Inappropriate merge - Classic map

[Dangerous-Die]

Inappropriare merge is an understatement.

There were i believe 5 threads running on the Classic map debate.

2 had votes running and they were reflecting approx 75-80% support for NO CHANGE and had received well over 100 votes.

1 vote running to discover if there was a NEED for change that was running at 80% saying that there was NO NEED FOR CHANGE.

ALL merged and since there that there has been little comment.

Well is this the 'start' of the 'controlling' of the community?

it is REASONABLE for a vote to run on this subject. As i recall WE ARE THE CUSTOMERS and WE WANT TO SAY WE WANT OUR PROPER MAP BACK - - - -

So i start a new thread and appeal to the moderator to use common sense and let it run.

you NEED a vote management to see the TRUE feelings of players as a whole and not the opinions of those that hang out in the map foundry!!

i have limited this to a 10 day vote - so you cannot moderate it under the guise of it being an infinite vote.

Regards

DD

[T7]

Exactly right. This is being fleshed out and growing, the issue is defining itself naturally (as we all get over the shock ). It was much too early for a merge.

It's supposed to be about keeping the boards clean from advertising and spam and frivilous posts. The complaints about the new "Classic" are none of these.

[wicked]

Dangerous, you didn't read the entire "locking" post.... the convo hasn't been stopped, it's been moved to the map foundry classic map discussion thread so we can follow it all in one place. We've moved on from the whining and bitching about what went wrong, and have moved on to constructive ideas on where to go from here. Any suggestions on how to "fix it" posted here won't be seen. Go post there, ok? But first read the last post here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48575&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=206 (and follow the link in that thread to the current discussion thread)

[detlef]

Actually, you're wrong. There were actually 10, count them 10 threads on the subject. In those 10 threads there was almost no specific suggestions or critiques just people jumping up and down and bitching. I think they got the freaking message and it's not like merging those 10 threads into one very, very long pinned thread is going to lessen the impact.

I've been on this site for a little over a year and can't remember any topic occupying even 5 threads at once. What the hell did you want, the entire page 1? So each of you could voice the same damned thing in your own completely similar way?

I seriously hope you're joking with all this "beginning of the end" BS because it is truly pathetic.

If you guys truly were concerned about not having your 10, count them 10 threads merged, maybe you guys should have thought twice about continuing to start new ones. I mean, what is the oldest rule in message boards. DON'T START A NEW THREAD IF THE SAME FREAKING THREAD ALREADY EXISTS. Why, for god's sake, did you expect that this one time this blatant disregard for posting rules should be allowed?

[T7]

Looks like you're jumping up and down as well. People jump up and down when they're outraged. You're outraged that people are outraged... but a lot of the CC community is outraged - that's the reality, whether it's palitable or not doesn't change the fact.

If it's the first time people have been so upset as to create new 10 threads, then it's the most upset the CC community has been about anything in CC history. It's not - I remember the 'unlimited reinforcement bug' a few months ago created more threads... but that's splitting hairs - people are really upset and 10 posts is what happens when people are really upset.

People are worried that it's being swept under or diluted instead of being treated with the signficance we're pointing out. Whether that's true or not, that is the perception. It is how it is.

There's no joke. I love CC and I love the classic map - I have 14 games on classic with a traditional adjacent standard play. I keep finding myself just not pouring over and thinking about the placements like I used to... it's actually a hard map to look over and concentrate on in gameplay.

Re-read your post. You're outraged and you're writing with ALL CAPITALS and "What did you want, the whole first page?" and things like that - you're reacting to your feelings. Here is the quiet civil post that you want, so are we going to talk about it now or are you going to be outraged? You can be either, it's okay.

I have a game waiting for players: Game 2206188 - come join and play on the new map, and that will help hone your opinion. I won't be in your ear about the map design in the game, don't worry. I just want you to rack up some long experience on the new map in a long adjacent game to help develop your opinion. Where it develops is your perogative.

Cheers.

[Elijah S]

I have to agree that the Mods need to keep in mind that these Forums are for CC Members, and just because a topic is similar to others doesn't mean that Mods should reserve the "right" to determine to end polls or merge threads. - Have you taken a look at some of the idiotic, meaningless topics in these Forums which are left to run?

The overwhelming response to the new Classic map clearly demonstrates it needs to be changed, either back to the original version or worked on...
I think the new map is good but the army circles need to be changed to gray.

But, since this thread is about, what I agree, was an inappropriate merging, I'll try not to veer off subject, as the Mods may determine to move my post into what they consider a more "appropriate" place...

[wicked]

We're not going to move your post Elijah, but all suggestions about how to improve Classic need to be in the thread in the Map forum, not here!! well, if you want it actually seen, that is.

[detlef]

I understand you guys are pissed but honestly, nobody is addressing the fact that there's simply no need to start 10 threads about the same thing. Who's the person who's got the movie of the cat biting the hand of the guy reaching for "new thread"? I mean, that's like part of the message board constitution. That's really it.

I, for one, don't see the big deal about the change but that's besides the point. This thread is about an "inappropriate merge" and in my opinion, among the most important rules of anyone moderating a message board is to avoid it being spammed by 10 threads saying the same damn thing. And that's exactly what they did.

Once again, anyone who thinks that your message didn't get across is looking for a fight where one likely doesn't exist. My guess is that the map will either be changed back to it's original state or something very close. Why? Because the rest of us are not going to flip out and start 10 freaking threads about it if they change it back. If they're smart they'll realize that for two days a bunch of people were going batshit about the new map and nowhere near that amount of fervor was ever generated to force it to be changed.

Well, as a small business man, that's what I would do.

That, however, does not change the fact bitching about the mods not allowing you guys to spam the entire board is completely juvenile. Just step outside yourself for a second and think about it.

[T7]

I run a small international too - www.T7.net.au - you're dealing with adults. Calling people juviniles isn't helping you maintain the high ground and I'm not calling you a kid. So let's talk about it and leave the insults out of it.

When the government does what the people want, the people don't fuss.

If the government upsets the people a bit, then the people write letters to the newspapers etc - things within the rules.

If the government upsets the people a lot, then people protest without regard for the rules.

It's a bit heavy, but the principle still applies: "Political rights do not exist because they have been legally set down on a piece of paper, but only when they have become the ingrown habitof a people, and when any attempt to impair them will meet with the violent resistance of the populace. Where this is not the case, there is no help in any parliamentary Opposition or any Platonic appeals to the constitution." - Rudolf Rocker

What I'm getting at is that if people are upset, then things happen. This happened. People made 10 posts. You can say it's against the rules or the nature of bulletin boards all you like, and you are right. But it doesn't change the fact that it happened. It also doesn't change the reason why it happened.

If your staff go on strike, do you say "Well that's against the rules and that's all there is to it?" or do you think to yourself "Why did they break the rules? They must be *really* pissed - otherwise they would have just left a note in the 'suggestion box'."

10 threads is what happened and it happened because people are very upset - so upset that the rules or 'spirit of things' wasn't considered.

That's what happened. You can play the violin all you like while Rome burns, but that won't solve the problem. People are very upset and that's what they did.

I'd still like you to join that classic game I have, play a game together.

[Elijah S]

Detlef - I think you're perhaps missing the entire point here...
These Forums are complete with some of the most inane, ignorant posts I've ever seen. -There's even a Forum dedicated solely to demeaning other players and seeing who can out-insult the other... and that's all good, I think it's great to have a place to vent.
But, what you call "spamming" and "juvenile", to the guy who spent a few minutes putting together a post and poll, it may feel more like a degree of censorship.

Surely the best place for the feedback regarding a map, is the Map Foundry, and trust me, the Foundry has tried and tried to get more people to visit and give their opinion BEFORE a map is quenched, but if someone wants to bitch, moan, groan, complain, or even compliment a particular map, I don't think their threads should be grouped together solely because they're on the same subject.
These threads should NOT have been merged and should NOT have been placed anywhere other than where the Poster placed them. - Maybe more General Discussion about maps would be a good thing, and not necessarily considered juvenile or spamming because it makes you either scroll down or click page 2.

[detlef]

I run a small international too - http://www.T7.net.au - you're dealing with adults. Calling people juviniles isn't helping you maintain the high ground and I'm not calling you a kid. So let's talk about it and leave the insults out of it.

When the government does what the people want, the people don't fuss.

If the government upsets the people a bit, then the people write letters to the newspapers etc - things within the rules.

If the government upsets the people a lot, then people protest without regard for the rules.

It's a bit heavy, but the principle still applies: "Political rights do not exist because they have been legally set down on a piece of paper, but only when they have become the ingrown habitof a people, and when any attempt to impair them will meet with the violent resistance of the populace. Where this is not the case, there is no help in any parliamentary Opposition or any Platonic appeals to the constitution." - Rudolf Rocker

What I'm getting at is that if people are upset, then things happen. This happened. People made 10 posts. You can say it's against the rules or the nature of bulletin boards all you like, and you are right. But it doesn't change the fact that it happened. It also doesn't change the reason why it happened.

If your staff go on strike, do you say "Well that's against the rules and that's all there is to it?" or do you think to yourself "Why did they break the rules? They must be *really* pissed - otherwise they would have just left a note in the 'suggestion box'."

10 threads is what happened and it happened because people are very upset - so upset that the rules or 'spirit of things' wasn't considered.

That's what happened. You can play the violin all you like while Rome burns, but that won't solve the problem. People are very upset and that's what they did.

I'd still like you to join that classic game I have, play a game together.

Are you implying that simply adding another post in agreement to one of the existing threads would not suffice in making your point?

That is really all there is to it. The very title of this thread implies an "inappropriate merge of threads". However, moderating a message board to the extent that it is not allowed to be spammed with 10 different threads saying the same thing is exactly appropriate.

What you fail to understand is that, while you have the right to bitch about a map change, I should also have the privilege of not having to wade through 10 threads saying the same thing to find topics that I want to read. However, those who felt it was not enough to have 9 threads about the subject and needed to make their own did not respect that.

The real question is why. And, frankly, that reason is, in fact juvenile. Because they felt they had their own cute way of saying the same thing. It was not enough to simply voice agreement with somebody else, they needed to start their own thread and make some stupid joke about not being able to screw their wife until it was fixed. This guy knew that had he simply made that joke in an existing thread, it would get lost. Well, sucks for him because, quite honestly, it's really not that funny of a joke. However, more importantly, that's why not starting a new thread when there's already one there is an established rule. Because most people aren't as funny as they think and their jokes just need to go away and die if they're not funny.

So, you guys have yourselves and not the man trying to keep you down to blame for why these threads were merged. Among those 10 threads, there were 1 or 2 that had a petition. Had everyone respectfully just signed the existing petitions then they would still be here. However, you guys didn't, you felt you had to spam the board. Now you're expecting that spamming the board should be cool if you think it's cool. But it's not. It's spamming the board.

I will add this. If my staff goes on strike, they'd better not expect to get paid. Right? It's the price you pay. So, you guys spammed the board. You made your point and, like always happens when someone spams the board, your shit was merged.

What part of this don't you get?

I'm not trying to take away your right to complain, just telling you that just because you feel strongly about something doesn't mean that we all have to put up with your shit.

[owenshooter]

10 threads is far too many for the same subject. they were merged, and Twill put up the link to the thread where the changes were discussed PRIOR to the change. if you are all so upset, why weren't you over there voicing your concerns before the changes were made? there truly isn't a "majority" that is upset, and if there were, they would have voiced their concerns in the map foundry when it was being discussed. go look at the MASSIVE numbers of votes the polls got. there are bigger threads all over the forum where people have more constructive criticism on subjects other than, "it sucks" or "change it back!" for instance, the thread on feedback. i hope it sticks, just to watch the nerdlings continue to lose their minds.-0

[T7]

> "Are you implying that simply adding another post in agreement to one of the existing threads would not suffice in making your point?"

Yes - and you say the same thing here: "This guy knew that had he simply made that joke in an existing thread, it would get lost."

People, regardless whether you're talking about someone's crummy joke or someone's feeling that their weight won't be added, created new posts to ensure they were heard - because it's an unusually important subject for most people.

Just like you say in your "workers strike" thing, anyone can do anything they want in response to anything. And other people can do anything they want in response to that - that's what keeps it all in check. Not the rules, but knowing you won't piss off so many people that they slash your tires and burn down your house. It's a self-checking system, actions have consequences.

Some of those threads were different, some of them were essentially the same. They were folded into one and people feel their voice isn't being heard at the foundry in the one post over there.

That's the shame of it, people's attachment to the new map is more important than what people playing the map want. And now egos and groupings are getting involved and it's just shameful - resistance just out of spite, like young childish Owen here. I've got respect for detlef even though we don't agree - but Owen is just a kid, and that's the real problem, that this is not going to get resolved because of people's attachment to their investment of effort into the new map, spite and ego resistance.

[detlef]

> "Are you implying that simply adding another post in agreement to one of the existing threads would not suffice in making your point?"

Yes - and you say the same thing here: "This guy knew that had he simply made that joke in an existing thread, it would get lost."

People, regardless whether you're talking about someone's crummy joke or someone's feeling that their weight won't be added, created new posts to ensure they were heard - because it's an unusually important subject for most people.

Just like you say in your "workers strike" thing, anyone can do anything they want in response to anything. And other people can do anything they want in response to that - that's what keeps it all in check. Not the rules, but knowing you won't piss off so many people that they slash your tires and burn down your house. It's a self-checking system, actions have consequences.

Some of those threads were different, some of them were essentially the same. They were folded into one and people feel their voice isn't being heard at the foundry in the one post over there.

That's the shame of it, people's attachment to the new map is more important than what people playing the map want. And now egos and groupings are getting involved and it's just shameful - resistance just out of spite, like young childish Owen here. I've got respect for detlef even though we don't agree - but Owen is just a kid, and that's the real problem, that this is not going to get resolved because of people's attachment to their investment of effort into the new map, spite and ego resistance.

But that's just it. Just as you only have yourselves to blame for why the threads got merged, you guys also have yourselves to blame for the responses that Owen and I have given. I haven't played the new classic map (thanks btw for the invite but I'm not starting any new games until the ones I have wrap up) and didn't really care either way until I was so put off by the fact that you all decided to pee all over the forum. Maybe you guys are right. Maybe the new map sucks. You'll note that I haven't voiced disagreement with your guys opinion on the map. Simply the fact that you are all acting childish. Yes, childish. There's really no other way to say it. Sorry if this offends you but rudely spamming the board and then complaining when the mods do precisely what they're supposed to do by merging your posts is childish. There's absolutely no other way to describe it that is remotely accurate to anyone objective.

That's the thing. You need to quit trying to convince me that it was OK because it was really important to you. I really don't care. It doesn't matter. You need to understand that. Believe me, I understand what you are saying. I also understand that you are entirely missing the point.

[T7]

"pee all over the forum", "Well, sucks for him", "put up with your shit.", "freaking threads", "a bunch of people were going batshit", "10, count them 10", "Yes, childish."

Step outside yourself detlef, you are childish - and you call other people childish to distract yourself from that. Lots of people do that, it's common. Not trying to poke you, it's just being pointed out allright.

I keep reading "Why don't you get it???", it might feel good to type that but I get your message - "Why should people be allowed to make ten similar posts? They get merged. That's the rules as well as the ediquite. So why are you complaining?"

Painfully clear.

And my message keeps getting repeated - Yes you are right, but regardless of whether you are right or not, it's not the first or last time it's happened or will happen. So you might want to learn to not take it so personally, otherwise you'll give yourself a heart attack when "THE DICE AREN"T RANDOM!!" thread #137 is started right?

Then we argue over the details but we're talking apples and oranges. You want to be right. I know you're right, I want you to see something past that... but you won't let go.

Meanwhile, adults are talking about things productively over here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=41592&p=1257873#p1257848

So you can call people childish all you like, I know what's really going on. You could use a bit of revisiting childish nature yourself. Perhaps business has taught you some lessons that you're inappropriately allowing to spread into your other interactions - hell I know that's a difficult thing about the pressures of your own company on your shoulders - because I can see you're a good man with a good core. But I truly mean this sincerely and positively, I wonder if you've lost your way a little.

Have you read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Prizig? If so, c'mon - we should be on the same page. If not, I reckon you'd enjoy it. Go it.

That's all for me. Best of luck to you, I'm over and out.

[detlef]

I, of course, had plenty to say but screw it. You guys are right. Spam the whole freaking board for all I care. Complaining that the rules should not apply to you if you think your point is important enough is great.

[detlef]

Sorry, I said I was done. One last thing. I just re-read Twills comments on the merged and locked thread. Here they are btw

OK, there is a lot of shouting going on, but not a lot of discussion.

We hear you, really we do!
We have already started changing some of the biggest concerns and are hoping to have some options later in the evening or tomorrow.

We need to get everyone in one place and actually discuss specifics with you all though, so pretty please, head over to the original revamp thread in the foundry so we can figure out WHAT to change.

The changes were made for a reason - a lot of our color blind or vision impared players were having problems with armies on the old map so we had to make changes to accomodate them. Obviously we don't want to alienate everyone else and there has been a lot of outcry over this, so, help us find a solution that works for everyone.

Don't just scream bloody murder. "It sucks, change it back" doesn't help because we can't ignore the needs of the group which initially prompted the change.

Join us in the Foundry to discuss exactly what sucks about it so we can fix those things while keeping the needed changes for those who were having real difficulties before.

We'll get it fixed so that everyone is happy as soon as we can, but we need your help!

Twill
(thread locked. Please go to the foundry topic: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=41592&st=0&sk=t&sd=a )

How the hell can that be seen as "inappropriate"? This guy's got a job to do and was guilty of nothing more than trying to improve his product. I can understand the fact that many didn't know these changes were going down. Hell, I didn't. So, this blew up in his face. However, it is very easy to see that he felt he was doing right by his customers. So, after you guys staged your sit-in on the General Forum, you got precisely the appropriate response, he's already working on changes and sitting down at the table with you to discuss others. I mean, that's the first step, right? When somebody strikes, they'd better not expect the management to just walk right out that second and hand them everything they ask for. No, they sit down and work it out.

But that wasn't enough for you. A thoughtful response saying , "we hear you, now let's work this out" was not enough. No, you needed to still have the board littered with silly jokes about the map. Great. Nice to see what's truly important.

[Dekloren]

Fix it plz.

[tzor]

"Inappropriate merge?"

Normally I would say "You got to be kidding," but I seriously think you aren't. Wicked was practically shot at with automatic forum fire for not merging the threads after the first 50 milliseconds and there was a thread saying that she was showing bias and not doing her duty. Twills finally does it after a day to give the hot heads some time to settle down and you are still filling up this forum with pointless spam. What in the world does the poll have to do with the question of the merge, for example? It gets tiring real fast, and that point was lie yesterday.

If you continue to shoot yourself in the foot with threads of this kind do not be surprised to find you no longer have any legs to stand on.

[Dangerous-Die]

I allow the vote to speak for itself - it was not my intention to have a derailed thread about 10 other threads.

I wanted a real vote from players who dont hang around with teh foundry lot to reflect their views. That is all.

Thank you

[detlef]

I allow the vote to speak for itself - it was not my intention to have a derailed thread about 10 other threads.

I wanted a real vote from players who dont hang around with teh foundry lot to reflect their views. That is all.

Thank you

If you don't want your thread to get "derailed" about 10 other threads, then don't start a thread complaining that 10 threads were merged into one.

[Twill]

DD, I understand your frustration with the fact that all the threads were merged and that you think that the voices of the mass were not heard.

That being said, by having that many threads on the same topic, in completely the wrong place, and with mostly the same people posting in all of them saying mostly the same thing, which wasn't very helpful to anyone, it was just creating a mess for everyone else who was here to try and have a conversation about something else.

Yes, this forum is not for "me" - it belongs to the community. By the same token, it does not belong to "you" and should not be allowed to be hijacked by a single topic, spammed all over the place.

Believe me, we heard you within about 20 seconds of the announcement going live. Lackattack, Andydufresne and I were all on a conference call while we watched the response pour in...we heard you and we immediately set about getting the people who needed to be involved up to date with what needed to be changed to address the concerns that everyone had.

No, we were not about to immediately switch things back to the old map - for one, there were reasons that the changes were made in the first place, for another, do you remember the great server crash of '08? Last time we changed too many things too quickly it took down the server, game logs and archiving - it took us about a month to recover from that one...I'd rather live with an new, uncomfortable map for a few days than without a server for an hour and logs for a month...wouldn't you?

So, yes, I merged all the threads - they were in the wrong place, they were going nowhere constructive fast, we already knew that something had to be done and were already doing it, and we needed to get all the constructive comments into one place so that we can efficiently track everyone's concerns and make real, concrete steps towards fixing the issue.

This space exists for the community, and that community is not me or the mod team, but it is also no you. We work hard to keep things usable, so do forgive is we re-direct your complaints to a more appropriate place and keep this one for more general topics.

Now, please, let this thread die and move your concerns to the revamp thread in the foundry - viewtopic.php?f=64&t=41592

Have a good one
Twill