Two Sides Mafia: Side A, Endgame, The Old Ways

[edocsil]

...

Hypothetically here.

In A I am mafia Goon
In B I am town Cop

You are

In B mafia
In A town

You know in B I am not mafia so you vigs me and I turn up innocent. Then in A everyone knows I am scum and suddenly I am dead in both. Why would any moderately intelligent individual take you up on you deal?

Your plan blows horribly and is full of holes and you know it (or you should) so I am assuming ulterior motives.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

uhh edocsil you said the same thing I did lol

[edocsil]

uhh edocsil you said the same thing I did lol

The difference is that I am actively accusing him of manipulating the scenario to hes benefit. You merely state that he is wrong.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

Lol also he could be mafia trying to make himself look town right off the bat so if he is ever accuse he can say
"hey guys remember this"

[Rodion]

@Clever - I thought this through deeper than you may think and I would not allow the situation that you mentioned to happen.

Why would any moderately intelligent individual take you up on you deal?

Irrelevant.

If you are town in both games and you came to the conclusion that T/M or M/T should not take the offer (a conclusion that may or may not be correct), why would you discourage them from doing it? Shouldn't you instead not comment on anything while inwardly hoping that one of them is "stupid" enough to take the deal?

[shieldgenerator7]

So it seems Rodion has taken a lot of heat for his "mainpulative" strategy suggestion. I don't think we should lynch him as he is a valuable townie and he will be useful towards endgame. Mafia will probably out him N1 or the cop will investigate him to make sure he's town. I wouldn't worry about lynching him right now.

FASTPOSTED

[Some7hingCLEVER]

@Clever - I thought this through deeper than you may think and I would not allow the situation that you mentioned to happen.

Why would any moderately intelligent individual take you up on you deal?

Irrelevant.

If you are town in both games and you came to the conclusion that T/M or M/T should not take the offer (a conclusion that may or may not be correct), why would you discourage them from doing it? Shouldn't you instead not comment on anything while inwardly hoping that one of them is "stupid" enough to take the deal?

ok if you thought this through sooo well then explain how you would not let that scenario and every other to happen since all your saying is that you can do it so can u explain how you would do so

[Rodion]

I'll explain it after I get to see which players are taking the deal (and I can also explain why I didn't want to explain this now, if you're interested). All you need to do at the moment is refrain from bandwagonning anyone that confesses in either game until I get a chance to deal with the confession (I want to make sure that they are in a good position to win their town game if they take the deal - or else they would have no incentive to take it).

[/]

Vote Count

You are on side A

Sully; 1 vote: safari
Rodion; 3 votes: PCM, VS, jonty

with 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

[edocsil]

@Clever - I thought this through deeper than you may think and I would not allow the situation that you mentioned to happen.

Why would any moderately intelligent individual take you up on you deal?

Irrelevant.

If you are town in both games and you came to the conclusion that T/M or M/T should not take the offer (a conclusion that may or may not be correct), why would you discourage them from doing it? Shouldn't you instead not comment on anything while inwardly hoping that one of them is "stupid" enough to take the deal?

Your missing the point that I think you are concealing something. If I am town here why would I want you to go and trick people? As I have said, the argument doesn't make a lot of sense, and you being a fairly veteran player should know that. The conclusion is that you know more then you let on. THAT is what I am arguing about, not the specific details of your plan.

[zimmah]

please make me a reserve as i totaly missed signups and i think this mafia is pretty epic.

[safariguy5]

So how long were you going to give for someone to take your deal? Also, how can I trust you Rodion based on all that you said being "you're town/town" which is basically what every single mafia player says.

Also, human nature is to win as much as possible (cue Charlie Sheen joke). I figure nobody is biting because everyone wants as great a possibility as possible for winning both games. You can't singlehandedly guarantee that someone who takes the deal will win one of their games. I maybe could see this deal working towards LYLO, but right now with Day 1, there are so many possibilities out there that the deal really offers nothing concrete to anyone, town or mafia.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

Ok so im thinking and honestly..no way to tell if there town/mafia or mafia/mafia cause if there the second then they die one game make it to the end the other...unless
1.) your the cop and you investigate on whichever side ur cop finding there mafia side
2.) or your mafia/mafia and you know who is town already and have some ingenious plan to screw town over that i havent thought of yet lol
thats the only way u can be one hundred percent that there not lying about anything

[crazymilkshake5]

Just read up on every thing and I Shall FoS Rodion and possible vote until further notice.

[shieldgenerator7]

@MOD: to clarify things, if we die in one side, we can still post about that other side in the side we're still alive in, right?

[Rodion]

Your missing the point that I think you are concealing something. If I am town here why would I want you to go and trick people? As I have said, the argument doesn't make a lot of sense, and you being a fairly veteran player should know that. The conclusion is that you know more then you let on. THAT is what I am arguing about, not the specific details of your plan.

I definitely am concealing something. It's one of those plans that should be revealed on a need to know basis. The thing I "know" more than what I'm currently letting on is the specifics of how to orchestrate the rest of the plan (after confessions are made).

What's irking me is that a town/town player (which everyone should be pretending to be unless they accept a deal) has nothing to lose by seeing someone else confess (technically, I'm the only one bound by the deal to consider the confesser almost cleared in the other game), yet several of you seem to be shooting down my idea.

So how long were you going to give for someone to take your deal? Also, how can I trust you Rodion based on all that you said being "you're town/town" which is basically what every single mafia player says.

I don't want to discourage confessions, so I don't want to establish any hard time constraint.
You can't trust me, but the point I am trying to make is that a T/T player has NOTHING TO LOSE by seeing a T/M or M/T confess (ffs, we are getting a freebie lynch!).

Also, human nature is to win as much as possible (cue Charlie Sheen joke). I figure nobody is biting because everyone wants as great a possibility as possible for winning both games. You can't singlehandedly guarantee that someone who takes the deal will win one of their games. I maybe could see this deal working towards LYLO, but right now with Day 1, there are so many possibilities out there that the deal really offers nothing concrete to anyone, town or mafia.

That's a good point. It's possible that people are willing to risk the double T/M or M/T win, but it's ok. Perhaps if we make a good lynch we can persuade the remaining mafia to jump ship. I agree that we'll be more likely to extract a confession later on in the game than right now (hindsight is helping a lot here). Other than possibly New Guy and Soundman who are yet to comment, we won't be getting a free confession this early.

Anyway, the payoff matrix of the plan I envisioned with a confession was this:

T/T - always wins when confessions is made
T/M or M/T- loses if confession is made by someone else, but breaks even* when the confession is made by themselves
M/M - always loses when confessions are made, unless they make a confession themselves and ride their fake town credit on the other game

*breaking even is obviously a rough estimation since it is highly situational - maybe your scumbuddies are usually scummy (think Shield or VS) and you think the game is a lost cause from D1, so you might as well give up there to raise your chances on the other side. Honestly, I'm not really interested in thinking whether they'd perceive the deal to be good or not. The deal is there and if they decide to take it I'll make sure T/T players reap its benefits. That's as simple as it gets.

thats the only way u can be one hundred percent that there not lying about anything

Why would you assume I'd be 100% sure? I've covered that more than once already. Never mentioned 100% certainty.

Just read up on every thing and I Shall FoS Rodion and possible vote until further notice.

Can you give a reason to go with your FOS, if that's not too much to ask?

[new guy1]

I havent responded because I am breaking my brain trying to figure out connections having to do with my roles (in other words between town A and B). I guess all I can say is i support Rodion's idea, but its pretty much a lost cause. I doubt that any mafia in their right minds would take that kind of a deal.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

Your missing the point that I think you are concealing something. If I am town here why would I want you to go and trick people? As I have said, the argument doesn't make a lot of sense, and you being a fairly veteran player should know that. The conclusion is that you know more then you let on. THAT is what I am arguing about, not the specific details of your plan.

I definitely am concealing something. It's one of those plans that should be revealed on a need to know basis. The thing I "know" more than what I'm currently letting on is the specifics of how to orchestrate the rest of the plan (after confessions are made).

What's irking me is that a town/town player (which everyone should be pretending to be unless they accept a deal) has nothing to lose by seeing someone else confess (technically, I'm the only one bound by the deal to consider the confesser almost cleared in the other game), yet several of you seem to be shooting down my idea.

So how long were you going to give for someone to take your deal? Also, how can I trust you Rodion based on all that you said being "you're town/town" which is basically what every single mafia player says.

I don't want to discourage confessions, so I don't want to establish any hard time constraint.
You can't trust me, but the point I am trying to make is that a T/T player has NOTHING TO LOSE by seeing a T/M or M/T confess (ffs, we are getting a freebie lynch!).

Also, human nature is to win as much as possible (cue Charlie Sheen joke). I figure nobody is biting because everyone wants as great a possibility as possible for winning both games. You can't singlehandedly guarantee that someone who takes the deal will win one of their games. I maybe could see this deal working towards LYLO, but right now with Day 1, there are so many possibilities out there that the deal really offers nothing concrete to anyone, town or mafia.

That's a good point. It's possible that people are willing to risk the double T/M or M/T win, but it's ok. Perhaps if we make a good lynch we can persuade the remaining mafia to jump ship. I agree that we'll be more likely to extract a confession later on in the game than right now (hindsight is helping a lot here). Other than possibly New Guy and Soundman who are yet to comment, we won't be getting a free confession this early.

Anyway, the payoff matrix of the plan I envisioned with a confession was this:

T/T - always wins when confessions is made
T/M or M/T- loses if confession is made by someone else, but breaks even* when the confession is made by themselves
M/M - always loses when confessions are made, unless they make a confession themselves and ride their fake town credit on the other game

*breaking even is obviously a rough estimation since it is highly situational - maybe your scumbuddies are usually scummy (think Shield or VS) and you think the game is a lost cause from D1, so you might as well give up there to raise your chances on the other side. Honestly, I'm not really interested in thinking whether they'd perceive the deal to be good or not. The deal is there and if they decide to take it I'll make sure T/T players reap its benefits. That's as simple as it gets.

thats the only way u can be one hundred percent that there not lying about anything

.
Why would you assume I'd be 100% sure? I've covered that more than once already. Never mentioned 100% certainty

Just read up on every thing and I Shall FoS Rodion and possible vote until further notice.

Can you give a reason to go with your FOS, if that's not too much to ask?

And in saying this your also saying that your not 100% sure this plan will work ..like I said...one hole is enough for mafia to slip through so if people wanna take that chance be my guest it has nothing to do with me so as far as im concerned my part in this conversation is over.

[pancakemix]

Rodion, there are three things I am interested in:

1. Chasing a potential victory in a game of the mind.
2. Achieving that victory in the best possible fashion for me.
3. Enduring a challenge while pursuing that victory, thus enhancing my enjoyment of it.

Your suggestion ruins all three of those things for me. If we do follow your plan, it will only be because we gamed the system. I won't enjoy that. I'll feel robbed. And for that reason I'm retaining my vote on you. In addition, without full disclosure from you in what you're asking from us, there can be no safety. There can be no trust. And asking, nay, demanding it without reciprocating will not get you anywhere. It will just get you lynched.

[Rodion]

I'm not demanding anything. I made players that fit into a specific criterium an offer that they can choose to take or not. They did not. Tough luck, we'll have to do this the hard way, at least for now.

Did I understand correctly that you are voting me because my approach is sucking the fun out of the game? How do you intend to chase and achieve a victory while your votes are not placed into people you perceive to be scummy?

[pancakemix]

I'm not demanding anything. I made players that fit into a specific criterium an offer that they can choose to take or not. They did not. Tough luck, we'll have to do this the hard way, at least for now.

Did I understand correctly that you are voting me because my approach is sucking the fun out of the game? How do you intend to chase and achieve a victory while your votes are not placed into people you perceive to be scummy?

Except for that I do perceive your offer as scummy, or at least the way you went about it. You can't expect people to reveal a huge portion of their role without similar honesty and for an unclear purpose. It's just not going to happen. So my vote, then, is twofold in reasoning.

Given the first part of your post, I take it you're backing off from your offer?

[Rodion]

Except for that I do perceive your offer as scummy, or at least the way you went about it. You can't expect people to reveal a huge portion of their role without similar honesty and for an unclear purpose. It's just not going to happen.

Similar honesty = promising that we won't accidentally kill/BW the person's town role
Clear purpose = finding mafia in one game and most likely clearing a townie in the other so both towns get closer to a win.

I just did not disclose the step by step of "player A confessed, what now?" because that could frustrate the plan. But, quite honestly, if you do a mental exercise on what is the best course of action that needs to be taken after a confession you'll probably figure the step by step for yourself.

So my vote, then, is twofold in reasoning.

That's perfectly cool as long as you move your vote away from me should you ever consider someone more scummy (and quite frankly I can't see how I'm being scummy for trying to get mafia to confess). I'll take (more) issue with it if you park your vote on me out of spite for the way I play. I know we have butted heads more than once regarding our playing styles. You heavily disliked my plan covering night actions in GP: Greek and you expressed a similar feeling when I replaced back into NBC with another plan (my plans were solid in both games by the way and town only lost GP: Greek because you guys decided my Hermes role was too weird to be believable and therefore threw my gameplan out of the window). And now this. Perhaps you are an old school guy with an old school modus operandi and you're bothered by the way I play (it's your prerogative). Just make sure that negativeness is not going to protect scummier people simply because you may have a grudge with me (this whole paragraph can be disregarded if you are not town/town).

Given the first part of your post, I take it you're backing off from your offer?

The offer stands in that if someone shows good faith by claiming to be mafia in one game, I'll reward their good faith by considering them most likely town in the other one. I'm not going to actively pursue a confession because:
a) it's not necessary (I've already been sufficiently clear regarding what they need to forfeit and what they get in return)
b) I've realized it's unlikely to happen in the near future
c) I'm not liking the heat my actions are taking and it goes without saying that I value my life too much to get lynched (even as VT, as can be seen in NBC mafia)

Being that "c" is hands down the biggest reason and that Soundman is the only one that did not weigh in on the current issue, I say we move on from the deal conversation onto some actual scumhunting. I find CMS's shot on me the cheapest since he did not bother to provide a reason at all. Can anyone suggest someone scummier?

[soundman]

I wouldn't FOS or vote Rodion at all. Even though I don't think his plan would work, it does no harm to the town. I don't see why everyone is going after Rodion for suggesting a plan that can only help town. Even if you don't think it would work or if you think it takes some of the fun out of the game.

[/]

@MOD: to clarify things, if we die in one side, we can still post about that other side in the side we're still alive in, right?

Yes, that is correct.

[crazymilkshake5]

Just read up on every thing and I Shall FoS Rodion and possible vote until further notice.

Can you give a reason to go with your FOS, if that's not too much to ask?

I find your offer quite scummy and with your quick "i'm town" doesnt help the situation either,