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Map Performance Stats

Postby FATHARRY on Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:15 pm

There are a number of threads dealing with the issue of map-specific performance. Bitzaholic has published stats on winning percentages, Daydream has listed top performers in terms of nett points won, to name but a couple. I have to say that although I feature at or near the top of some of these lists I have reservations about their value in assessing performance.

Winning percentage alone does not take strength of opposition into account.
Nett points won is biased in favour of players who have played more games. It is also biased by one's own overall rating. For example a 1000 rated player will have a far greater nett points gain than a 3000 rated player with the same performance against the same opposition on the map in question. I accept that rating is a statistically sound measure of overall performance, but when considering map-specific performance, one's general rating should not have influence. One needs to make the assumption that on average, opponents' general ratings are representative of their map-specific skill. But this is statistically justified with sufficient sample size. (Of 50 opponents, some may have general ratings in excess of their specific map skill, others may have general ratings which understate their specific map skill, but on average there is no expected bias.)

A further drawback of the above systems is they are based on one's entire playing history. It would be nice to have a measure of current skill, say over the last 50 games. The overall scoring system does meet this criterion in that recent results are far more influential than older results.

A solid measure of map performance should, in my opinion, take the following into consideration:
1) Ignore explicitly and implicitly the studied player's general points.
2) Consider strength of opposition.
3) Take only recent games into effect.

I propose 2 solutions. A is more statistically rigorous. B is more pragmatic.
Both address the following question: Given the last 50 results for this player on this map and given the opposition faced, if the player had played no other maps during this period, what rating would sustained, without nett gain or loss, by this performance?

Method A:
Let the effective map performance rating for player p on map m be R(0)
Let the ratings of opponents for each of the last 50 games g=1....50 be O(g)
If our player p had started with rating R, is rating after game 1 would be
R1 = R(0)+20.O(1)/R(0) for a win or
R1 = R(0)-20.R(0)/0(1) for a loss. (Modify these appropriately for multi-player and team games - I wont bore you with all the detail here - but can post later if required)
similarly R2, R3.....R50 can be recursively calculated in terms of R0
Set R50 = R0 and solve. The solution (R0) is the effective map rating.

Method A is rather laborious, so here is Method B which is a fair approximation of Method A:

Method B:
Let R be the player's effective map performance (to be calculated.)
Let w be the proportion of wins over the last 50 games.
Let O be the average opponents' rating over these same 50 games.

Then to maintain equilibrium of rating we require (approximately):
R + w.20.O/R - (1-w).20.R/0 = R
i.e. R = O.sqrt[w/(1-w)]
R is the effective map performance.

This is a readily implementable formula. It is statistically unbiased except where w = 1 or very close to 1(100% record.) I suggest a default in this regard of R = 5000 if w = 1.
I haven't the time to collect the data to calculate honours lists on this basis. But if someone feels up to writing a grease-monkey script, I believe this will be of some considerable value.

What thoughts?

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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby Blitzaholic on Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:44 pm

fatharry speaks =D>

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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby chipv on Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:35 pm

Hey FatHarry,

For each point gain, P(1) = 20* O/P(0), loss P(1) = 20 * P(0)/O

One problem is the fact that every single point/gain loss is dependent on the entire playing history of the 2 players being compared.
Take the above examples. It is not just P(n) that is dependent but also O.
(So it should read P(n) = 20 * O(k)/P(n-1) , P(n) = 20 * P(n-1)/O(k) )
That means there is not just one but several recursive calculations involved.

So even if you only take into account the last 50 games, the score gains/losses are still dependent on the results of the previous games.
Unless the scoring system is changed to allow independent calculation of scores, we will have to accept this drawback.

FATHARRY wrote:Method A:
Let the effective map performance rating for player p on map m be R(0)
Let the ratings of opponents for each of the last 50 games g=1....50 be O(g)
If our player p had started with rating R, is rating after game 1 would be
R1 = R(0)+20.O(1)/R(0) for a win or
R1 = R(0)-20.R(0)/0(1) for a loss. (Modify these appropriately for multi-player and team games - I wont bore you with all the detail here - but can post later if required)
similarly R2, R3.....R50 can be recursively calculated in terms of R0
Set R50 = R0 and solve. The solution (R0) is the effective map rating.


So your method A is not my preference because using your terminology O(g) is dependent on the g-1 games played by O.
In turn also dependent on O's opponents etc. You have mentioned this drawback already, of course.

FATHARRY wrote:Method B:
Let R be the player's effective map performance (to be calculated.)
Let w be the proportion of wins over the last 50 games.
Let O be the average opponents' rating over these same 50 games.

Then to maintain equilibrium of rating we require (approximately):
R + w.20.O/R - (1-w).20.R/0 = R
i.e. R = O.sqrt[w/(1-w)]
R is the effective map performance.


Method B on the other hand may be do-able.
Currently Map Rank has all of that data already, I would just need to plug it in.
Terminator causes a problem as it always does, though because it can influence a rank positively and still produce a loss.
That means that w is not counting terminations in losses which form part of the recursive calculation for O.
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby FATHARRY on Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:16 pm

Yeah chip I agree. Method A is not very preactical. I'm glad you think that method B is doable - any chance of building this into MAPRANK?

Regarding terminator games. I think each terminator game should be viewed as more than one result.
For each kill achieved it counts as a 1 vs 1 win.
When killed onesself, it counts as a 1 vs 1 loss. i.e. one could have e.g. 2 wins and 1 loss in a single game.
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby Georgerx7di on Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:21 pm

I would also like to see separate ranks for singles vs. trips players and for freestyle and std. I agree with all of your comment fatharry.
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby chipv on Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:32 pm

Apologies, FH, clean forgot until you posted this link in the other thread.

Now that we have charts, the number of games to measure could be user-configurable using the sliders.

I'm still not sure about terminator games.

FATHARRY wrote:Regarding terminator games. I think each terminator game should be viewed as more than one result.
For each kill achieved it counts as a 1 vs 1 win.
When killed onesself, it counts as a 1 vs 1 loss. i.e. one could have e.g. 2 wins and 1 loss in a single game.


Is this fair to consider a single termy kill the same as a 1v1 win?

If we can come up with a satisfactory solution that covers teams and terminator... it will go into Map Rank as a chart.
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby gloryordeath on Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:03 pm

It's better than what we have now! I play a lot of term games and it's a jip on your kill ratio.
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby Scott-Land on Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:06 pm

chipv wrote:Apologies, FH, clean forgot until you posted this link in the other thread.

Now that we have charts, the number of games to measure could be user-configurable using the sliders.

I'm still not sure about terminator games.

FATHARRY wrote:Regarding terminator games. I think each terminator game should be viewed as more than one result.
For each kill achieved it counts as a 1 vs 1 win.
When killed onesself, it counts as a 1 vs 1 loss. i.e. one could have e.g. 2 wins and 1 loss in a single game.


Is this fair to consider a single termy kill the same as a 1v1 win?

If we can come up with a satisfactory solution that covers teams and terminator... it will go into Map Rank as a chart.


Let's just say that a Term kill is equivalent to a 1 vs 1 kill. Is it fair to give a Term kill more worth than a Standard kill even though you don't receive points for the latter? If you count one, surely you have to count the other too?
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby chipv on Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:54 am

No, I'm only referring to crediting players for termy kills when they lose the game.

I am currently thinking not to bother.

So stick to win proportion only.

In which case, I'll start on this when I get the chance.

(Personally killing someone in termy at the expense of winning the game is not always a good indicator of skill).
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby FATHARRY on Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:37 am

Scott-Land wrote:
chipv wrote:Apologies, FH, clean forgot until you posted this link in the other thread.

Now that we have charts, the number of games to measure could be user-configurable using the sliders.

I'm still not sure about terminator games.

FATHARRY wrote:Regarding terminator games. I think each terminator game should be viewed as more than one result.
For each kill achieved it counts as a 1 vs 1 win.
When killed onesself, it counts as a 1 vs 1 loss. i.e. one could have e.g. 2 wins and 1 loss in a single game.


Is this fair to consider a single termy kill the same as a 1v1 win?

If we can come up with a satisfactory solution that covers teams and terminator... it will go into Map Rank as a chart.


Let's just say that a Term kill is equivalent to a 1 vs 1 kill. Is it fair to give a Term kill more worth than a Standard kill even though you don't receive points for the latter? If you count one, surely you have to count the other too?


Yes I think it is fair to count a termy kill worth more than a standard kill.
Kills are the point of the game in termy. Not so in standard. If I kill 6 guys in standard and then get killed by guy # 8, there is no reason why I should get credit for the 6 kills. In fact chances are it was bad strategy to make those kills. The point of standard is to control the map - and I have failed at that.

In termy on the other hand, if I make 6 kills and then get killed by player 8, I have had the better game, even if 8 controls the map.

Different games, different objectives. The points system is based on these objectives - so why depart from this?
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby Scott-Land on Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:58 am

FATHARRY wrote:
Scott-Land wrote:
chipv wrote:Apologies, FH, clean forgot until you posted this link in the other thread.

Now that we have charts, the number of games to measure could be user-configurable using the sliders.

I'm still not sure about terminator games.

FATHARRY wrote:Regarding terminator games. I think each terminator game should be viewed as more than one result.
For each kill achieved it counts as a 1 vs 1 win.
When killed onesself, it counts as a 1 vs 1 loss. i.e. one could have e.g. 2 wins and 1 loss in a single game.


Is this fair to consider a single termy kill the same as a 1v1 win?

If we can come up with a satisfactory solution that covers teams and terminator... it will go into Map Rank as a chart.


Let's just say that a Term kill is equivalent to a 1 vs 1 kill. Is it fair to give a Term kill more worth than a Standard kill even though you don't receive points for the latter? If you count one, surely you have to count the other too?


Yes I think it is fair to count a termy kill worth more than a standard kill.
Kills are the point of the game in termy. Not so in standard. If I kill 6 guys in standard and then get killed by guy # 8, there is no reason why I should get credit for the 6 kills. In fact chances are it was bad strategy to make those kills. The point of standard is to control the map - and I have failed at that.

In termy on the other hand, if I make 6 kills and then get killed by player 8, I have had the better game, even if 8 controls the map.

Different games, different objectives. The points system is based on these objectives - so why depart from this?


I disagree- my experience in 6 man Term Esc games are the complete opposite. A player will make a poor kill just for points ( somewhat of let me get what I can) then leave the board wide open for the next cash. In Standard games, you will rarely see a player take one kill and stop because it leaves himself vulnerable to be killed- generally the first first poor kill is made at a 20/25 cash burning up 40-50 armies and yielding only 1 card. A driving force to get points but not win the game. In most instances, he's sitting with 4 cards and the weakest player. Kills in Standard games are of the same importance and even more so than Term games. In Standard games one kill isn't the driving factor as in Term games. In Standard the win is most important and the points are only a result of the win.

Don't misunderstand me by thinking that I believe it takes more or less skill to win in either game type- but don't suggest that one kill is more deserving or important because it's a Terminator game.
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby FATHARRY on Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:35 am

Scott. It seems from your argument that you view the objective of term games as to "win the game" i.e. make the last kill. I agree with you in principle, the objective should be to win and that is why I don't play term. But.. terminator games were set up specifically to provide an alternative game objective. If the "last kill" is the only criterion by which we judge performance in term games, then why bother to have term games at all?

On the other hand, and I suspect this may address your real concern: In multi-player standard games, the win should be weighted by the number of opponents. i.e. a win in an 8-player standard should count 7 times as much as a 1 vs 1 win.
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby Scott-Land on Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:52 am

FATHARRY wrote:Scott. It seems from your argument that you view the objective of term games as to "win the game" i.e. make the last kill. I agree with you in principle, the objective should be to win and that is why I don't play term. But.. terminator games were set up specifically to provide an alternative game objective. If the "last kill" is the only criterion by which we judge performance in term games, then why bother to have term games at all?



Harry, that wasn't my point. You're counting a Term kill to be equivalent to a 1 vs 1 while a kill in Standard isn't. I'm trying to explain that a kill in Standard game is equal if not more important. Why does a kill in Term games hold more value than a Standard game- because you earn points with each one?
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby FATHARRY on Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:02 am

Simply this: because a kill in a standard game means nothing - unless it contributes to the main objective, which is to win the game. A kill in a term game IS THE MAIN OBJECTIVE . That's what terminator is about :-)
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby FATHARRY on Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:06 am

Simple example:

5 player term: B kills A. D kills B. D kills C. E kills D. A gets 1 loss.
B gets 1 win, 1 loss. C gets 1 loss. D gets 2 wins, 1 loss. E gets 1 win.

5 player standard: B kills A. D kills B. D kills C. E kills D. A, B, C and D get 1 loss. E gets 4 wins.
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby Scott-Land on Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:16 am

FATHARRY wrote:Simply this: because a kill in a standard game means nothing - unless it contributes to the main objective, which is to win the game. A kill in a term game IS THE MAIN OBJECTIVE . That's what terminator is about :-)



I always thought the MAIN OBJECTIVE was to win. I can see how my reasoning is flawed between the two game types. I 'm going to go play a Term- see if I can kill a Cook and meet my objectives. ;)
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Re: Map Performance Stats

Postby FATHARRY on Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:25 am

Perhaps if I put it this way it will put your mind more at ease:

If you win an 8 player standard game (as you often do, Scott :-) You should get credit for all 7 kills, even if other people made some of those kills, because, as it turns out, they effectively made those kills on your behalf.
Not so in term.
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