The Great War, update, graphic and gameplay advices needed

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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby iancanton on Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:39 pm

Oneyed wrote:if we add Ireland (and Wales) to United kingdom then Egypt could be neutral. and it brings bonus for everybody who holds it because Alexandria (town) + Egypt (its region). please lets make any decision :)

sounds good.

Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:however, it is still too quick and easy to move troops from london to malta to alexandria. i propose that we add a killer neutral sea region beside london, called one-way route to malta, just like the other sea regions, except that only london can attack it.

ok, but I would rather add this Sea near Malta. so London one way attacks that Sea region and Malta will be connected with this Sea region by route. ?

agreed.

Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:if we have only 2 non-neutral united kingdom regions and someone starts with both scotland and england, then this is a big advantage because london and edinburgh are relatively safe corner bonuses from which reinforcements can be sent to malta. having 3 united kingdom regions means that a player is likely to have to fight to gain london and edinburgh.

ok. just United Kingdom will have only 1 town (so only one bonus for "town and its region").

yes, that's correct. in fact, if egypt is neutral, then the british empire needs to be scotland, england, wales, ireland, london, edinburgh and malta.

Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:in stage 2, we need to add a mediterranean task force fleet region beside london, plus either scotland or ireland, to slow down the completion of the powerful british empire corner bonus.

yes, similar as Sea regon in stage2. but I am not sure with Ireland or Scotland. do not forget that in stage2 player will holds only capital. and no bonus, just +1 autodeploy in capital. I do not think it will be so easy to take all United Kingdon in stage2. all the more if we add fleet near Malta, so London can not attacks Malta directly. and yes, Great Britain is in the corner, but it also means that player will has harder way to Europe.

it's true that the london player cannot expand easily. however, when one player goes to stage 2, most of the others are likely to follow immediately because they suddenly lose all of their stage 1 bonuses. the most likely surprise win by objective is for an entente player to take all 4 central capitals because it's difficult to attack both london and petrograd in the same turn.

Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:remove minsk to reduce the russian empire total bonus, since the russian empire is a corner power.

then better to remove Moscow (in map1). Minsk is train station, while Moscow has no role in map1.

accepted. let minsk be part of russia, to bring russia closer to the action? if u do this, then rename the western part of west russia, which currently has a very strange shape, as baltic provinces.

make ukraine much smaller so that sevastopol visibly becomes part of russia (sevastopol was not part of ukraine)? this brings russia closer to the ottoman empire.

Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:remove bohemia and merge it into austria, so that the austria-hungary player has a chance of defending his bonus.

I am not sure with this. it is not harder to secure Austro-Hungaria as secure Germany. and Bohamia is also there because Berlin and Vienna are not so close.

alternatively, put mountains between bohemia and germany, which increases the distance between berlin and vienna as well as letting austria-hungary defend more easily? remove krakow? remove the railway between budapest and belgrade? anything else to reduce the difficulty and size of this bonus? austria-hungary is probably the second-hardest bonus because of the number of regions, number of borders and central location. the central location means it will be unpopular in multi-player games, so it needs to be an average or easy bonus, not one of the most difficult. as thematic justification for an easier bonus, austria-hungary had a weak army and was not heavily-industrialised, in contrast to germany.

in escalating games, it's possible for one person to remain in stage 1 when everyone else has gone to stage 2, so that his opponents cannot kill him. he simply lets everyone else break enemy bonuses while the value of spoils continues to increase. finally, he breaks through to stage 2 and kills one player, which allows him to cash spoils and kill repeatedly to win the game in one turn. is it part of the design of the map to allow this strategy or do u want to stop this from happening?

ian. :)
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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby Lord Arioch on Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:54 am

Lovly work man! Finish it and then we hit up on Yggdrasil:)
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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby Seamus Corrigan on Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:54 am

I love the clean, slightly retro look to this map. It needs to be made!
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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby Oneyed on Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:17 am

thank you guys for your kind words.

ian, sorry for delay, I have some rl things to finish. I need larger flat.

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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby iancanton on Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:11 pm

take ur time, oneyed, even artists need to find somewhere to live!

ian. :)
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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:09 pm

A month since the last post?

Come on guys, this is the single most important map in development right now.
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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby waauw on Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:33 am

for some reason clicking on "enlarge picture" doesn't work on this map
I can't see the map in decent size :(
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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby iancanton on Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:46 am

this is because it fits the small map standard maximum width of 630 pixels. oneyed has not yet made the large map.

ian. :)
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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby riskllama on Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:50 pm

oh my heavens! it does look interesting. here, have a ribbon candy...
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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby Oneyed on Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:34 pm

iancanton wrote:
Oneyed wrote:if we add Ireland (and Wales) to United kingdom then Egypt could be neutral. and it brings bonus for everybody who holds it because Alexandria (town) + Egypt (its region). please lets make any decision :)

sounds good.


at the first I added Wales to Britain, but I did not like it. the Brittish empire with Wales has 7 regions and bonus +2, bonus for town/region +1. so it gives small bonus compare with for example France with also 7 regions and bonus +2, but with town/region bonus +2. but I am open to next discussion :)
iancanton wrote:
Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:in stage 2, we need to add a mediterranean task force fleet region beside london, plus either scotland or ireland, to slow down the completion of the powerful british empire corner bonus.

yes, similar as Sea regon in stage2. but I am not sure with Ireland or Scotland. do not forget that in stage2 player will holds only capital. and no bonus, just +1 autodeploy in capital. I do not think it will be so easy to take all United Kingdon in stage2. all the more if we add fleet near Malta, so London can not attacks Malta directly. and yes, Great Britain is in the corner, but it also means that player will has harder way to Europe.

it's true that the london player cannot expand easily. however, when one player goes to stage 2, most of the others are likely to follow immediately because they suddenly lose all of their stage 1 bonuses. the most likely surprise win by objective is for an entente player to take all 4 central capitals because it's difficult to attack both london and petrograd in the same turn.


as with Wales in map1, Ireland is off in map2. but again wecan discuss this.
iancanton wrote:make ukraine much smaller so that sevastopol visibly becomes part of russia (sevastopol was not part of ukraine)? this brings russia closer to the ottoman empire.


done. but only in map1. after russian revolution, Crimea was base of white army. and in map2 I want to have Soviet russia somewhat isolated, so without close connection with Ottomans.
iancanton wrote:
Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:remove bohemia and merge it into austria, so that the austria-hungary player has a chance of defending his bonus.

I am not sure with this. it is not harder to secure Austro-Hungaria as secure Germany. and Bohamia is also there because Berlin and Vienna are not so close.

alternatively, put mountains between bohemia and germany, which increases the distance between berlin and vienna as well as letting austria-hungary defend more easily? remove krakow? remove the railway between budapest and belgrade? anything else to reduce the difficulty and size of this bonus? austria-hungary is probably the second-hardest bonus because of the number of regions, number of borders and central location. the central location means it will be unpopular in multi-player games, so it needs to be an average or easy bonus, not one of the most difficult. as thematic justification for an easier bonus, austria-hungary had a weak army and was not heavily-industrialised, in contrast to germany.


I added mountains between Bohemia/Germany (map1), Austria/Germany (map2).
iancanton wrote:in escalating games, it's possible for one person to remain in stage 1 when everyone else has gone to stage 2, so that his opponents cannot kill him. he simply lets everyone else break enemy bonuses while the value of spoils continues to increase. finally, he breaks through to stage 2 and kills one player, which allows him to cash spoils and kill repeatedly to win the game in one turn. is it part of the design of the map to allow this strategy or do u want to stop this from happening?


NO! it is not part of design. this is very good point ian. I hate spoils games, so I forgot this. I thought that we can cancel that after entering map2 player can not play in map1. so this will allow to control somebody who just deploy and deploy and wait. and maybe add any extra bonus for holding capital (all state) in map1 and "the same"capital in map?

I also removed dashed regions from map2. just some armies are dashed.
map1
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map2
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thanks to everybody who posted here for interest and support :)

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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby iancanton on Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:52 pm

Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:in escalating games, it's possible for one person to remain in stage 1 when everyone else has gone to stage 2, so that his opponents cannot kill him. he simply lets everyone else break enemy bonuses while the value of spoils continues to increase. finally, he breaks through to stage 2 and kills one player, which allows him to cash spoils and kill repeatedly to win the game in one turn. is it part of the design of the map to allow this strategy or do u want to stop this from happening?

NO! it is not part of design. this is very good point ian. I hate spoils games, so I forgot this. I thought that we can cancel that after entering map2 player can not play in map1. so this will allow to control somebody who just deploy and deploy and wait. and maybe add any extra bonus for holding capital (all state) in map1 and "the same"capital in map?

a player can always deploy on any region where he has troops. we cannot prevent this. it is possible to add a bonus for holding the "same" capital on both maps. it is also possible to apply an exclusion, so that escalating spoils are not allowed (though i dislike this idea).

ian. :)
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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby Oneyed on Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:53 pm

iancanton wrote:a player can always deploy on any region where he has troops. we cannot prevent this.


there is rule on map, that when player take capital in map2 all his regions on map1 revert to neutral (99 or 999). because my idea is to enforce players to play on the map2. maybe we could do that on map1 could be almost impossible to win...?
iancanton wrote:it is possible to add a bonus for holding the "same" capital on both maps.


yes. or any negative bonus without capital on map2. for example hold entire state on map1 without the same capital on map2 -2 troops?
iancanton wrote:it is also possible to apply an exclusion, so that escalating spoils are not allowed (though i dislike this idea).

ian. :)


I do not like spoils games, but me too :)

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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby bigWham on Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:17 pm

Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:a player can always deploy on any region where he has troops. we cannot prevent this.


there is rule on map, that when player take capital in map2 all his regions on map1 revert to neutral (99 or 999). because my idea is to enforce players to play on the map2. maybe we could do that on map1 could be almost impossible to win...?
iancanton wrote:it is possible to add a bonus for holding the "same" capital on both maps.


yes. or any negative bonus without capital on map2. for example hold entire state on map1 without the same capital on map2 -2 troops?
iancanton wrote:it is also possible to apply an exclusion, so that escalating spoils are not allowed (though i dislike this idea).

ian. :)


I do not like spoils games, but me too :)

Oneyed


Hey everyone... just popping in to promote the idea of getting a functioning version of this on Beta, so we can play on it! There are so many things that are difficult assess in theory, whereas I think we can fast-track development if we can start playing on it.
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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby Oneyed on Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:35 am

bigWham wrote:Hey everyone... just popping in to promote the idea of getting a functioning version of this on Beta, so we can play on it! There are so many things that are difficult assess in theory, whereas I think we can fast-track development if we can start playing on it.


I think map is prepared for testing on 70%. I will check if everything fits (888 numbers), but what is still problem is gameplay. the rule of entering to map2, the rule if we allow to play also on map1 when player will enters map2, how to reduce what ian wrote about escalating games when one player can just deploy, deploy and then attackand so on.

so please I will be happy for every input and ideas.

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Re: The Great War, update, 31.01.2015

Postby Oneyed on Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:36 pm

some graphic changes made.

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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby iancanton on Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:50 pm

Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:a player can always deploy on any region where he has troops. we cannot prevent this.

there is rule on map, that when player take capital in map2 all his regions on map1 revert to neutral (99 or 999).

the legend does not say this. the legend says that, if a player holds a stage 2 capital, then all stage 1 regions of that state change to n99 and all of his stage 1 bonuses are lost, but it says nothing about what happens to that player's other stage 1 regions.

Oneyed wrote:because my idea is to enforce players to play on the map2. maybe we could do that on map1 could be almost impossible to win...?

earlier, u said that u wanted it to be possible, some of the time, for players to be able to win without going to stage 2. have u changed ur mind?

Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:it is possible to add a bonus for holding the "same" capital on both maps.

yes. or any negative bonus without capital on map2. for example hold entire state on map1 without the same capital on map2 -2 troops?

both of these ideas almost force a player to go to stage 2 immediately he holds an entire state. instead, do u think letting stage 2 capitals bombard all stage 1 capitals will work?

ian. :)
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Re: The Great War, updated 16.9.14 update: any future?

Postby Oneyed on Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:20 pm

iancanton wrote:the legend does not say this. the legend says that, if a player holds a stage 2 capital, then all stage 1 regions of that state change to n99 and all of his stage 1 bonuses are lost, but it says nothing about what happens to that player's other stage 1 regions.


then I forgot to edit legend. it would be that after capturing capital on map2 all players regions on map1 become 99 neutral. but this could blocks another player to capture bonus in map1... will think about this.
iancanton wrote:earlier, u said that u wanted it to be possible, some of the time, for players to be able to win without going to stage 2. have u changed ur mind?


I said that I want that players will play on map1 (for bonus, for entering to map2) and not just deploy and deploy (especialy in escalating games). ofcourse if any player is able to finish game on map1 we can not disallow this.
iancanton wrote:both of these ideas almost force a player to go to stage 2 immediately he holds an entire state. instead, do u think letting stage 2 capitals bombard all stage 1 capitals will work?

ian. :)


I like bombard idea.

what is wrong by me, is that there are too much game settings. it is hard to find good rules for all settings. almost impossible, especialy on map such this one...

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Re: The Great War, update, graphic and gameplay advices need

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:36 am

How dropping the idea that all map 1 terts go neutral when map 2 is entered?

When map2 is entered, no tert on map 1 can attack any other tert on map 1, but all terts on map 1 (not just capitals, but all terts) can attack their analogue on map 2. (Munich on map 1 can 1-way attack Munich on map 2, Ionian Sea on map 1 can attack Italian Fleet on map 2, etc.) In this fashion, a player could gradually bring all his troops from map 1 to map 2 (representing the gradual change from peace-time economy to war economy).

This would be more intuitive to most players, require less complex rules, and would give players proper credit for the work they did in building up their empires on map 1 before the war.

Some terts could go more than one way. (Black Sea could one-way attack both Russian and Ottoman fleets.)
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Re: The Great War, update, graphic and gameplay advices need

Postby Oneyed on Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:47 pm

Dukasaur wrote:How dropping the idea that all map 1 terts go neutral when map 2 is entered?


it is still needed any rule when/how/where/who can enter map2.
and do you mean that when the first player enters map2 all regions in map1 become neutral? or just all regions of this player in map1 become neutral?
Dukasaur wrote:When map2 is entered, no tert on map 1 can attack any other tert on map 1, but all terts on map 1 (not just capitals, but all terts) can attack their analogue on map 2. (Munich on map 1 can 1-way attack Munich on map 2, Ionian Sea on map 1 can attack Italian Fleet on map 2, etc.) In this fashion, a player could gradually bring all his troops from map 1 to map 2 (representing the gradual change from peace-time economy to war economy).


this sounds much better. so after the first player enters map2 all other players must follow him. and when we will hold rule that "only if entire state in map1 is held it is possible to enter map2" this will enforce players quickly conquer state in map1 and move this bonus to map2. because the rest players will enter map2 without any bonus from map1.
no all regions in map1 have their analogues in map2, but this is just small thing...
Dukasaur wrote:This would be more intuitive to most players, require less complex rules, and would give players proper credit for the work they did in building up their empires on map 1 before the war.


well, sounds good.
Dukasaur wrote:Some terts could go more than one way. (Black Sea could one-way attack both Russian and Ottoman fleets.)


not sure with this. but I like the core of your idea. this is why more people are needed in foundry (especialy in the advanced stage of map) - you see the map from another perspective.

ian, what do you think?

thanks Dukasaur. do you think about become blue guy :)

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Re: The Great War, update, graphic and gameplay advices need

Postby Oneyed on Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:24 pm

thinkign about Dukasaur proposal.

once the first player (player A) captured entire state in map1 he can as the first entered map2 and it will be also impossible to make any attacks in map1 and regions from map1 can attack their analogue in map2.

then I can reduce bonus for town+its region in map1, so bonus for state will be more important.
because regions in both maps are too different, only towns and capitals from map1 could attacks their analogue in map2.

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Re: The Great War, update, graphic and gameplay advices need

Postby iancanton on Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:03 pm

oneyed wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:When map2 is entered, no tert on map 1 can attack any other tert on map 1, but all terts on map 1 (not just capitals, but all terts) can attack their analogue on map 2. (Munich on map 1 can 1-way attack Munich on map 2, Ionian Sea on map 1 can attack Italian Fleet on map 2, etc.) In this fashion, a player could gradually bring all his troops from map 1 to map 2 (representing the gradual change from peace-time economy to war economy).

this sounds much better. so after the first player enters map2 all other players must follow him. and when we will hold rule that "only if entire state in map1 is held it is possible to enter map2" this will enforce players quickly conquer state in map1 and move this bonus to map2. because the rest players will enter map2 without any bonus from map1.

Oneyed wrote:once the first player (player A) captured entire state in map1 he can as the first entered map2 and it will be also impossible to make any attacks in map1 and regions from map1 can attack their analogue in map2.

a player can make conditional attacks from one of his own regions, with conditions based on other regions that he himself does or does not hold. can u think of a way to code conditional attacks based on a region that an opponent holds? if not, then it's impossible to prevent map 1 regions from attacking other map 1 regions with a condition that an opponent has a map 2 region.

Oneyed wrote:I can reduce bonus for town+its region in map1, so bonus for state will be more important.
because regions in both maps are too different, only towns and capitals from map1 could attacks their analogue in map2.

ur modification of dukasaur's idea is that players can enter map 2 through any town or capital when holding an entire state and holding a map 2 region does not make all of a player's map 1 regions turn neutral, am i right? if so, then we can try this.

how can u kill the last player on map 1 if he refuses to move to map 2? we might have to force everyone to move to map 2 by coding a transformation of all map 1 regions to neutral at the start of, say, turn 11.

ian. :)
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Re: The Great War, update, graphic and gameplay advices need

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:20 am

iancanton wrote:how can u kill the last player on map 1 if he refuses to move to map 2? we might have to force everyone to move to map 2 by coding a transformation of all map 1 regions to neutral at the start of, say, turn 11.

ian. :)

Alternatively, you could make it so that a certain number of turns after map 2 is breached, you must hold at least 1 tert on map 2 or be eliminated. Sort of the same way as Gallipoli does it with land/sea terts, except that it doesn't start from the beginning.
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Re: The Great War, update, graphic and gameplay advices need

Postby iancanton on Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:15 pm

we cannot specify conditional losing conditions. however, as i understand it, we can code a transformation of all map 1 regions to neutral after, say, 5 complete rounds following any player taking any map 2 region, which has a similar effect.

ian. :)
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