Battle of the Bulge - CLOSED

by **everywhere116** on Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:44 pm

@ pmc v Rodion

If I had to pick a overall winner of this slugfest, I would have to pick Rodion. I can see his point that, given the circumstances, new guy's lie would have been acceptable (although both sides agree that he did not lie, so it's kind of a moot point.) I also have expressed concern over Doom's rabid certainty over new guy's guilt at the cost to logic.

I also have something interesting to add to this post:

Rodion PG 101 wrote:Yoshi is one of the boldest players I know. It is likely that, as mafia, he could have directed the vig while feeling confident that he'd survive.

Did you realize Yoshi does not even BELIEVE he should be held accountable in case someone had vigged NG and he had flipped town?

He made that clear when he said "directing the vig" is analogous to a "FOS", while vigging is analogous to "vote". Want more? This quote:

DoomYoshi wrote:Now, if new guy had been vigged, would it have been my fault? Only if I was the vig. (although he would have turned up scum, so we wouldn't have had this convo).

See? Not his fault.

That is how he thinks.

I was going to point out that I don't remember Doom ever saying this, and that it in fact contradicts Doom's attitudes as shown here:

DoomYoshi PG 99 wrote:Ok, Rodion, if it is so scummy to direct the vig (you probably know that I will never say directing power roles is scummy under any circumstances); and the vig had listened, and I was wrong I would have been accountable for it today.

As such, if I am wrong about new guy, vig me tonight or lynch me tomorrow.

Nobody would say anything like that; unless they knew. It is damnable evidence. New guy admitted to being mafia.

However, when I was looking for that one I saw that Doom actually did say what he said in Rodion's post, so it wasn't Rodion contradicting Doom, it was Doom contradicting himself. The question then becomes: Is there a good reason for your change of opinion about your accountability in new guy's (hypothetical) death, Doom?

@saf

If pmc and Rodion don't want to continue their slugfest and if nothing comes of my question to Doom, that seems to be the best alternative now. Big if, though.

by **Ragian** on Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:59 pm

Nice point, everywhere. I never realised he contradicted himself.

by **DoomYoshi** on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:18 pm

It is only an apparent contradiction. When. Say it is not my fault, that is how I feel about it morally. When i say accountability it refers to my relationship with town.

So whether or not it is my fault, I would have to explain myself to town.

I offered my life in exchange for new guys as I am almost certain he is scum. If I have to sit and reread something and I still have no idea what the hell he is talking about until Later, when furer information is revealed, I know that the person speaking cryptically knew the information beforehand. For instance:

.mucs si noidoR kniht llits I.

by **DoomYoshi** on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:30 pm

Now in the next post I reveal that the code is reading the message backwards.

Now I am going to deny that I knew the code to begin with. I only found out about the code later.

Srsly, if I am wrong, don't even just vig/lynch me. Blacklist me if you want.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw Rodion, thanks for trying to set me up as a peeping tom. However, new guy made his drunkenness part of the game when he used it as a defense. If being drunk is a valid defense, then I am allowed to blow holes in it.

Second, in Back to the Future Mafia, a personal story defense was blown up and killed the lying player.

I don't care what you imbibe. I'm a Libertarian. What I do care about is you lying to town to save your own hide.

by **new guy1** on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:35 pm

Well doom, I dont believe you are scum and I know myself to be town (wifom, deal with it). Even though you want me vigged last minute and you then continue to pressure me the next day with a bad case (IMO), I dont think your scum... Just saying.

by **DoomYoshi** on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:44 pm

sigh.

vote leehar

let's get this done safariguy

by **safariguy5** on Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:23 pm

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say don't Meta about real life (although if someone WERE to get me that 1000 dollar an hour prostitute, I would definitely brag about it).

My point is that there's no way we can confirm/refute what someone did or didn't do, so the best thing to do is just ignore it unless it seriously affects the game (i.e. someone going on vacation).

unvote vote Leehar

by **Ragian** on Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:03 am

I'll bandwaggon for the silent guy (the most silent guy that is). Let's get him to contribute even though it seems we've run out of ... well ... everything.

unvote vote leehar

by **pmchugh** on Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:14 am

Ragian wrote:
pmchugh wrote:
Ragian wrote:But surely you don't go after anyone just because they're experienced? I thought that was a joke ...

I never went after him purely because he was experienced, I went after him because I think he is suspicious. Him being experienced is just a pain in the arse.

I know, mate. I was referring to SG7 ...

Ah my bad, I was wondering why your post made zero sense to me :lol:

DoomYoshi wrote:It is only an apparent contradiction. When. Say it is not my fault, that is how I feel about it morally. When i say accountability it refers to my relationship with town.

So whether or not it is my fault, I would have to explain myself to town.

I offered my life in exchange for new guys as I am almost certain he is scum. If I have to sit and reread something and I still have no idea what the hell he is talking about until Later, when furer information is revealed, I know that the person speaking cryptically knew the information beforehand. For instance:

.mucs si noidoR kniht llits I.

I'm sorry doom but it is clearly a contradiction, how can you be accountable for something but not at fault if it goes badly?

Also

DoomYoshi wrote:I offered my life in exchange for new guys as I am almost certain he is scum. If I have to sit and reread something and I still have no idea what the hell he is talking about until Later, when furer information is revealed, I know that the person speaking cryptically knew the information beforehand. For instance:.

DoomYoshi wrote:If I have to sit and reread something and I still have no idea what the hell he is talking about until Later, when furer information is revealed, I know that the person speaking cryptically knew the information beforehand.

DoomYoshi wrote:I still have no idea what the hell he is talking about until Later, when furer information is revealed,

DoomYoshi wrote: when furer information is revealed,

DoomYoshi wrote:furer

by **DoomYoshi** on Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:08 pm

How can you say it is not a contradiction?

I am already being held accountable for it and the kill hasn't even happened! If it happened it wouldn't be my fault though. That is a difference that has already happened Ffs.

by **pmchugh** on Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:42 am

DoomYoshi wrote:How can you say it is not a contradiction?

I am already being held accountable for it and the kill hasn't even happened! If it happened it wouldn't be my fault though. That is a difference that has already happened Ffs.

DoomYoshi PG 99 wrote:Ok, Rodion, if it is so scummy to direct the vig (you probably know that I will never say directing power roles is scummy under any circumstances); and the vig had listened, and I was wrong I would have been accountable for it today.

Maybe this is poorly worded but it reads to me that you admit that it would have been your fault had the vig killed newguy and you were wrong.

by **Ragian** on Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:53 am

That's how I read it too...

by **Some7hingCLEVER** on Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:23 am

sorry i have been gone for a few days i am moving today but am waiting so why not mafia right?

i dont think i can use the fact that we were intoxicated to mean i dont think he is scum. anyway i believe him beyond that point and i REALLY dont think that doom should have directed the vig. it is a big scum move in my part. ill post more later but im trying to read all my games so ill be back.

by **DoomYoshi** on Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:59 pm

Ok, let me try a different definition.

Held accountable: town thinks It is my fault
Being guilty: I think it is my fault

There is a fundamental difference here. Perhaps my language was a bit unusual, but this is the point I am trying to make here.

Also, meta from RL can be proven. E.g. If clever logged on and said: "new guy never drinks" then we would have caught him in a lie. This is not what happened, and I hereby formally drop the point.

by **everywhere116** on Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:33 pm

Well, while I think that you're being incredibly pedantic about the contradictions, I can't fault you for listening to logic.

Unvote vote Leehar

That's L-3 by my count.

by **Ragian** on Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:14 am

Speaking of RL, I am going to the Ukraine to watch the Euro Cup tomorrow afternoon and I'll be gone till Tuesday 19. I don't think I can ask my sitters to walk through 100 pages in order to keep me in the game. If you know of anyone who wants to replace me, I'll accept that though I want to play (never realised the game would go on for so long).

Either way, I'm here till tomorrow afternoon and I don't know if I can check in from the Ukraine, but I doubt it.

by **pmchugh** on Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:27 am

Ragian wrote:Speaking of RL, I am going to the Ukraine to watch the Euro Cup tomorrow afternoon and I'll be gone till Tuesday 19. I don't think I can ask my sitters to walk through 100 pages in order to keep me in the game. If you know of anyone who wants to replace me, I'll accept that though I want to play (never realised the game would go on for so long).

Either way, I'm here till tomorrow afternoon and I don't know if I can check in from the Ukraine, but I doubt it.

I'm so jealous! What games you gonna see?

Also: The mod needs to specifically prod Leehar, and give us a vote count.

by **Ragian** on Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:43 am

pmchugh wrote:
Ragian wrote:Speaking of RL, I am going to the Ukraine to watch the Euro Cup tomorrow afternoon and I'll be gone till Tuesday 19. I don't think I can ask my sitters to walk through 100 pages in order to keep me in the game. If you know of anyone who wants to replace me, I'll accept that though I want to play (never realised the game would go on for so long).

Either way, I'm here till tomorrow afternoon and I don't know if I can check in from the Ukraine, but I doubt it.

I'm so jealous! What games you gonna see?

Also: The mod needs to specifically prod Leehar, and give us a vote count.

Watching Denmark - Portugal and then Denmark - Germany. Going to the pub in a few to see Ireland have a crack at it too.

I'm contacting the mod to check if he has a reserve ready. Though at this pace, no one will realise that I'm gone for a week :roll:

by **ghostly447** on Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:03 pm

I has access to another computer after this long? I forgot what a keyboard was! I will get a vote count up immedietely. I am so sorry, I need to start getting used to doing these things from my phone. haha.

Vote count coming up!

by **ghostly447** on Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:24 pm

Official Simplified Vote Count

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

New guy1 - Jak
DoomYoshi - Rodion
Leehar - DoomYoshi, Safariguy, Ragian, Everywhere (L-3)
Rodion - SG7

Deadline 6/12/12 9pm EST