JK9++ ENDGAME Mafia Wins

[betiko]

Well congrats iron, I hope you are happy of your last day move without even consulting with the other 2, giving trini the chance to win. No lynch was the best option. Piling a second vote on a possible fellow town without the discution before was way too risky and you gave the game away, whatever my alignment would be.
Trini ate my head and managed to makeme go against you based on a slight possibility after the night 3. At the begining of day 4 I was convinced it was him, but he managed to change the votes on you, then looking at the entire thread it seemed unlikely that it could be you, and I thought that my vibes vs trini were wrong, and that he couldn't possibly have made that scumslip of the inverted role. Also at the end of day 4 I did say that if it wasn't sam I would go for trini... but in the meanwhile, thinking about it it was a better option to no lynch and get one of us killed to get 3 players left and less options to chose from.
I was a bit concerned when I saw that I advocated sam's lynch on day 4, which started a bit on a OMGUS and after thinking he was defending campin on day 1. I thought it could pretty much backfire on me today. And on day 1, being VT I couldn't know for sure that the guy I was interogating and putting pressure on (campin) was the scum at the time... He softclaimed PR gave a couple of answers then disapeared... as I said, the deadline was comming, I didn't think lynching a possible PR withough further questioning was a good idea for day 1, his case had to be looked at further on on day 2.

Anyway, GG trini, you got me again!

Iron I still don't see what is possibly wrong for you to go for a no lynch on day 5... It was for me the only configuration where it was in benefit of the town...

[vodean]

wow... IB, i was pretty sure it was betiko, but for other reasons than that. gg, go town!

[samgrossy]

So who won? I want to know.

[vodean]

So who won? I want to know.

town.

[betiko]

are you guys stupid? you still didn't understand that I was town even after endgame and that trini was the last mafia?

[betiko]

Mod comments:

From PM to players:

Who won? Go check the end of the thread to find out!

Thanks for playing, all. It was a great game. For those of you lucky enough to survive to Day 4, it was one of my favourite days to read. I hope you had fun posting scenes.

Betiko actually proved to be the strongest town player here, even though he lost the game in the end. FTR, it is better to no lynch at 4 players because if you mislynch, you lose. That way town has to pick between 3 other players. At 3 players, it is the same. If you mislynch, you still lose but you only have to pick between 2 other players.

Also, the busdrive wasn't used N3. It was used N4 to give jonty an incorrect track result just as he died.

Good game all.

vodean and sam, you were just so sure I was scum that you don't even read the mod's comment.

[betiko]

thanks god jonty didn't blindly follow it...

Are you going to thank me, as well as God? For I am God, and God is me

Anyhow, FOS samgrossy for scumarining. Hmm, I'm tempted to vote IB but I'll let him respond before I move my vote.

actually it's just too bad you didn't blindly follow me jonty, we would have won!


Trini by the way, why didn't you use the busdrive on night 3? was it to wifom us?

[VioIet]

Congratulations to the mafia- trini and campin! Very well played trini! That was about as close to perfection as you could possibly get!. One of the best mafia performances I've ever seen.

I'm a bit confused why people thought my actions were confusing at the end of the game- but whatever. I don't really know what else I was expected to do. I had explained that my vote on sam was to get the game moving to night. Now whether you agreed with me doing that or not is a whole different topic. However, the post was pretty self-explanatory.

I really wish Jonty had tracked trini or betiko on N3. I don't know why he chose to track Iron Butterfly. Nor do I get why Iron Butterfly still didn't get that I was town.

We were so close to voting Trini off on Day 3 when the tide switched to Sam. I really thought it was trini, but when the tide switched to Sam, I was tired of the discussion and felt it was time to bring the game to night. So I just voted Sam. However on Day 4, I was convinced that the last mafia was Betiko.

It's always a drag to pinpoint the game so well in the beginning and totally blow it in the end. Oh well!

Thank you for the game Yoshi; I thoroughly enjoyed it!

[betiko]

Congratulations to the mafia- trini and campin! Very well played trini! That was about as close to perfection as you could possibly get!. One of the best mafia performances I've ever seen.

I'm a bit confused why people thought my actions were confusing at the end of the game- but whatever. I don't really know what else I was expected to do. I had explained that my vote on sam was to get the game moving to night. Now whether you agreed with me doing that or not is a whole different topic. However, the post was pretty self-explanatory.

I really wish Jonty had tracked trini or betiko on N3. I don't know why he chose to track Iron Butterfly. Nor do I get why Iron Butterfly still didn't get that I was town.

We were so close to voting Trini off on Day 3 when the tide switched to Sam. I really thought it was trini, but when the tide switched to Sam, I was tired of the discussion and felt it was time to bring the game to night. So I just voted Sam. However on Day 4, I was convinced that the last mafia was Betiko.

It's always a drag to pinpoint the game so well in the beginning and totally blow it in the end. Oh well!

Thank you for the game Yoshi; I thoroughly enjoyed it!

i think you refer to day 4 and 5, not 3 and 4!
I had you back in the suspect list after day 4 as well as you stopped contributing in the end and you left very little explanations... aslo, for you and for sam, i kind of felt bad at some point to clear you guys as there were still chances...

Jonty tracked iron i guess because there had been a big fight between them on day 2 or 3. in that case i thought that the case on jonty made by iron was really bad as i've played most of my games with jonty and there was nothing scummy in his play. So I did suspect iron after that and I was actually happy that jonty checked him that night as I could clear him. then came the allmighty trini brainwasher, that even after a major scumslip managed to turn things around his was and made us look somewhere else!

[trinicardinal]

First of all gg folks it was a pleasure to play this game. As I had said before the people in the game was a definite factor in me joining and I am not sorry that I did. It was great playing with you all.

Dealing with a few items -

Well congrats iron, I hope you are happy of your last day move without even consulting with the other 2, giving trini the chance to win. No lynch was the best option. Piling a second vote on a possible fellow town without the discution before was way too risky and you gave the game away, whatever my alignment would be.

While I agree that it was risky I understand what was going through Iron's mind. By that point in time he was just simply convinced that it was you so the element of risk would not have entered his mind at that point. Also to further explain why (I think) IB found the no lynch vote to be scummy - It was due to the forced votes... so if we no lnyched that day and started the next day with a LYLO situation then the first person to vote sets up a potential speed hammer loss for town with 2 to one odds of a town member being targeted... great chance for scum. Doom, while I understand your reasoning behind the rule it really does not help town in the later stages. I would suggest that if you use it again that you do so for maybe the first 2 days only.. or some variation thereof.

Trini ate my head and managed to makeme go against you based on a slight possibility after the night 3. At the begining of day 4 I was convinced it was him, but he managed to change the votes on you, then looking at the entire thread it seemed unlikely that it could be you, and I thought that my vibes vs trini were wrong, and that he couldn't possibly have made that scumslip of the inverted role.

Actually it wasn't a slip. It was deliberately done just for you, betiko, to jump on and give me a chance to reiterate my being VT and bring back out the idea of you being scum. A bit of a gamble, maybe, but it worked out for me.

Anyway, GG trini, you got me again!

It was nice playing (against) you again betiko and I can't deny that it was fun messing with your head, but you were a worthy opponent.

Trini by the way, why didn't you use the busdrive on night 3? was it to wifom us?

basically yes. depending on who had gotten lynched on D4 I had considered the possibility of leaving jonty alive to build a stronger case on IB... "he left jonty alive because jonty already cleared him so jonty was no threat" sorta stuff

Congratulations to the mafia- trini and campin! Very well played trini! That was about as close to perfection as you could possibly get!. One of the best mafia performances I've ever seen.

Quite simply.... Thank you Vio. It was my first performance as mafia and I'm glad I was able to pull off a good one... especially against all of you... it definitely was not easy. this games goes down in my book as even better than NBC mafia thanks to you all.

Great Game all... look forward to playing again sometime... won't be for a bit though... work is getting too busy again.. but as soon as I can manage again.

[betiko]

hum, letting jonty live would ve been a pretty crazy move because would ve known almost for sure that any result he gave couldn't be trusted... but that if the mafia took that risk it would've been almost certain that the results on vio and iron were not tainted (well it would give even more chances)
And yes, quite a gamble trini cause the votes piled up on you and you ended up at l-1 and jonty who could ve followed. even sam could ve come back and hammer you.

i liked the game balance, but I do think that it's much better when there are name claims and scenes written by the mod, it always gets the discution going and gives some hints.

[trinicardinal]

hum, letting jonty live would ve been a pretty crazy move because would ve known almost for sure that any result he gave couldn't be trusted... but that if the mafia took that risk it would've been almost certain that the results on vio and iron were not tainted (well it would give even more chances)
And yes, quite a gamble trini cause the votes piled up on you and you ended up at l-1 and jonty who could ve followed. even sam could ve come back and hammer you.

i liked the game balance, but I do think that it's much better when there are name claims and scenes written by the mod, it always gets the discution going and gives some hints.

true betiko... it would have been crazy... before this would you think me capable of such a crazy move? If you had to choose between myself and sam for example, who would you say was more likely to make that "mistake"? trini, who has been so strongly hunting and making sense this game or sam the "lurker"? Ofc, with sam being lynched and you remaining alive I couldn't use it... but if sam had remained alive instead it was a definite possibility.

[trinicardinal]

I neglected to mention that sam was my backup case (or main case accordingly) if it came down to IB, Vio, sam and myself. I had several possible scenarios I thought about using. Some of my posts merely hinted at some of the possibilities so the idea would be planted if they were used later on.

[DoomYoshi]

i liked the game balance, but I do think that it's much better when there are name claims and scenes written by the mod, it always gets the discution going and gives some hints.

Writing scenes is always dreaded to me, because I feel embarassed to post a sloppy product, but don't have time to polish my scenes. However, I hate hints being given away. Jonty actually gave a hint away in his scene, and the players could've guessed who jonty would have tracked.

One more thing: mafia hunters often assume perfect play by mafia. This is a case of not optimal play by mafia (although if anyone had followed up jonty's hint, it still would've helped). This is why I don't always assume perfect play by mafia, and why my scumhunting style is different from many players.

[trinicardinal]

Writing scenes is always dreaded to me, because I feel embarassed to post a sloppy product, but don't have time to polish my scenes. However, I hate hints being given away. Jonty actually gave a hint away in his scene, and the players could've guessed who jonty would have tracked.

This actually was why I used the busdrive when killing jonty. in the hopes that any hints that he might give would point towards betiko rather than me.

[jonty125]

I hate hints being given away. Jonty actually gave a hint away in his scene,

Sorry

[DoomYoshi]

I hate hints being given away. Jonty actually gave a hint away in his scene,

Sorry

It's not a problem when you do it, I just don't like doing it.

This harkens back to a mafia in which the mod actually exposed me as mafia through the scene.

[jonty125]

I hate hints being given away. Jonty actually gave a hint away in his scene,

Sorry

It's not a problem when you do it, I just don't like doing it.

This harkens back to a mafia in which the mod actually exposed me as mafia through the scene.

That wouldn't be me would it?

[DoomYoshi]

No, Team CC Mafia done by theSaxLad. Looking through the archives, it blows my mind how many games I have been in.

[Iron Butterfly]

This is my spin on the game.

This type of set up is so much harder then a regular set up. In most games you are slowly able to garner information through investigations and the use of power roles. Guilt or innocence is not only determined by the investigations but by how people respond to the investigations. One is able to then piece together who is lying and who is telling the truth based on conflicting data. granted one is not always stressful for a variety of reasons but to me the game is like a snow ball rolling down hill. As the game goes on it becomes harder and harder for mafia to cover there tails.

With this set up all we had was jonty and even then we could not collaborate or even trust his info was correct due to having a mafia bus driver. Having a Doc was no use in helping find mafia either. All mafia had to do was appear Town without giving obvious scum tells.

In reality the game boils down to one big guessing game depending on how one judges other players.

Honestly I had no idea who was who. What spurred me to finally vote Betiko was how we all, the remaining four, responded to lynching chap. Trin was the first draw attention to Chap playing other games but not being present, which set Violet to join, Betiko followed and then me.

If you look at that small event, its really the only event we had during the game where we could all look at tangible actions to a given situation.

The game was a big lesson. You can really take NOTHING for granted and NOTHING will always be the truth just because a person appears to do the right thing. One could argue that that whole scene was on big reverse WIFOM. You cant convince me that Trin did not appear Town and Betiko did not appear scummy with his wanting to no lynch Campin.

Violet has asked why no one believed her. Its not that I did not believe you its that you were never 100 % cleared given the format. Betiko said you played like Town but that is so subjective as to be meaning less.

I have played on winning mafia teams and done everything Betiko did and of course what Trin did. To me his winning play was pointing out Chap.

I guess the moral of the story is that just because you appear Town does not Mean you are. Just Because you appear mafia does not mean you are. Different players evaluate these alignments in different ways. With out PRs to filter the information it is extremely hard to see the truth and make a rational decision other then guessing.

Sorry Betiko I really thought I was right with what was presented.

Good job Trin...and I was really getting annoyed with all your holidays...which was really making me think twice about you submarining. To little to late though.

[betiko]

the moral of the story for me is that i should trust better my instincts lol. I first harrased campin on day 1 and let it go becuse of his continuous submarining and the deadline approaching, and i was pretty convinced on the end of day 3 and begining of day 4 it was trini. both time i didn't follow my initial instinct and used my reason. On the other hand, for me vodean is never scum, but the reason makes me vote for him, and i always have big doubts with iron, second time i play with you and second time i have a strong scum vibe against you

Otherwise you are wrong about the campin case iron. i was the one who started bugging him, was the first one to vote for him and have been quite insisting on my questions to make him answer them and make him scumslip, which I managed to make him do when he said he had a powerrole. He was deadmeat for later even if we didn't lynch him that day. trini was pretty quiet during that case, i still think you voted too quick without even really letting yourself to think through again and giving all thepower to trini. I really don't think a mafia would've gone that far on a day 1 with his fellow scummate as i did, just as i thought it was pretty impossible a mafia could ve gone as far as you did on campin as well on that day 1...

[trinicardinal]

This is my spin on the game.

This type of set up is so much harder then a regular set up. In most games you are slowly able to garner information through investigations and the use of power roles. Guilt or innocence is not only determined by the investigations but by how people respond to the investigations. One is able to then piece together who is lying and who is telling the truth based on conflicting data. granted one is not always stressful for a variety of reasons but to me the game is like a snow ball rolling down hill. As the game goes on it becomes harder and harder for mafia to cover there tails.

With this set up all we had was jonty and even then we could not collaborate or even trust his info was correct due to having a mafia bus driver. Having a Doc was no use in helping find mafia either. All mafia had to do was appear Town without giving obvious scum tells.

In reality the game boils down to one big guessing game depending on how one judges other players.

Honestly I had no idea who was who. What spurred me to finally vote Betiko was how we all, the remaining four, responded to lynching chap. Trin was the first draw attention to Chap playing other games but not being present, which set Violet to join, Betiko followed and then me.

If you look at that small event, its really the only event we had during the game where we could all look at tangible actions to a given situation.

The game was a big lesson. You can really take NOTHING for granted and NOTHING will always be the truth just because a person appears to do the right thing. One could argue that that whole scene was on big reverse WIFOM. You cant convince me that Trin did not appear Town and Betiko did not appear scummy with his wanting to no lynch Campin.

Violet has asked why no one believed her. Its not that I did not believe you its that you were never 100 % cleared given the format. Betiko said you played like Town but that is so subjective as to be meaning less.

I have played on winning mafia teams and done everything Betiko did and of course what Trin did. To me his winning play was pointing out Chap.

I guess the moral of the story is that just because you appear Town does not Mean you are. Just Because you appear mafia does not mean you are. Different players evaluate these alignments in different ways. With out PRs to filter the information it is extremely hard to see the truth and make a rational decision other then guessing.

Sorry Betiko I really thought I was right with what was presented.

Good job Trin...and I was really getting annoyed with all your holidays...which was really making me think twice about you submarining. To little to late though.

Thanks IB. I actually wasn't intentionally submarining with those holidays. They all took place when I said they did... and all are/were legitimate... we really have a lot of holidays in our country and what happened in August was a little unusual... normally there are 2 on the 1st (Emancipation Day) and 31st (Independence Day) of August. This year we also ran into a religious holiday (Eid Ul Fitr) which changes by approximately 11 days each year and fell in August this year and then we had the additional holiday from the olympic Gold Medal (only our second ever) so it was really unusal. then we ran into the only one we have in Septembern (Republic Day). Ironically enough the next one isn't till November so it would have been a little while before more interruptions but the game is now over.

I'm sorry they frustrated you and I understand why they did. Hopefully I won't have to put you through that again in another game.

[Iron Butterfly]

LOL its not like you would have helped if you had fewer holidays.

[trinicardinal]

LOL its not like you would have helped if you had fewer holidays.

Good Point but maybe next games things will be different

[betiko]

one last question trini; if I had managed to convince people to vote no lynch on day 5 being r best option; would ve you killed someone or not and if you did who would ve you killed?