Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

[jonty125]

Hmm, vote vodean I can't believe that Paul would be
a) 3rd party
AND
b) "of the cross"

[jgordon1111]

Now I think I have a pretty good grasp. Jak you keep backing VIO, because of her Win condition First lie. Jak you claim to have mis voted second Lie.

Nice try on the win condition Vio but incorrect for either humans or angels.

Outrageous I am inclined to believe vodean just because of the damn claim. and I have said since day one Cult,by reading my role there can only be a cult style play going on.

Back to Jak. D1 I told you I would be there if you slipped. What worried me is you gave up your info way to easy. That is something you have never done before to my knowledge. You are not just a vote stealer jak,you were in on the kill last night. And constantly trying to clear Vio who got the win condition wrong is your worst mistake of all.

Vote Jak to many inconsitincies in what you have said and what you are doing.

[samgrossy]

Now I think I have a pretty good grasp. Jak you keep backing VIO, because of her Win condition First lie. Jak you claim to have mis voted second Lie.

Nice try on the win condition Vio but incorrect for either humans or angels.

Outrageous I am inclined to believe vodean just because of the damn claim. and I have said since day one Cult,by reading my role there can only be a cult style play going on.

Back to Jak. D1 I told you I would be there if you slipped. What worried me is you gave up your info way to easy. That is something you have never done before to my knowledge. You are not just a vote stealer jak,you were in on the kill last night. And constantly trying to clear Vio who got the win condition wrong is your worst mistake of all.

Vote Jak to many inconsitincies in what you have said and what you are doing.

I believe you on this statement and this is part of my own case against Jak, but we are getting better info on the game as a whole if we follow the set up that we have been discussing. While I'm not accusing you of skimming, I will ask for you to go back and read through the ideas on the last few pages. If you don't agree with the method, say why you don't, and give us a better idea. That would help.

For everyone, I am quickly finding out that the biggest advantage that mafia has is they get to plan and talk things over privately then act together as a unit. The more the town acts as a unit the more likely we are to win. That's why I think the fact that we have developed a workable plan is going to get us further than if we all act independently.

[aage]

For everyone, I am quickly finding out that the biggest advantage that mafia has is they get to plan and talk things over privately then act together as a unit. The more the town acts as a unit the more likely we are to win. That's why I think the fact that we have developed a workable plan is going to get us further than if we all act independently.

I disagree. Mafia can only ever talk at night. Only if we were to tell them what we are planning to do the next day would they be able to make useful plans, so I suggest we don't do that. (And before anyone calls wifom, the wifom ends here because the mafia aren't going to tell us what their plans are.) Secondly, and I'm sure you're aware of this, the mafia is among town, so saying town should act like one unit is much like saying "gosh, wouldn't it be incredibly useful if we just knew who the scum were". I don't see why you're advocating this.

Now I think I have a pretty good grasp. Jak you keep backing VIO, because of her Win condition First lie. Jak you claim to have mis voted second Lie.

Nice try on the win condition Vio but incorrect for either humans or angels.

Outrageous I am inclined to believe vodean just because of the damn claim. and I have said since day one Cult,by reading my role there can only be a cult style play going on.

Back to Jak. D1 I told you I would be there if you slipped. What worried me is you gave up your info way to easy. That is something you have never done before to my knowledge. You are not just a vote stealer jak,you were in on the kill last night. And constantly trying to clear Vio who got the win condition wrong is your worst mistake of all.

Vote Jak to many inconsitincies in what you have said and what you are doing.

Well this is quite a serious accusation. Despite the fact that I agree it's odd he clears vio I wonder how you seem to be aware of both the human and the angel win condition, and also somehow tracked Jak. I'm going to wait for a reply from Jak though, because this should get interesting.

[blakebowling]

For similar reasons why the Aage case is good for tomorrow. You have outed yourself as 100% not angel and if you are a saint as well, I do not understand your

thats a fantastic case you have against me. i can feel the noose tightening around my neck. please, someone present a real case. like my earlier cases against jak, or against spiesr.

"real cases" against me earlier. If you are a saint you should know EXACTLY why I messed up earlier D2. If you were a saint you'd have the decency to CLAIM your person at the very least without this stalling. Or are you afraid? You're among the wagon that had 4 non towns in it, so if you were a saint, you'd claim in hopes to help town instead of hindering it by not giving it hindsight to the imposing lynch.

I suppose I could be reading into your post too much, but this line keeps jumping out at me. I can't recall nor find anything that signifies that Jak messed up in D2.

As far as vodean's claim, I could be inclined to believe the role in this game, however not the flavor (i.e. third party). I'm leaving my vote on vodean for now.

[jak111]

Now I think I have a pretty good grasp. Jak you keep backing VIO, because of her Win condition First lie. Jak you claim to have mis voted second Lie.

Nice try on the win condition Vio but incorrect for either humans or angels.

Outrageous I am inclined to believe vodean just because of the damn claim. and I have said since day one Cult,by reading my role there can only be a cult style play going on.

Back to Jak. D1 I told you I would be there if you slipped. What worried me is you gave up your info way to easy. That is something you have never done before to my knowledge. You are not just a vote stealer jak,you were in on the kill last night. And constantly trying to clear Vio who got the win condition wrong is your worst mistake of all.

Vote Jak to many inconsitincies in what you have said and what you are doing.

Oh wow, today is full of good leads. First we have one scratched off as non town whether he's mafia or truly third party (Vodean, if we can't pin scum today, I hate to break it to you, but you're being hung like dinner).

Now for JG's post. I believe we have found a SECOND non town. If you were a saint, you'd know the win condition. Hence a reason why I cleared Vio, with JG's post scum/third party obviously didn't know the win condition word for word. While vio isn't 100% clear, she's cleared in my eyes more than most of you. If we can find 4 non towns on that list, everyone else would be 100% clear.

JG, you say I was in on the killing last night. If you are going to accuse me of something like that, I suggest you claim. This is another reason why I know you are not town, town would not try to kill off town with a fake claim. If you were a town tracker, you wouldn't have me on the dead. You wouldn't have me on anyone because I targeted someone not in the game, hence I do not have my stolen vote with me.

Check D2, proof of my stolen vote was with me on each vote count, it was ALWAYS right after my vote.

Thoughts on the list right now...

Saf
jonty
soundman
violet
aage
JG ~ Scum or 3rd party
Nag
DRoZ ~ Pretty much confirmed Watcher, watched Aage, targeted by Sam and is now confirmed that Sam visited Aage.
jak ~ Confirmed Vote Stealer (Alignment is questioned by some of you, but as far as the role goes, it is 100% confirmed from D2)
Strike
Vodean ~ 3rd party or scum claiming 3rd party

With 2 of 4 non town found, I think I can rest assured my reading on Vio is right and that DRoZ is town.

Until JG fully claims, I suggest no angel/saint counter claim him.

So boys, 2 more non towns to find and we can literally clear the rest 100%

[jak111]

I also quickly thought of another thing, my belief that of Aage and Strike that one is town and the other is 3rd party/mafia still stands in my head, so if we can find out the one of those two only 1 more non town would remain of a smaller list.

[aage]

I still don't know what jg means with the 'misvoting', but I'd like to respond to something Jak said. But I can't resist mentioning that

Now for JG's post. I believe we have found a SECOND non town.

well that OMGUS was totally unexpected. If they're not with you they're your enemy, amirite?

JG, you say I was in on the killing last night. If you are going to accuse me of something like that, I suggest you claim. This is another reason why I know you are not town, town would not try to kill off town with a fake claim. If you were a town tracker, you wouldn't have me on the dead. You wouldn't have me on anyone because I targeted someone not in the game, hence I do not have my stolen vote with me.

About that. I am really trying to believe that you are who you say you are, because most evidence points to town, but I have a hard time believing that Edoc would let you target someone who's not in this game. Didn't he warn you or anything? I mean, the night was only friggin' five days long. I know I would have warned if I were mod.

[jak111]

He told me once day was started, there were a lot of late actions is probably why I wasn't warned.

No, the reason why JG is non town is because he is no tracker. It's one thing to be against me, it's another to claim something I didn't do. So if his claim is tracker or anything of that sort, he's lying, which would lead to the obvious non town argument.

[jgordon1111]

I still don't know what jg means with the 'misvoting', but I'd like to respond to something Jak said. But I can't resist mentioning that

Now for JG's post. I believe we have found a SECOND non town.

well that OMGUS was totally unexpected. If they're not with you they're your enemy, amirite?

JG, you say I was in on the killing last night. If you are going to accuse me of something like that, I suggest you claim. This is another reason why I know you are not town, town would not try to kill off town with a fake claim. If you were a town tracker, you wouldn't have me on the dead. You wouldn't have me on anyone because I targeted someone not in the game, hence I do not have my stolen vote with me.

About that. I am really trying to believe that you are who you say you are, because most evidence points to town, but I have a hard time believing that Edoc would let you target someone who's not in this game. Didn't he warn you or anything? I mean, the night was only friggin' five days long. I know I would have warned if I were mod.

You are correct, I thought long and hard before on jaks mis vote claim, So I asked a simple question of Edoc to make sure of something.

I got my answer,jak my role cannot be counter claimed. You lie and in your haste to try and turn the tide quick,you jumped out there and tried to CYA by telling everyone dont counter claim me.

You slipped I got you. And I am not skimming cannot remember who said that exactly, but look a few posts prior to were it was stated I was, I cuncurred with the Idea but suggested to shortening those lists a little. Just to be really safe so everyone can believe I am not scum once we decide our case today majority pick who to lynch and I will cast the only vote. End of story as to which side I am on.

[strike wolf]

Interesting. I believe I know what LG's claim is. I will let him state it himself.

[vodean]

i never said outright that it was an active role. I am Paul of the cross, 3rd party commuter.
I realize that you may not want to keep me around, but my role also has a cryptic section about how St. Paul's following may provide me with information about some of the kills if certain things happen or something like that (again, very vague). the only info i got last night was that last night's kill was by the mafia.... im guessing that since St. Paul's following grew over time that my info will slowly get better.

Commuter is often a fake-claim. Doing a bit of bad meta here, but the commuter role has appeared 3 times in my past games, and all three times they were a fake-claim. Maybe a coincidence, maybe not.

But even if Vodean is telling the truth, I don't see this as a role really worth saving.

I do like the case on aage, and I believe it's worth exploring tomorrow.

Unvote

Vote Vodean

thats funny. i have not only been commuter, but have seen other commuters and used a commuter as a mod.

i realize that it sounds like cult, but i have no recruiting ability. i cant recruit since im a commuter, so im out of town.

jak, i think its funny how you think you can decide the lynch. you and vio. you are backing eachother up, and working together. you must be masoned, and since you didnt claim mason, it makes me think that you are mafia. so you and your little friend should stop. people starting through you now.

[jgordon1111]

Interesting. I believe I know what LG's claim is. I will let him state it himself.

Waiting to see what jak comes up with next before I say a word. D1 I pretty much outted my alignment and the strong possibility of cult play.

He now most likely knows my role,he threw another one out to test the water in case more than one person was on him I believe,he needs to figure which one of three I am. Odds are good you will guess right Jak.

Lets hear what you have now.

[jak111]

Interesting. I believe I know what LG's claim is. I will let him state it himself.

Waiting to see what jak comes up with next before I say a word. D1 I pretty much outted my alignment and the strong possibility of cult play.

He now most likely knows my role,he threw another one out to test the water in case more than one person was on him I believe,he needs to figure which one of three I am. Odds are good you will guess right Jak.

Lets hear what you have now.

Simple, you are mafia. Thank you for confirming it with me, if you were town and had any power you'd know me to be town, but since you are not town it tells me why you are trying to push this.

I'll be blunt because I know you're not town, whatever three you're talking about I have no clue, but I do know that you are not town aligned.

So claim away JG, which mafia role are you? Framer? Roleblocker? Busdriver? Silencer? What?

[vodean]

Interesting. I believe I know what LG's claim is. I will let him state it himself.

Waiting to see what jak comes up with next before I say a word. D1 I pretty much outted my alignment and the strong possibility of cult play.

He now most likely knows my role,he threw another one out to test the water in case more than one person was on him I believe,he needs to figure which one of three I am. Odds are good you will guess right Jak.

Lets hear what you have now.

Simple, you are mafia. Thank you for confirming it with me, if you were town and had any power you'd know me to be town, but since you are not town it tells me why you are trying to push this.

I'll be blunt because I know you're not town, whatever three you're talking about I have no clue, but I do know that you are not town aligned.

So claim away JG, which mafia role are you? Framer? Roleblocker? Busdriver? Silencer? What?

so what you are saying is that you think everyone who is pressuring you is mafia, and that vio, who is supporting you, must be town. and essentially, we are evil demons who raped your sister and stalked you for 5 years. ok, yomiel. i confess. im scum.

[jak111]

so what you are saying is that you think everyone who is pressuring you is mafia, and that vio, who is supporting you, must be town. and essentially, we are evil demons who raped your sister and stalked you for 5 years. ok, yomiel. i confess. im scum.

Check again, I know JG is not town for the simple reason that I know myself town. So for him to say his role says otherwise, I'd know to be a lie. Hence, me calling him out on it.

[jgordon1111]

so what you are saying is that you think everyone who is pressuring you is mafia, and that vio, who is supporting you, must be town. and essentially, we are evil demons who raped your sister and stalked you for 5 years. ok, yomiel. i confess. im scum.

Check again, I know JG is not town for the simple reason that I know myself town. So for him to say his role says otherwise, I'd know to be a lie. Hence, me calling him out on it.

LOL jak you were made to use your role last night,you didnt steal a vote despite what you say about a mistake on it, that leaves you being in on the kill.

Now I am calling you out on that. remember I made sure of my action before you answer. You made some mistakes that were way out of character for you Jak,declaring your role and all out protection of Vio though there is no proof of her being clear,if this was the case I declared my alignment D1 as well so by this reasoning you should have cleared me as well.

Back to Back mistakes jak. because just by her saying she is town doesnt make it so. No way you could be that clear on her alignment and not on mine by your own reasoning. And you dont go all out on protecting someone like that unless you have a good reason. Your logic on this is flawed your arguement is flawed which means you are lying for a reason. The only one I can think of is your scum and Vio is as well.

[safariguy5]

This is interesting. I must have missed what strike picked up on. From a flavor perspective, if Vio can find Angels, and there are indeed 7, then it's a role with some utility. The kicker is that outing those people as angels is basically painting a big bullseye on their back.

And vodean, for you to say that you've seen/used commuters before is not indicative of your claim being any truer. By the same token Vio, correlation does not equal causation and just because commuter was a fakeclaim doesn't mean it's necessarily a fakeclaim this time too.

I'd like to see where this jak/jgordon thing goes, but if vodean is claiming a third party role, I'd be fine with the "safer" lynch and cross someone off the list now.

[vodean]

so what you are saying is that you think everyone who is pressuring you is mafia, and that vio, who is supporting you, must be town. and essentially, we are evil demons who raped your sister and stalked you for 5 years. ok, yomiel. i confess. im scum.

Check again, I know JG is not town for the simple reason that I know myself town. So for him to say his role says otherwise, I'd know to be a lie. Hence, me calling him out on it.

thats circular logic. you say that you are town because JG is scum which you know because you are town.

[aage]

This is interesting. I must have missed what strike picked up on. From a flavor perspective, if Vio can find Angels, and there are indeed 7, then it's a role with some utility. The kicker is that outing those people as angels is basically painting a big bullseye on their back.

And vodean, for you to say that you've seen/used commuters before is not indicative of your claim being any truer. By the same token Vio, correlation does not equal causation and just because commuter was a fakeclaim doesn't mean it's necessarily a fakeclaim this time too.

I'd like to see where this jak/jgordon thing goes, but if vodean is claiming a third party role, I'd be fine with the "safer" lynch and cross someone off the list now.

Lsu has that role now, not Violet.

Anyway, Jak being the stubborn player he has always been I'll tell you what I know and guess. I think we've known jg's alignment for sure since this post and Lsu's angelhood confirmation. It seems that humans can be "subverted" (which is a weird way of phrasing it, but I assume it's in your role pm somewhere because you only said it three times in that post). Lsu had been talking about cult recruitment for quite a bit so I assume the angels know more about that. Obviously I wasn't going to say anything because my guess is that the angels do not want to be outed: gregwolf even specifically said he was afraid of scum finding out his role. Jg, if you want me to stop speculating on the flavor openly please say so.

[jonty125]

thats circular logic. you say that you are town because JG is scum which you know because you are town.

Yeah, couldn't of summed it up better. I think jak you need to be more explicit.

[jak111]

See, this is the problem. Without any investigative role I can't do anything more than be blunt about this. JG is scum, hoping to get me out of the way (although what will you gain? You'll be dead tomorrow when I flip town). Whichever of JG or Vodean survives the day, the survivor wont be using their scum vote tomorrow, I can promise that much.

Again, the attack is made against me that I'm protecting Vio just because she claimed. She's the first to state why I was confused and exactly what it was that made me confused about it. Now she is further cleared in my eyes with 2 non towns being found and only 2 more remaining on the wagon from yesterday.

Another thing I love is that people are now sheeping JG when he wont confirm his role. Afraid of a role counter claim? If you claim Tracker I know you're wrong and if you claim anything else you're either insane or crazy.

I can't use a second vote because EVERYONE has their vote because I targeted the wrong person. I'll prove it, I told Edoc to put my second vote up with my forum vote unless I specifically ask for him not to.

Vote Vodean With any apparent second vote I have.

You wont see a ??? vote because I targeted the wrong person last night.

LOL jak you were made to use your role last night

Now please, direct your attention to the big bold word in the quote above and then reread it with that one word in mind. Who made me? Did you make me? This quote plus the few words after it are evidence that he knows something that I do not know myself.

So I suggest you start claiming JG. Your role is not confirmed and I hate to tell Aage this, but he has a wrong read on you. Your 'soft claiming' is of two different things right now. One is tracker where you tracked me to the killed (which I know is wrong). The second is where you KNOW I was FORCED to use my role last night. Which I know isn't true as well otherwise I'd have been told so, which I wasn't.

Claim your role and quit wasting my time. Because there's only two options at the moment.
1.) You're scum.
2.) You're a townie with wrong info, which I can only examine if you claim what you saw and what you are.

I'd hate to lynch a fellow town just because he was out right wrong against me.

[jgordon1111]

See, this is the problem. Without any investigative role I can't do anything more than be blunt about this. JG is scum, hoping to get me out of the way (although what will you gain? You'll be dead tomorrow when I flip town). Whichever of JG or Vodean survives the day, the survivor wont be using their scum vote tomorrow, I can promise that much.

Again, the attack is made against me that I'm protecting Vio just because she claimed. She's the first to state why I was confused and exactly what it was that made me confused about it. Now she is further cleared in my eyes with 2 non towns being found and only 2 more remaining on the wagon from yesterday.

Another thing I love is that people are now sheeping JG when he wont confirm his role. Afraid of a role counter claim? If you claim Tracker I know you're wrong and if you claim anything else you're either insane or crazy.

I can't use a second vote because EVERYONE has their vote because I targeted the wrong person. I'll prove it, I told Edoc to put my second vote up with my forum vote unless I specifically ask for him not to.

Vote Vodean With any apparent second vote I have.

You wont see a ??? vote because I targeted the wrong person last night.

LOL jak you were made to use your role last night

Now please, direct your attention to the big bold word in the quote above and then reread it with that one word in mind. Who made me? Did you make me? This quote plus the few words after it are evidence that he knows something that I do not know myself.

So I suggest you start claiming JG. Your role is not confirmed and I hate to tell Aage this, but he has a wrong read on you. Your 'soft claiming' is of two different things right now. One is tracker where you tracked me to the killed (which I know is wrong). The second is where you KNOW I was FORCED to use my role last night. Which I know isn't true as well otherwise I'd have been told so, which I wasn't.

Claim your role and quit wasting my time. Because there's only two options at the moment.
1.) You're scum.
2.) You're a townie with wrong info, which I can only examine if you claim what you saw and what you are.

I'd hate to lynch a fellow town just because he was out right wrong against me.

I have never claimed tracker,and I suspect Edoc wouldnt Bastard Mod so you are lying,you didnt vote the wrong person because I believe you have other capabilities,so to cover that you claimed a mis vote, You JAK were my target last night,had to get Edoc to confirm my action was completed.
IT WAS confirmed that means you lie about who you are and what you can do,beings no vote was taken. Not going to let you slide on the mis vote thing,first I dont see you making that mistake,second I dont see Edoc letting that slide.

so putting that together leads me to,you stole a vote:normally reserved for scum. now one of the most experienced players claiming to mis vote: scum action to hide what you really did. so I see you now as scum Joat protecting Vio.

As I said just because Vio soft claimed and gave you cover to clear your mistake does not make either of you town,with that reasoning again you should have cleared me as well. Your not town Jak.

Why on earth (forgive the pun) would you as town D1 with no clear idea who was who steal a vote if you were town? and then not be able to do it again D2? claiming a mis vote to cover it.

As I said before majority decides who to lynch today. Just for the sake of arguement a vote stealer isnt a big loss,we select you and I cast the only vote on you at that time. Chap steps in and and my alignment is confirmed,to all town and third party. And as you can tell A you are close to spot on.

[aage]

I think it should be mentioned that we shouldn't disregard the possibility that humans and angels have different win conditions, since if the subvert-thing is in the angel role pm but not in the human role pm. It's not in my role pm anyway, I found out about it through Lsu's and jgordon's posts, so I suppose it is also not in Jak's (or violet's, or other claimed humans') role pms.

All of that is not relevant if Jak is lying about his night actions, though. jgordon, you'll have to tell us at least what you found out last night, or you should claim a role/name because at the moment we have only your word for it. Jak is correct to say that you should claim what you know and(/or) what you are before anyone can judge.

[vodean]

jak, it is with deep regret that i inform you that unless you present a very strong defense here, you will be lynched. see how that doesnt really work?