*ck up any time about that "retard" incident. It is very clearly stated that any word that is bigoted against gays is disallowed, so avoid those words. Any words bigoted against different races, different religions or lack of religions are also disallowed. Sexism is supposedly banned, but "cunt" is allowed, so not sure how one can be sexist unless the use that word. Oh well, deal with it, and quit bitching about not knowing the rules when you troll anyone (like me) who very patiently explains them to you for the 500th time.

[MichelSableheart]

I would prefer to discuss the topic in general, with the two examples listed in the OP as just examples that triggered the discussion. Could the two of you please be so kind to avoid getting personal over this issue in this thread?

[Woodruff]

Hey troll noob, I tell you (with remarkable accuracy) what is and isn't considered offensive. You like to play the British martyr like our American language is so fucking hard to understand, when the guidelines for bigotry are very clearly spelled out. There's no ban on words considered offensive to the mentally challenged so you can shut the f*ck up any time about that "retard" incident. It is very clearly stated that any word that is bigoted against gays is disallowed, so avoid those words. Any words bigoted against different races, different religions or lack of religions are also disallowed. Sexism is supposedly banned, but "cunt" is allowed, so not sure how one can be sexist unless the use that word. Oh well, deal with it, and quit bitching about not knowing the rules when you troll anyone (like me) who very patiently explains them to you for the 500th time.

I believe the discussion is whether that SHOULD be the case or not. In which case, your response is thoroughly irrational.