Psychology Mafia ~ Game Over, Mafia Victory

[lord voldemort]

Win it for me Strike <3

[safariguy5]

First of all, I can confirm that edoc is a Friendly Neighbor. I got a PM saying he's a very friendly townie.

Second of all, Doom is saying that jak is being illogical. First of all, I'm not a fan of directing actions, but basing assumptions on who mafia is going to kill opens up all kinds of WIFOM. I probably won't try to hang someone for trying to direct actions, but saying that their suggestions are illogical based on NK assumptions doesn't make much sense to me either.

[DoomYoshi]

vote jak

Second fos on saf for now ignoring strike's case on jak. We just need to find the third scum, which may be tougher. I have a feeling it is SK instead of vig though?

And, if you are wondering, I was roleblocked last night.

[jak111]

vote jak

Second fos on saf for now ignoring strike's case on jak. We just need to find the third scum, which may be tougher. I have a feeling it is SK instead of vig though?

And, if you are wondering, I was roleblocked last night.

You were roleblocked were you? How convenient. Hopefully Vodean can prove/disprove this. Also, as far as I'm concerned Edoc is now pretty much cleared.

I LAUGH at "strike's case on jak" because he has no case on me, what so ever. Just a lot of quotes and not paying attention to what was happening around my quotes. Though to amuse him I'll put some "s around some quotes from his long post I've decided to answer to.

"The rest is just him twisting love into a negative thing."

Yes, because Zimmah pushed for it to ALWAYS be a positive and I was seriously beginning to believe he was getting overly defensive of a "cleared" role, what was wrong with him claiming Helpful Roleblocker? It might be just me but that wouldn't be "useless" if it was claimed.

"This is something that could have just been forgetfulness but yes Zimmah did say previously that he had been a power role even if he hadn't specified which."

I laugh at this. My post was because he said he claimed his role, when all he did was claim his role's name. We were looking for a full claim, so this is twisting all in it's own.

"I think this is kind of misleading too. Jak claims that Vodean is the most suspicious however that the vote should remain on Zimmah because zimmah is the one in the spotlight when Jak did as much if not more than anybody to make sure that was the case."

Yes, like I said, I wanted a full claim, not some bs that he was giving us. Vodean was one of my prime suspects yesterday, but until we resolved this first case I wasn't moving on.

"As Pancake pointed out a couple posts down from this one, this is as much a distraction from an investigation on the Edoc/vode as it is anything else."

Because we had a case on Zimmah well before Edoc/Vodean came up, so of course I was determined to finish the case.

"More or less goes back to the false attribution of cause and event of facts presented earlier. One problem with the logic here is that. Soundman turning up scum wouldn't actually prove anything. Soundman turns up scum, then the reasons you have for voting vodean are wifom based on he may have coordinated a false result with Zimmah."

Wrong, if Soundman popped scum, it'd be enough prove that he somehow passed it down to Vodean. Bringing in the question as to HOW when one was scum.

"Pointing out that you did have a tendency (with the exception of LoVo who laid pretty low yesterday. Fos Lovo for that) to go after those whose positions did seem contrary to your case on Soundman. Honestly, if I had felt the game was big enough to support it I would have thought you were a lyncher."

With this quote, you just lost ALL your points of a case, because this means you SKIMMED A DEATH SCENE. A death scene that brought you back to life at that. Sure you're the doctor and proved town, but I question on whether it was worth losing LoVo. He gave his life to bring you back to life and you repay him by "Fos Lovo for that" Nice... real nice... Your credibility as far as cases go has gone out the window on this one and proof you are only focusing on my posts, leaving the rest out.

"Again another small issue but more evidence for some minor skimming."

Yeah, I forgot who was who and what was what for maybe the few seconds I was writing out details. You do it, the proof is in the quote above this one.

"Directing actions in a way that could severely limit our abilities as town. If Doom is mafia and he knows that Vodean is tracking him, mafia could send someone else to make the kill and he can worst case scenario claim he was roleblocked if he doesn't have an alternate action he can take. Town will have no proof going into tomorrow and we've effectively wasted a tracker investigation. We also can't say for sure there isn't a mafia busdriver (it's unlikely if we had a mafia busdriver 1 or 2 things probably would have happened differently) in this game who could have been effectively used to make Doom look like scum today."

Funny you should mention roleblocked, because 2 posts down Doom decides to say he was roleblocked On giving a potential scum a way out.

"See above post for why this isn't necessarily true."

If Vodean said he went no where and he says he was roleblocked, that'd prove it immensely.

"Going to note, two no lynches in a row are bad but in this case it was a better alternative than laying the deciding vote on someone because they haven't fully claimed.

Getting off of jak. This post got me wondering as well:"

Yes, I was going to unvote when he claimed, they are too stubborn even when they were town to help town out. Instead they go into some bs reasoning that Love has to be town regardless. Think this as a mafia game, not religion school or anything else they were throwing at us. We needed a claim, they didn't supply, I didn't WANT to have him lynched, I wanted a claim, check your facts bud. I was pushing for the claim all day long and they kept denying it. Plus there wasn't anything else for me to go on at the time so might as well push for the claim one last time.

"You had a tracker investigation on someone who visited the person that died that night, you had a result that you believed more or less meant that Edocsil was lying but your vote was on Zimmah.

As far as Edoc, I tend to believe him. the role is hard to fake claim sucessfully and his actions throughout the game are mostly in line with my thoughts.

I also strongly distrust Safari. I can't pin it as clearly as I can on Jak but I think he was doing the same thing that Jak was with the Love claim just not quite flying so high on the radar as Jak had been. he also twisted Doom's reason for voting Jak."

and finally we have this which is so full of bull it's unreal. Yes he was pressuring Zimmah, Zimmah was off and you know it quite well, if you weren't proved to my town my vote would be on you for how much you skimmed the entire Day 2, what? Did the revival make you forget to read before you make cases out of thin air on people who were doing the right thing and got the wrong person because THAT person decided to bullshit around about things? If this was any other game and Zimmah didn't claim love, you know you'd be all up on his butt for not claiming and for messing around for the entire day with us, and then you'd be on Soundman as well for continuing to mess around when he knew the pressure was serious.

Yes, I ADMIT I was wrong, but when they're as stubborn as THAT of course I'm gonna get the wrong read on them. They'd rather be lynched by the town in the day than let mafia MAYBE kill them in the night and spare the town from making the wrong move. You are arrogant and ignorant with your entire post bud. You paid no attention to what was happening and you didn't even stop to think about how scummy they were acting. For all we knew love could have been a name fake claim for mafia. Kermit the Frog was a name fake claim for me and Lord V in Muppets, and he was pretty much the main character. So don't bs me around with stuff you know we handled to the best of our ability.

Until you show some common sense in what happened yesterday, your cases have no merit nor water to me. Show me you can actually go through it and sum up your thoughts on what happened here yesterday, you tell us did we make the right moves? Did we miss something? Did we not try our hardest to get him to claim? It's easy to pick on people when you're a cleared townie and you can just assume things now that you see a townie dead when townies were pressuring him, isn't it? I bet it's soo easy to do that just because we did our best to help him help himself. Bring something to the table next time, not a rant on every post I made just because I did my best to help the town with what we had.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There, I'm done ranting on you until I see your next post, for now, do we have any viable information? Here's what I have so far on my list even though it isn't as much as I'd LIKE to have at Day 3.

1: Strike Wolf ~ Hope, Town Doctor
2: jak111 ~ I know myself town XDD
4: edocsil ~ Joy, Town Friendly Neighbour
5: safariguy
8: Doomyoshi (replaced DiM) ~ Claimed Cop (I think I forget the emotion claim)
10: Vodean ~ Curiosity, Town Tracker (Will be cleared if he can get today's result right)
11: PCM

So 4 of you uncleared, and 3 of you not even partially cleared in my books. Since I think there's 3 mafia in the game instead of 2 I'm going to FOS Doom, Safari, and Pancake Let's hope Vodean got something for us today. In some WIFOM Edoc could be mafia, but I highly doubt this, otherwise that'd be an awesome and overly powered mafia role XD

Since town Roleblocker is dead, I can say for certain one of those 3 are mafia roleblocker.

[jak111]

Sorry for double post here, but should we start with emotion claims soon? Being at LYLO or MYLO this might be very useful today.

[edocsil]

Jak, that wall of text is illegible. You HAVE to use the quote function to separate your words from strikes.

[zimmah]

Yes, because Zimmah pushed for it to ALWAYS be a positive and I was seriously beginning to believe he was getting overly defensive of a "cleared" role, what was wrong with him claiming Helpful Roleblocker? It might be just me but that wouldn't be "useless" if it was claimed.

basically i got lynched because of ONE statement. while there were much more serious cases too.

it got to the point the game wasn't even enjoyable anymore and i felt i had to be replaced.

it's unbelievable you guys refuse to see and accept that you messed up.

you can't just lynch someone for a single statement. especially not if there are better leads.

this is especially the brick minds i meant which is still in edocs signature. you're so unbelievably stuborn it's impossable to talk with. I made 1 post and EVERYTHING I sad after that post was COMPLETELY taken out of context. there was absolutely NOTHING i could do except the thing you wanted me to do (claim) and just because i refused to claim i got lynched.

that's not the way i like to play mafia. and i will do EXACTLY the same every other time you will force me to claim for reason like this. claiming is only a last resort.

[DoomYoshi]

Frustrating as it is zimmah, it's our current site meta. Basically, a bunch of lazyish players pick the most obvious targets and rip into them until they claim. I suggest you join in the chorus against jak, to prove this point.

[strike wolf]

Zimmah's no longer in the game. Please dont' comment after dead.

[jak111]

This is for Edoc, so don't read this unless you didn't read my last post all the way.

vote jak

Second fos on saf for now ignoring strike's case on jak. We just need to find the third scum, which may be tougher. I have a feeling it is SK instead of vig though?

And, if you are wondering, I was roleblocked last night.

You were roleblocked were you? How convenient. Hopefully Vodean can prove/disprove this. Also, as far as I'm concerned Edoc is now pretty much cleared.

I LAUGH at "strike's case on jak" because he has no case on me, what so ever. Just a lot of quotes and not paying attention to what was happening around my quotes. Though to amuse him I'll put some "s around some quotes from his long post I've decided to answer to.

"The rest is just him twisting love into a negative thing."

Yes, because Zimmah pushed for it to ALWAYS be a positive and I was seriously beginning to believe he was getting overly defensive of a "cleared" role, what was wrong with him claiming Helpful Roleblocker? It might be just me but that wouldn't be "useless" if it was claimed.

"This is something that could have just been forgetfulness but yes Zimmah did say previously that he had been a power role even if he hadn't specified which."

I laugh at this. My post was because he said he claimed his role, when all he did was claim his role's name. We were looking for a full claim, so this is twisting all in it's own.

"I think this is kind of misleading too. Jak claims that Vodean is the most suspicious however that the vote should remain on Zimmah because zimmah is the one in the spotlight when Jak did as much if not more than anybody to make sure that was the case."

Yes, like I said, I wanted a full claim, not some bs that he was giving us. Vodean was one of my prime suspects yesterday, but until we resolved this first case I wasn't moving on.

"As Pancake pointed out a couple posts down from this one, this is as much a distraction from an investigation on the Edoc/vode as it is anything else."

Because we had a case on Zimmah well before Edoc/Vodean came up, so of course I was determined to finish the case.

"More or less goes back to the false attribution of cause and event of facts presented earlier. One problem with the logic here is that. Soundman turning up scum wouldn't actually prove anything. Soundman turns up scum, then the reasons you have for voting vodean are wifom based on he may have coordinated a false result with Zimmah."

Wrong, if Soundman popped scum, it'd be enough prove that he somehow passed it down to Vodean. Bringing in the question as to HOW when one was scum.

"Pointing out that you did have a tendency (with the exception of LoVo who laid pretty low yesterday. Fos Lovo for that) to go after those whose positions did seem contrary to your case on Soundman. Honestly, if I had felt the game was big enough to support it I would have thought you were a lyncher."

With this quote, you just lost ALL your points of a case, because this means you SKIMMED A DEATH SCENE. A death scene that brought you back to life at that. Sure you're the doctor and proved town, but I question on whether it was worth losing LoVo. He gave his life to bring you back to life and you repay him by "Fos Lovo for that" Nice... real nice... Your credibility as far as cases go has gone out the window on this one and proof you are only focusing on my posts, leaving the rest out.

"Again another small issue but more evidence for some minor skimming."

Yeah, I forgot who was who and what was what for maybe the few seconds I was writing out details. You do it, the proof is in the quote above this one.

"Directing actions in a way that could severely limit our abilities as town. If Doom is mafia and he knows that Vodean is tracking him, mafia could send someone else to make the kill and he can worst case scenario claim he was roleblocked if he doesn't have an alternate action he can take. Town will have no proof going into tomorrow and we've effectively wasted a tracker investigation. We also can't say for sure there isn't a mafia busdriver (it's unlikely if we had a mafia busdriver 1 or 2 things probably would have happened differently) in this game who could have been effectively used to make Doom look like scum today."

Funny you should mention roleblocked, because 2 posts down Doom decides to say he was roleblocked On giving a potential scum a way out.

"See above post for why this isn't necessarily true."

If Vodean said he went no where and he says he was roleblocked, that'd prove it immensely.

"Going to note, two no lynches in a row are bad but in this case it was a better alternative than laying the deciding vote on someone because they haven't fully claimed.

Getting off of jak. This post got me wondering as well:"

Yes, I was going to unvote when he claimed, they are too stubborn even when they were town to help town out. Instead they go into some bs reasoning that Love has to be town regardless. Think this as a mafia game, not religion school or anything else they were throwing at us. We needed a claim, they didn't supply, I didn't WANT to have him lynched, I wanted a claim, check your facts bud. I was pushing for the claim all day long and they kept denying it. Plus there wasn't anything else for me to go on at the time so might as well push for the claim one last time.

"You had a tracker investigation on someone who visited the person that died that night, you had a result that you believed more or less meant that Edocsil was lying but your vote was on Zimmah.

As far as Edoc, I tend to believe him. the role is hard to fake claim sucessfully and his actions throughout the game are mostly in line with my thoughts.

I also strongly distrust Safari. I can't pin it as clearly as I can on Jak but I think he was doing the same thing that Jak was with the Love claim just not quite flying so high on the radar as Jak had been. he also twisted Doom's reason for voting Jak."

and finally we have this which is so full of bull it's unreal. Yes he was pressuring Zimmah, Zimmah was off and you know it quite well, if you weren't proved to my town my vote would be on you for how much you skimmed the entire Day 2, what? Did the revival make you forget to read before you make cases out of thin air on people who were doing the right thing and got the wrong person because THAT person decided to bullshit around about things? If this was any other game and Zimmah didn't claim love, you know you'd be all up on his butt for not claiming and for messing around for the entire day with us, and then you'd be on Soundman as well for continuing to mess around when he knew the pressure was serious.

Yes, I ADMIT I was wrong, but when they're as stubborn as THAT of course I'm gonna get the wrong read on them. They'd rather be lynched by the town in the day than let mafia MAYBE kill them in the night and spare the town from making the wrong move. You are arrogant and ignorant with your entire post bud. You paid no attention to what was happening and you didn't even stop to think about how scummy they were acting. For all we knew love could have been a name fake claim for mafia. Kermit the Frog was a name fake claim for me and Lord V in Muppets, and he was pretty much the main character. So don't bs me around with stuff you know we handled to the best of our ability.

Until you show some common sense in what happened yesterday, your cases have no merit nor water to me. Show me you can actually go through it and sum up your thoughts on what happened here yesterday, you tell us did we make the right moves? Did we miss something? Did we not try our hardest to get him to claim? It's easy to pick on people when you're a cleared townie and you can just assume things now that you see a townie dead when townies were pressuring him, isn't it? I bet it's soo easy to do that just because we did our best to help him help himself. Bring something to the table next time, not a rant on every post I made just because I did my best to help the town with what we had.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There, I'm done ranting on you until I see your next post, for now, do we have any viable information? Here's what I have so far on my list even though it isn't as much as I'd LIKE to have at Day 3.

1: Strike Wolf ~ Hope, Town Doctor
2: jak111 ~ I know myself town XDD
4: edocsil ~ Joy, Town Friendly Neighbour
5: safariguy
8: Doomyoshi (replaced DiM) ~ Claimed Cop (I think I forget the emotion claim)
10: Vodean ~ Curiosity, Town Tracker (Will be cleared if he can get today's result right)
11: PCM

So 4 of you uncleared, and 3 of you not even partially cleared in my books. Since I think there's 3 mafia in the game instead of 2 I'm going to FOS Doom, Safari, and Pancake Let's hope Vodean got something for us today. In some WIFOM Edoc could be mafia, but I highly doubt this, otherwise that'd be an awesome and overly powered mafia role XD

Since town Roleblocker is dead, I can say for certain one of those 3 are mafia roleblocker.

There, that should help ya out. I can colour code it as well if you'd like

[jak111]

Frustrating as it is zimmah, it's our current site meta. Basically, a bunch of lazyish players pick the most obvious targets and rip into them until they claim. I suggest you join in the chorus against jak, to prove this point.

Encouraging others to post while dead? Really? Says Doom himself who pushes for claims as well. Or should I not meta you when you've done it to me? As you like to point out once in a while you are more experienced than I. So meta'ing you would bring better results from constant routines.

[pancakemix]

It's like an exercise in Schopenhauer...

Yes, because Zimmah pushed for it to ALWAYS be a positive and I was seriously beginning to believe he was getting overly defensive of a "cleared" role, what was wrong with him claiming Helpful Roleblocker? It might be just me but that wouldn't be "useless" if it was claimed.

I'll acknowledge that love is not always a positive thing, but love's dark side was really unlikely to be evident in a game focused around emotions from the outset.The fact that love was a roleblocker actually DOES go along with it being positive, but capable of being a hindrance. You chased after this notion that love WAS evil because zimmah wouldn't claim (not that he was lying, mind you, wouldn't claim) to the point where you drove him to quit. Then you lynched his replacement. That's absurd.

Because we had a case on Zimmah well before Edoc/Vodean came up, so of course I was determined to finish the case.

No one agrees with you. The final VC had two votes on Sound.

Wrong, if Soundman popped scum, it'd be enough prove that he somehow passed it down to Vodean. Bringing in the question as to HOW when one was scum.

Present a scenario as to how such a thing would occur.

We needed a claim

What would having a claim have changed? Wouldn't keeping that knowledge from the mafia have been a better option?

For all we knew love could have been a name fake claim for mafia. Kermit the Frog was a name fake claim for me and Lord V in Muppets, and he was pretty much the main character. So don't bs me around with stuff you know we handled to the best of our ability.

That's not something to set a precedent by, nor was it your case, so you can't appeal to something like that. Your case was that love could be negative, but you seem to be fixated on the whole claim thing.

Encouraging others to post while dead? Really? Says Doom himself who pushes for claims as well. Or should I not meta you when you've done it to me? As you like to point out once in a while you are more experienced than I. So meta'ing you would bring better results from constant routines.

Until you show some common sense in what happened yesterday, your cases have no merit nor water to me.

Stop with the ad homonems. As for the content of the second one, you should probably look around you before you make such a demand.

[strike wolf]

vote jak

Second fos on saf for now ignoring strike's case on jak. We just need to find the third scum, which may be tougher. I have a feeling it is SK instead of vig though?

And, if you are wondering, I was roleblocked last night.

You were roleblocked were you? How convenient. Hopefully Vodean can prove/disprove this. Also, as far as I'm concerned Edoc is now pretty much cleared.

Funnily enough. If you believe Edocsil to be telling the truth. Vodean should be the last person you trust in this game.

I LAUGH at "strike's case on jak" because he has no case on me, what so ever. Just a lot of quotes and not paying attention to what was happening around my quotes. Though to amuse him I'll put some "s around some quotes from his long post I've decided to answer to.

The easiest way to emotionally sway people to thinking a case is weak is to discredit it before you even answer any of the points in the case.

"The rest is just him twisting love into a negative thing."

Yes, because Zimmah pushed for it to ALWAYS be a positive and I was seriously beginning to believe he was getting overly defensive of a "cleared" role, what was wrong with him claiming Helpful Roleblocker? It might be just me but that wouldn't be "useless" if it was claimed.

Chain of events:

1. People talking about sadness as a generally negative emotion.
2. Someone suggests any emotion can be negative.
3. Zimmah makes an off-hand comment about love never being negative.
4. Few people suggest this isn't necessarily true.
5. Zimmah responds.
6. Vodean questions whether this means that Zimmah could be scummy.
7. Zimmah attempts to defend and you run him over with it.
8. Later on Zimmah is called out for having trying to clear himself with flavor when the basis of the case had been flavor.

As far as claiming, when the pressure built yeah he should have claimed. It doesn't change the fact that Love is the most believable claim we are going to get and it shouldn't have gotten to that point.

"This is something that could have just been forgetfulness but yes Zimmah did say previously that he had been a power role even if he hadn't specified which."

I laugh at this. My post was because he said he claimed his role, when all he did was claim his role's name. We were looking for a full claim, so this is twisting all in it's own.

Let me refresh everyone's memory:

Guys. Piss off on the zimmah hate. He has claimed love. There is no point in asking for more. Once I get through a read tonight, one of you guys pushing the most meta crap about "twisted" love is going to get the vote.

^ Now I think we're getting somewhere. Anything you know that we do not Edoc? So far we've been playing normally and there isn't a bit of hate in this thread (Not to my knowledge), just people playing the game and working with what they got.

But no no, this is great, I feel a slip coming up from someone soon. Feeling nervous? Is pressuring a scum mate starting to weigh in on ya?

(I do realize Zimmah may be serious, but this is Mafia, not a place to decide you're gonna call hate crimes on anyone who suspects you).

Going off THAT note, it's a few of us putting down the fact that you said love HAS to be a pure emotion. That's pretty much where everything is generating from my part. You're trying to say something is pure so you can get off scot free from suspicion. Before Edoc goes around flapping his mouth (Don't you enjoy the detailed commentary?) about how everyone is doing some hate speeches or whatever on a player. All the pressure he's receiving, all the criticism, is mostly coming from what he tried to pull off and claiming that he only can be town.

Change your pov Edoc, you know on a regular day, you'd agree that anyone claiming they are 100% town off of pure flavor spec is scummy as hell. Without investigations or facts, of course we're gonna keep going on what we got so far.

I agree with this sentiment. There's no "twisting" of the love claim. As I said before, there's no clearly defined "town" side and "mafia" side this game. At this point, barring something more substantive, any person who tries to argue flavor spec as the sole basis for clearing them is not going to win town points in my book. This isn't Super Mario Mafia where claiming Mario is just about a 100% clearance. For example, Ambition as an emotion I could easily see as both mafia or town.

But zimmah basically saying that he's not going to play because people disagree with him I think is rather melodramatic way of trying to get pressure off him. And, the vote on jak was mainly because jak is the most aggressive player against him. So playing aggressive is fine, but other people can't play aggressive against you zimmah?

unvote vote zimmah

I can take it if people are agresive towards me, but not if it is day 2, and I badly have done anything g wrong, I already claimed a town power, there's enough other leads, and all info you have on me would hardly even warrant an early weak day 1 case, yet it is day 2 and almost everyone is giving me a serious amou t of pressure and marking and twisting every single word I say. It's getting to the point were I don't even enjoy playing anymore.

You people are just impossible to argue with, and anyone who disagrees with your point of view gets suspicious in your eyes. You act like you know the truth but you really have no clue, or you do know and want to twist it because you are on the bad side.

I don't know what Edocsil intentions are for defending me, I don't even know if he is town or not, but at least he's not burying his head in the sand a shelling such stupid behavior.

Ill-stated yes but all he's saying is that he already claimed to be a town power and he is right the case was weak, it was forced into looking like something it wasn't and you ran with it.

"I think this is kind of misleading too. Jak claims that Vodean is the most suspicious however that the vote should remain on Zimmah because zimmah is the one in the spotlight when Jak did as much if not more than anybody to make sure that was the case."

Yes, like I said, I wanted a full claim, not some bs that he was giving us. Vodean was one of my prime suspects yesterday, but until we resolved this first case I wasn't moving on.

You're missing the point. You were the one who made it into a big case then you claim that you won't unvote and vote Vodean because the case on Zimmah seems to be too popular. Yeah. the case on zimmah was your work.

"As Pancake pointed out a couple posts down from this one, this is as much a distraction from an investigation on the Edoc/vode as it is anything else."

Because we had a case on Zimmah well before Edoc/Vodean came up, so of course I was determined to finish the case.

Or you just wanted to frame zimmah. You and saf were the main one's proposing a Zimmah case. Vodean was there too but he wasn't really bringing it up at every opportunity. Furthermore, you pressure the best most factually based cases not the one's that come up first. You yourself said that Vodean was scummier. Your defense holds no water.

"More or less goes back to the false attribution of cause and event of facts presented earlier. One problem with the logic here is that. Soundman turning up scum wouldn't actually prove anything. Soundman turns up scum, then the reasons you have for voting vodean are wifom based on he may have coordinated a false result with Zimmah."

Wrong, if Soundman popped scum, it'd be enough prove that he somehow passed it down to Vodean. Bringing in the question as to HOW when one was scum.

Wrong. Busdriver could have been involved and not something you could say without hindsight but zimmah himself may have contacted the wrong person with his role and let it slip out. Neither one could have been completely cleared on that basis. There actually wasn't any reason for Zimmah to have Vodean move the role to vodean to only buy one bad lynch.

"Pointing out that you did have a tendency (with the exception of LoVo who laid pretty low yesterday. Fos Lovo for that) to go after those whose positions did seem contrary to your case on Soundman. Honestly, if I had felt the game was big enough to support it I would have thought you were a lyncher."

With this quote, you just lost ALL your points of a case, because this means you SKIMMED A DEATH SCENE. A death scene that brought you back to life at that. Sure you're the doctor and proved town, but I question on whether it was worth losing LoVo. He gave his life to bring you back to life and you repay him by "Fos Lovo for that" Nice... real nice... Your credibility as far as cases go has gone out the window on this one and proof you are only focusing on my posts, leaving the rest out.

All my points? That's a big exaggeration. It's true it did slip my mind that LoVo was the sacrifice. I had it in my mind that it was Pancake for some reason. But I didn't skim anything and it certainly doesn't discredit all my points. If i did the same thing you did while pressuring zimmah or if I made a case on someone who was dead. Making one small mistake that has very little to do with the case as a whole does not discredit the entire case. "Sure you're doctor and proven town but I question On whehter it was worht losing LoVo" that is a low blow designed for no other reason to discredit me. Funny that you've spent as much time trying to falsely discredit me as a reliable source as you have put in effort to actually rebut the points. If I posted everything that was said in this thread this would have been one hell of a long post. I posted what was relevant.

"Again another small issue but more evidence for some minor skimming."

Yeah, I forgot who was who and what was what for maybe the few seconds I was writing out details. You do it, the proof is in the quote above this one.

Very true. I've said in the past it's when it stacks up that it becomes an issue.

"Directing actions in a way that could severely limit our abilities as town. If Doom is mafia and he knows that Vodean is tracking him, mafia could send someone else to make the kill and he can worst case scenario claim he was roleblocked if he doesn't have an alternate action he can take. Town will have no proof going into tomorrow and we've effectively wasted a tracker investigation. We also can't say for sure there isn't a mafia busdriver (it's unlikely if we had a mafia busdriver 1 or 2 things probably would have happened differently) in this game who could have been effectively used to make Doom look like scum today."

Funny you should mention roleblocked, because 2 posts down Doom decides to say he was roleblocked On giving a potential scum a way out.

Doom is a smart fish who if scum has other fish to discuss strategy with. he wouldn't need my help in coming up with an out. And it doesn't change the fact he certainly if at all possible would avoid being the one to make the kill if he knows he was being tracked or that if that does happen then we are left with nothing or any of my other points in that post. Doesn't surprise me though. You've avoided a number of the points I made.

"See above post for why this isn't necessarily true."

If Vodean said he went no where and he says he was roleblocked, that'd prove it immensely.

Not really. Vode and Doom could have easily both been scum and coordinated. Doom like I said above could very easily not have taken an action and then say he had been role blocked. Proves nothing.

"Going to note, two no lynches in a row are bad but in this case it was a better alternative than laying the deciding vote on someone because they haven't fully claimed.

Getting off of jak. This post got me wondering as well:"

Yes, I was going to unvote when he claimed, they are too stubborn even when they were town to help town out. Instead they go into some bs reasoning that Love has to be town regardless. Think this as a mafia game, not religion school or anything else they were throwing at us. We needed a claim, they didn't supply, I didn't WANT to have him lynched, I wanted a claim, check your facts bud. I was pushing for the claim all day long and they kept denying it. Plus there wasn't anything else for me to go on at the time so might as well push for the claim one last time.

THere wasn't even a case at the point. there was vodean the person who was just as scummy if not scummier appearing than anyone else in the game to that point voting him and no one else. you were pushing for a claim that town had effectively said long previously when they started talking about edoc that they didn't find the Zimmah case worth pursuing. You've either deluded yourself that the Zimmah case was bigger than it was or you're hiding behind a ruse.

"You had a tracker investigation on someone who visited the person that died that night, you had a result that you believed more or less meant that Edocsil was lying but your vote was on Zimmah.

As far as Edoc, I tend to believe him. the role is hard to fake claim sucessfully and his actions throughout the game are mostly in line with my thoughts.

I also strongly distrust Safari. I can't pin it as clearly as I can on Jak but I think he was doing the same thing that Jak was with the Love claim just not quite flying so high on the radar as Jak had been. he also twisted Doom's reason for voting Jak."

and finally we have this which is so full of bull it's unreal. Yes he was pressuring Zimmah, Zimmah was off and you know it quite well, if you weren't proved to my town my vote would be on you for how much you skimmed the entire Day 2, what? Did the revival make you forget to read before you make cases out of thin air on people who were doing the right thing and got the wrong person because THAT person decided to bullshit around about things? If this was any other game and Zimmah didn't claim love, you know you'd be all up on his butt for not claiming and for messing around for the entire day with us, and then you'd be on Soundman as well for continuing to mess around when he knew the pressure was serious.

Edocsil said it best yesterday but a strong claim changes everything. I'm not going to start voting Mal Reynolds in Firefly mafia or Peter Parker/Spider-man in Spider-man mafia because they are acting illogical. The rest of that is yet again condescending drivel designed for no other reason than to emotionally discredit rather than logically discredit.

Yes, I ADMIT I was wrong, but when they're as stubborn as THAT of course I'm gonna get the wrong read on them. They'd rather be lynched by the town in the day than let mafia MAYBE kill them in the night and spare the town from making the wrong move. You are arrogant and ignorant with your entire post bud. You paid no attention to what was happening and you didn't even stop to think about how scummy they were acting. For all we knew love could have been a name fake claim for mafia. Kermit the Frog was a name fake claim for me and Lord V in Muppets, and he was pretty much the main character. So don't bs me around with stuff you know we handled to the best of our ability.

Then you may have a perspective I didn't but I was reading all of day 2, wondering how town was getting so easily misled by all of this.

Until you show some common sense in what happened yesterday, your cases have no merit nor water to me. Show me you can actually go through it and sum up your thoughts on what happened here yesterday, you tell us did we make the right moves? Did we miss something? Did we not try our hardest to get him to claim? It's easy to pick on people when you're a cleared townie and you can just assume things now that you see a townie dead when townies were pressuring him, isn't it? I bet it's soo easy to do that just because we did our best to help him help himself. Bring something to the table next time, not a rant on every post I made just because I did my best to help the town with what we had.[/quote]

If you had left it alone when it should have been (when the vodean and Edocsil incident began) than I could at least understand it. But you didn't. You admitted that Vodean was the better case. You continued to vote Zimmah. By the time, Soundman was in the game (I'm counting by when he made his first real post (summing up) not when he officially replaced or confirmed his replacement) momentum was going for other cases. He had no reason at that point to claim. You continued to insist he must. You effectively lynched soundman when town's sentiment was seemingly against it. You must have been really obsessed with that claim.

Oh by the way you still didn't respond to a good portion of my posts.

But this is all digression at this point. The fact of the matter right now is Safari is confirming that Edoc sent him the message. This means one thing. That he's effectively contradicted what vodean said yesterday. Whatever my suspicions on you are is irrelevant at this point unless Vodean can somehow prove innocence.

[edocsil]

Thank you jak, that is much more manageable. I am mobile right now, so I can't make a good analysis, but I'll respond to you points tomorrow.

[jak111]

Thank you jak, that is much more manageable. I am mobile right now, so I can't make a good analysis, but I'll respond to you points tomorrow.

No problem, time to respond to Strike Wolf

Funnily enough. If you believe Edocsil to be telling the truth. Vodean should be the last person you trust in this game.

Can you TWIST my words anymore than this? I believe Edoc is who he says he is with two people confirming they got something from him. But as far as trusting Vodean goes, I am waiting for another confirmed track result bud. I even put on my list that he needs another confirmed track to be cleared in my mind. But another thing is Vodean may have gotten a negative view on Edoc because busdrive/whatever happened may have altered it or Edoc might have a randomized message 50/50 being sent to people of his choosing.

The easiest way to emotionally sway people to thinking a case is weak is to discredit it before you even answer any of the points in the case.

If you think I'm emotionally swaying anyone you're dead wrong. I was replying to Doom's post plain and simple, twist it as much as you will.

As far as claiming, when the pressure built yeah he should have claimed. It doesn't change the fact that Love is the most believable claim we are going to get and it shouldn't have gotten to that point.

Neither does it change the fact that he slipped and it WAS a potential scum slip mate. Like I said, it's easy to discredit my case on him when I ended wrong, but I made no wrong moves to get there when he simply refused to claim. Two votes lynched him, yes, did I plan to lynch him? No. Hell, I even forgot that deadline lynch was in place in this game. But either way, if someone has your head in a noose, you don't mess around with them and go on the same story about why he should be town, oh hell no. You either claim or face the likelihood of being lynched.

Ill-stated yes but all he's saying is that he already claimed to be a town power and he is right the case was weak, it was forced into looking like something it wasn't and you ran with it.

I'm not going to say it was the STRONGEST case in history, but it was a case none the less and not really a bad one with how much he refused to claim at that point. I kept telling him my suspicion was growing with the refusal again and again. He claimed to be a "town power role" but he didn't claim. Learn the difference. Let's revisit Yomiel for a split second, he claimed to be "All important to town power role" did that make the statement true? Not really. Do you see where I'm going with this? I'm saying claiming to be a town power role is not going to get you far in here. Especially not with me.

You're missing the point. You were the one who made it into a big case then you claim that you won't unvote and vote Vodean because the case on Zimmah seems to be too popular. Yeah. the case on zimmah was your work.

No, I'm missing no point bud. I wanted a claim from him. Not because it was popular or not, but because I didn't believe his claim. Nor was how he acting helping me believe him.

Or you just wanted to frame zimmah. You and saf were the main one's proposing a Zimmah case. Vodean was there too but he wasn't really bringing it up at every opportunity. Furthermore, you pressure the best most factually based cases not the one's that come up first. You yourself said that Vodean was scummier. Your defense holds no water.

My defense holds no water? How so? Zimmah was scummy as well, and he grew more and more scummy as it progressed. I'd pressure Vodean if he had claimed, but he refused and took way too long.

All my points? That's a big exaggeration. It's true it did slip my mind that LoVo was the sacrifice. I had it in my mind that it was Pancake for some reason. But I didn't skim anything and it certainly doesn't discredit all my points. If i did the same thing you did while pressuring zimmah or if I made a case on someone who was dead. Making one small mistake that has very little to do with the case as a whole does not discredit the entire case. "Sure you're doctor and proven town but I question On whehter it was worht losing LoVo" that is a low blow designed for no other reason to discredit me. Funny that you've spent as much time trying to falsely discredit me as a reliable source as you have put in effort to actually rebut the points. If I posted everything that was said in this thread this would have been one hell of a long post. I posted what was relevant.

Falsely discredit? Oh, I think I can discredit you bud. You said you would have had a whole page if you quoted everything. Well the problem is you quoted what best suits your idea of me while hardly quoting anyone else (You quoted 2-3 people in your two long posts about me, bringing to the conclusion that you have no real read on anyone else).

Doom is a smart fish who if scum has other fish to discuss strategy with. he wouldn't need my help in coming up with an out. And it doesn't change the fact he certainly if at all possible would avoid being the one to make the kill if he knows he was being tracked or that if that does happen then we are left with nothing or any of my other points in that post. Doesn't surprise me though. You've avoided a number of the points I made.

I haven't avoided, I'm just summing it up and trying to not give people a load a useless things to read. Have you made anything for your views on others?

Not really. Vode and Doom could have easily both been scum and coordinated. Doom like I said above could very easily not have taken an action and then say he had been role blocked. Proves nothing.

Sure they could have, but you're just guessing now.

Edocsil said it best yesterday but a strong claim changes everything. I'm not going to start voting Mal Reynolds in Firefly mafia or Peter Parker/Spider-man in Spider-man mafia because they are acting illogical. The rest of that is yet again condescending drivel designed for no other reason than to emotionally discredit rather than logically discredit.

Now I question if you know what emotional means. I am not emotionally discrediting anything, only using examples to prove my points. If someone takes them emotionally they need to go outside and think it over.

Then you may have a perspective I didn't but I was reading all of day 2, wondering how town was getting so easily misled by all of this.

I don't even need to try to discredit you when you're doing it for me.

If you had left it alone when it should have been (when the vodean and Edocsil incident began) than I could at least understand it. But you didn't. You admitted that Vodean was the better case. You continued to vote Zimmah. By the time, Soundman was in the game (I'm counting by when he made his first real post (summing up) not when he officially replaced or confirmed his replacement) momentum was going for other cases. He had no reason at that point to claim. You continued to insist he must. You effectively lynched soundman when town's sentiment was seemingly against it. You must have been really obsessed with that claim.

Aye, I was obsessed with that claim, Zimmah/Soundman were pushing so far around it it seemed like a gold mine we hit with his continuous refusal to claim.

Oh by the way you still didn't respond to a good portion of my posts.

Like I said, I'm trying to sum it up so there's not pages and pages of us replying to each other for everyone to read.

But this is all digression at this point. The fact of the matter right now is Safari is confirming that Edoc sent him the message. This means one thing. That he's effectively contradicted what vodean said yesterday. Whatever my suspicions on you are is irrelevant at this point unless Vodean can somehow prove innocence.

Simple answer, Edoc's power has a 50/50 of being good/bad and there may have been a busdrive. So Vodean can try and prove his innocence with the tracker report we're looking for.


Whew, that's a lot to respond to and I'd appreciate you summing it down a bit more to the important things. Because I'm not going to continue this debate with you when I know you're in the wrong judgement call at the moment.

Also, your SK theory isn't that well thought out. A vig is most likely.
1.) Because having 2 3rd parties + 2-3 mafia would mean we're outnumbered by tomorrow regardless unless we lynch the "SK"
2.) No 2 kills Night 1.

Want us to throw in a Cult as well? Then there'd be 3 cult atm and we'd be already screwed.

I look forward to replying to the wall of text tomorrow

If it isn't shortened a bit I'm not bothering because I've defended myself quite well against your accusations and I don't see your thoughts on anything else except that you think I'm scummy for pressuring someone who was completely scummy and was well under the pressure to claim.

[safariguy5]

As exhaustive this argument is, strike does have a point. I'd like to hear from vodean before we get into a long discussion about the Love Meta.

I'd also like to point out to zimmah that I consider that post a pretty serious breach of mafia etiquette. Please refrain from making any posts until the game is over.

FoS vodean unless he can come up with a good explanation as to why he and I got different results.

[strike wolf]

Don't have time to answer all of it but BLATANT lie on the not remembering there was a deadline part:

Why waste a Tracker result on something that is practically confirmed? If Doom isn't the cop then it'll come out eventually.

When's eventually? At the end of the game? We don't know if the mafia have fake claims and which roles are in place here. The fact that he visited a dead person coincidentally could mean he was cop who got a bad guess or he is mafia who took Jonty out in the night.

Also Soundman. You haven't claimed yet. This is the final day I believe for today. So without any better cases to go on Unvote, Vote Soundman.

Also if you don't count calling my case "Weak", more or less saying it didn't need to be responded to and say that you laugh at it as emotional aruments you may need to relook up your definition of emotional argument. Of course let's not forget the eye roll too.

[DoomYoshi]

Don't have time to answer all of it but BLATANT lie on the not remembering there was a deadline part:

Why waste a Tracker result on something that is practically confirmed? If Doom isn't the cop then it'll come out eventually.

When's eventually? At the end of the game? We don't know if the mafia have fake claims and which roles are in place here. The fact that he visited a dead person coincidentally could mean he was cop who got a bad guess or he is mafia who took Jonty out in the night.

Also Soundman. You haven't claimed yet. This is the final day I believe for today. So without any better cases to go on Unvote, Vote Soundman.

Also if you don't count calling my case "Weak", more or less saying it didn't need to be responded to and say that you laugh at it as emotional aruments you may need to relook up your definition of emotional argument. Of course let's not forget the eye roll too.

Not remembering a deadline existed is not the same as remembering a deadline lynch existed.

[strike wolf]

Touche and good point. I misunderstood what he meant.

[jak111]

Touche and good point. I misunderstood what he meant.

Well, Doom replied with what I was gonna say. Two differences. I thought this was a majority or no lynch game (Most of them are XD)

[edocsil]

Alright, well, hopefully the two of you have that out of your system for the most part. Despite the size of the walls, neither argument is worth hanging over unless Vodean comes back with an honest track. Also Jak, would a 50/50 role of doing the opposite of my intent be a rather, well, bastard role? IMO strikes opinions and criticisms strike more truly than yours Jak, but I really don't want to get into it unless it is needed. (if vode and the issues with him don't pan out) For now I hope we can let this sit, while we wait for our scummily absent friend to appear.

[jak111]

Alright, well, hopefully the two of you have that out of your system for the most part. Despite the size of the walls, neither argument is worth hanging over unless Vodean comes back with an honest track. Also Jak, would a 50/50 role of doing the opposite of my intent be a rather, well, bastard role? IMO strikes opinions and criticisms strike more truly than yours Jak, but I really don't want to get into it unless it is needed. (if vode and the issues with him don't pan out) For now I hope we can let this sit, while we wait for our scummily absent friend to appear.

50/50 would be a bastard role, that being said I haven't been in a Squirrel game, so not sure if he's as crazy as / and I XD

[strike wolf]

Well it looks like vodean's effectively disappeared. Not sure if it's just for Labor Day weekend or if it will be for longer.

[vodean]

sorry. im here. i tracked jak to campin. i think that just about seals the deal on him being scum. vote jak

[DoomYoshi]

Thank goodness. Something to invigorate this game.