[09-Jun-2008] Ratings & Medals

[jiminski]

Come vote, add your opinion and try to find something which suits us all:

Community Adjudicated Comment System
and

here:
General Discussion Vote

[suggs]

ENOUGH..... EVERYONE HATES THIS NEW SYSTEM. CHANGE IT. I'M READY TO JUST QUIT PLAYING AND I DON'T THINK I'M ALONE....

LISTEN TO WHAT EVERYONE IS TELLING YOU>>>>

Word.

[DukeToshiro]

I wish that the mods would unplug their ears and actually show up in this thread. If you look at the poll threads regarding the feedback change, it has a worse approval rating than George W. Bush. I guess they don't like to hear any opinions at all, wether it be in other people's feedback or their own. I guess that their philosophy is, "If there are too many complaints, get rid of the complaint department."

[Optimus Prime]

I wish that the mods would unplug their ears and actually show up in this thread. If you look at the poll threads regarding the feedback change, it has a worse approval rating than George W. Bush. I guess they don't like to hear any opinions at all, wether it be in other people's feedback or their own. I guess that their philosophy is, "If there are too many complaints, get rid of the complaint department."

Or... perhaps we just know more than you about what the future holds for the site? Ever think about that?

[suggs]

I wish that the mods would unplug their ears and actually show up in this thread. If you look at the poll threads regarding the feedback change, it has a worse approval rating than George W. Bush. I guess they don't like to hear any opinions at all, wether it be in other people's feedback or their own. I guess that their philosophy is, "If there are too many complaints, get rid of the complaint department."

Or... perhaps we just know more than you about what the future holds for the site? Ever think about that?

Umm..thats not very good customer service, Prime.
Remember that its the paying customers that keep this site going.
What happens to a restaurant that keeps ignoring complaints? It shuts down.
You'd be wise to listen to the people that effectively own this site.
I still maintain, as does 90% of all the other posters, that while the new system is obviously better for the Mods, its worse for everyone else.
I'm not sure if thats an acceptable trade off.

[Optimus Prime]

I wish that the mods would unplug their ears and actually show up in this thread. If you look at the poll threads regarding the feedback change, it has a worse approval rating than George W. Bush. I guess they don't like to hear any opinions at all, wether it be in other people's feedback or their own. I guess that their philosophy is, "If there are too many complaints, get rid of the complaint department."

Or... perhaps we just know more than you about what the future holds for the site? Ever think about that?

Umm..thats not very good customer service, Prime.
Remember that its the paying customers that keep this site going.
What happens to a restaurant that keeps ignoring complaints? It shuts down.
You'd be wise to listen to the people that effectively own this site.
I still maintain, as does 90% of all the other posters, that while the new system is obviously better for the Mods, its worse for everyone else.
I'm not sure if thats an acceptable trade off.

And yet.... most restaurants (if we stay with your metaphor here) don't go changing all sorts of things when a new system is put in place and everyone complains for the first few days either, now do they? You guys just want to whine about it now, but you have no clue how the system will be working 4 weeks from now, do you? As with anything that is new, you must give it some time to either prove or debunk itself. The short amount of time so far doesn't count.

Pardon me for not taking everything the public says with an open heart, suggs. The classic map debacle showed that 95% of the complainers had not a clue what they were talking about anyways with their "change it back to the way it was" and then voting for the wrong damn map.

[suggs]

I see your point.
But I have some idea of how the system will be working in four weeks time -for example, I doubt it will allow written feedback responses (clearly, a self edited wall is not the same).
Without some sort of written feedback system, it ain't gonna be very informative.
And I hear what you are saying about the general publics lack of understanding - but I just get the feeling that you think they come secondary to what the moderators think.
Obviously, it must be the other way round -unless you want the population of CC to be about ten people.

[Optimus Prime]

I see your point.
But I have some idea of how the system will be working in four weeks time -for example, I doubt it will allow written feedback responses (clearly, a self edited wall is not the same).
Without some sort of written feedback system, it ain't gonna be very informative.
And I hear what you are saying about the general publics lack of understanding - but I just get the feeling that you think they come secondary to what the moderators think.
Obviously, it must be the other way round -unless you want the population of CC to be about ten people.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we won't have written feedback in four weeks, but that doesn't mean that Lack doesn't have some ideas of how to address the issue in a way that still allows the members of Team CC to dedicate more time to things other than feedback moderation. What the public doesn't seem to take a moment and digest is the amount of time it takes him to code it in, make sure it works for all the browsers (and even then it isn't perfect sometimes), test it, fix it when the test breaks it, test it again, fix it again, and then, finally have it right, only... to have all of you do nothing but bitch and moan from the second it goes live. Perhaps if everyone were to consider the work, give it at least even a couple of days before flooding the forums with thread after thread of "I hate this" or "You suck, I want my money back" things would go over a bit smoother. I'm sure if you were the owner of the business and every time you made a change (even well worth it good ones) and nobody does anything but complain you might detach yourself from the yelling and screaming for a few weeks too.

Lack has himself a very tight update schedule as he has said before. He has publicly stated on a couple of occasions that he likes to get a new update out every 2-3 months if possible, but that sometimes that doesn't work. I'm sure there are several more things that even I don't know about that he wanted to throw in for us here with the ratings and medals that just wound up being a little more sticky than he thought they would be and he had to slot them into an update down the line. Granted, I don't know everything about the updates, but I do know some things, and for what is planned, I'm willing to wait a couple months and see if Lack figures it out.

You know, everyone spouts off in these threads about how "the customer is suffering" or "he's losing business, nobody is going to want to stay." Well, you know what? Go take a glance through the General Discussion forum at all the threads complaining, or Suggs & Bugs, or Chatter Box. If you were someone who joined CC 2 days after the update, joined some games, had some free time between your turns, and then came into the forums to burn some time, would you want to stay?

All that player runs into is whining, complaining, bitching, moaning about the god forsaken new update that is bringing about the end of the world! You know, Flame Wars (somewhere I don't go often, and most don't) would have been a great place to rant and rave about it while keeping constructive criticism and debate to the OFFICIAL thread about the update. But no, everyone and their dog felt it necessary to flood the forums.

I'd worry more about people not wanting to stick around because they see everyone in our community here just wants to be cynical, whine, or be a jerk. Not because the new rating system doesn't leave written feedback. Sure, I wouldn't mind a way to leave a comment here or there, but you know what? I'd also rather see some of the behind-the-scenes projects get done too. I may have a unique position in knowing what those projects are, so I can say that while those of you out here can't, but perhaps the "customers" should demonstrate a smidgen more faith in the fact that Lack isn't an idiot, he does know what he is doing, even if you aren't happy with everything he does.

It's a fine line for him to balance what is best for his livelihood (as that is what this site is to thim) and what is best to keep you guys happy as customers. Sometimes I bet he has to waver a bit in favor of himself, but I'm positive there are days when he wavers to what is better for all of you.

[DukeToshiro]

I appreciate the fact that lack and others put so much time and effort into this website. When a new feature is added to the site, I often try to go over to the forums and say thanks for the great update. The hard work is very much appreciated.

However, I don't think that I should bite my tongue if I think a change is a horrible idea. It was probably brown-nosers and keister-kissers that convinced lack this was a good idea in the first place. If he had gotten some honest feedback from the start of this whole thing (and believe me, if I had known about that thread in the forums I would have gladly shared my opinion on the subject), then he probably wouldn't have implemented the change in the first place.

You keep stating that we should "wait and see what happens" while at the same time stating that "nothing is going to be changed". Why should we wait for weeks and months to comment if it's going to be the exact same system? If nothing is going to be changed, what should we be waiting for? I saw one user who had a ton of negatives under the old system, and he now has a higher rating than others who used to have spotless reputations. I saw another user that had several people rate him with ones and twos, yet he still had about a 4.8 because everyone else was simply rating him all fives. Can you not see how pointless this thing is?


I am very glad to see a mod on the thread, though. It seemed for a while that everyone was going to be completely ignored. I'm done with commenting on this thread. I've said what I thought I needed to say and now I'm done with it. I just kept reading these pages and pages of other people's comments and it seemed like nobody was listening to them. Even if you don't like what your customers are saying, you still need to listen to them. Thanks for at least attempting to listen.

[cre8tiff]

What the public doesn't seem to take a moment and digest is the amount of time it takes him to code it in, make sure it works for all the browsers (and even then it isn't perfect sometimes), test it, fix it when the test breaks it, test it again, fix it again, and then, finally have it right, only... to have all of you do nothing but bitch and moan from the second it goes live.

Boo fricken hoo. Last I checked the man was being PAID to do that.

ANYONE in IT goes through the design, develop, test cycle. THe problem is the DESIGN cycle seemed to be missing here. Trust me any IT person out there that turns out a crappy update gets shelled, from the lowest web designer to Enterprise applications.

I'm sure if you were the owner of the business and every time you made a change (even well worth it good ones) and nobody does anything but complain you might detach yourself from the yelling and screaming for a few weeks too.

Guess what, when you are the owner of a business, the customers ARE your boss. And you had better fricken listen to them. Especially if you are selling a SERVICE. Deciding for the majority what is best for them without getting good, representative market data is just stupid. And even more, if you make a mistake, you are much better off simply rolling back the change and studying what your CUSTOMERS who pay your bills have to say about it. This elitist "benevolent god" stance is very poor business.

Lack has himself a very tight update schedule as he has said before. He has publicly stated on a couple of occasions that he likes to get a new update out every 2-3 months if possible, but that sometimes that doesn't work.

If the other updates are as poorly thought out as this one, perhaps he should reconsider.

I'd worry more about people not wanting to stick around because they see everyone in our community here just wants to be cynical, whine, or be a jerk. Not because the new rating system doesn't leave written feedback. Sure, I wouldn't mind a way to leave a comment here or there, but you know what? I'd also rather see some of the behind-the-scenes projects get done too. I may have a unique position in knowing what those projects are, so I can say that while those of you out here can't, but perhaps the "customers" should demonstrate a smidgen more faith in the fact that Lack isn't an idiot, he does know what he is doing, even if you aren't happy with everything he does.

Anytime a service company ignores it's customer's there will be outcry. The key is to stop feeling like what you are hearing is bitching and complaining over nothing and start understanding that this is representative of the actual thoughts and feelings of the source of your revenue stream. This is some serious crap. The first tenet of ANY application upgrade if "First do no Harm" and "Retention of client is Number One". Forcing stupid solutions on your clientèle just because an elite few THINK it is better (for them) is just plain ignorant.

It's a fine line for him to balance what is best for his livelihood (as that is what this site is to thim) and what is best to keep you guys happy as customers. Sometimes I bet he has to waver a bit in favor of himself, but I'm positive there are days when he wavers to what is better for all of you.

I promise that the day this asinine update went out was not one where he wavered to the paying customers. It needs to be rolled back and better thought out.

[azezzo]

i dont want to waste half a page quoting optimus prime, but in response to his last post, and i appreciate the time that he spent posting it, I actually am a buisness owner, i have a construction company in chicago, and there are days when i have to deal with customers who i feel are wrong, but they are paying the bills so I have to listen to them and make them happy. Call it diplomacy, politics or just smart buisness, the customer 99 times out of a 100 is right, even when I think hes wrong, I may not agree with him but inorder to get paid and get referrals i need to make the customer happy.
If I can i charge the customer to make him happy I will try, change orders, extras, call it what you will. So lack and optimus and all the other mods, I for 1 am willing to pay more than $25.00 a year to keep the old feedback system, hell double it, call it $50.00 a year, for all the hours , or days i spend here, it would be worth it. Hire some more mods, I will even apply if theres an opening.
So that I dont sound ungrateful, I appreciate the work the mods do, but perhaps they are overworked.
Please bring back the old system.

[jiminski]

Pardon me for not taking everything the public says with an open heart, suggs. The classic map debacle showed that 95% of the complainers had not a clue what they were talking about anyways with their "change it back to the way it was" and then voting for the wrong damn map.

so it was perfect and we were wrong OP?

some people get mugged and identify the wrong person in the police line-up.. it doesn't mean they were not mugged!

[Atarihero]

gotta say that the new system replaces simple, easy to understand Positive/Negative ratings and informative information about players with meaningless arbitrarily assigned numbers. (the difference between a 4 and 5 means nothing when assigned by different people). A person can miss turns and still get assigned a 5, while someone with perfect attendance can get a 2, there's no checks or balances to it. No to mention people used to give feedback if they cared, giving it added meaning. Now you click a arbitrary # of stars to gain metals.

I really don't understand the logic behind it. Don't want to moderate feedback, don't moderate feedback, simple. I can't believe there will be less complains about bad rating now. I bet "Why should I have a 1?" has been PM'ed to more than 1 mod already. The old system seemed to moderate itself as the offended could respond directly, if people are abusing language or leaving vile comments then just take away their ability to leave feedback, or ban them, problem solved.

As it is now we have a star and a meaningless number next to our names, and we have no way to tell who is a vindictive, rude, dead-beating player, and who is just popular.

[Raggy]

imho the new rating idea is a flop because it allows any idiot to click (or even mis-click!) a non-standardized value to rate his opponnts,without having to explain.

The feedback system was so much better.

But I can see how moderating the feedback takes a terrible toll on the administration...could I suggest that feedback-moderation become a Community effort..appoint a bunch of members to become Feedback Moderators (in fact, have them elected in a poll for a term of 6 months or a year each)..then FM's can go about ensuring feedback becomes fair, and if it works well, the whole community is happy, and CC grows. FM's may be rewarded with, say, a 3-month extensionof their CC membership upon completion of a satisfactory term of office, no $ payment needed.

2 humble cents,

Raggy

[Mustapha Mond]

Yeah... just realized that this doesn't really solve anything.

I just had a cook give me 1-star ratings in fair play, attitude and teamwork in a trips game in which he was on the opposite team (2530660, in case you're interested). There wasn't any public game chat, and it was over in 7 rounds. How in the world does that merit 1-star rankings?

At least when it was comment-based, they had to explain themselves and you had the chance to reply. In this case, you have no way to respond to someone giving you a bad rating, and I think that's very important. I would often play with people who had fairly high negative feedbacks if they responded to it in a reasonable way themselves.

I also don't see how this prevents retaliatory feedback. I'm certainly inclined to give him a 1-star for "attitude". I'd have to advise anyone against playing with them, given that you may be subject to 1-star ratings just for winning a game without saying anything.

[BluU]

I have a question on what constitutes a "win" for terminator games as pertains to the Terminator Medal. Do you count each person you take out in a terminator game, or do you have to win the game and then you count all of the opponents in the game?

I couldn't find the answer to this question
Can someone please answer

[Akabane]

I'm with ESN - I liked being able to check out the relevant game to see who could back up their complaint in the feedback.

[homelessguy65]

just an idea!!, how about instead of stars, have a bunch of common words?

DEADBEATER
COMPLETE IDIOT
WTF
THIS GUY/GAL HAS NO CLUE
DONT PLAY (on and on)

you could select common quotes from alot of feedback already left using descriptive words that we all used, and allow us to choose these in order to give feedback neg of pos, this way we couldnt add foul language and we wouldnt need moderaters. you could have colors and bold ect to give feeling, but will give us the chance to leave what we feel people deserve out there,

and if some people abuse this time after time, just ban them from leaving feedback?

also i like the idea of delayed feedback, so you dont just get a neg for giving a neg....lol

[homelessguy65]

just an idea!!, how about instead of stars, have a bunch of common words?

DEADBEATER
COMPLETE IDIOT
WTF
THIS GUY/GAL HAS NO CLUE
DONT PLAY (on and on)

you could select common quotes from alot of feedback already left using descriptive words that we all used, and allow us to choose these in order to give feedback neg of pos, this way we couldnt add foul language and we wouldnt need moderaters. you could have colors and bold ect to give feeling, but will give us the chance to leave what we feel people deserve out there,

and if some people abuse this time after time, just ban them from leaving feedback?

also i like the idea of delayed feedback, so you dont just get a neg for giving a neg....lol

maybe this is your own fault for creating something so great as the old system of feedback, id spend quite abit of time reading, and i didnt mind spending alot of my time on your site, but now, im already over speed games as the guys i knew there have nothing new to offer, as i would catch up with them by only reading there feedback (unless i played them) and ive lost the goal to get as many pos as i could,

i guess what im trying to say is that the feedback was a HUGE part of this game and now that you have just gotten rid of it i feel you might have gotten rid of me too.

NOT HAPPY and i dont think i want to belong here anymore...lol

[Limey Lyons]

I have declined to renew my premium membership in protest of these changes. Those of you out there who feel as strongly as I do about this should consider doing the same.

[Tommy Tucker]

How many complaints does it take before someone has the guts to reply and admit they have made a mistake? I LOVE this site (at least I used to) but I know at least half of the guys I regularly play with are considering chuking it in.

Mods: Thanks for everythng but for God's sake LISTEN

[Hound]

What I think is just hilarious is the mods thinking that some of the idiots on this site would rate objectively because they are using stars instead of feedback. We're seeing people getting 1 star ratings for attendance even if they didn't miss a turn, when the rater is just mad because they lost. I'm guessing the thinking must have been that those kinds of ratings will just get lost in all the volume. Maybe that's right but then it points out the futility of even bothering to rate. Based on the ratings I'm seeing, the average seems to be around 4.6 or 4.7 and that's mostly because we have two camps, those that rate 5 unless you do something asinine and those that use 3 unless you deviate either good or bad.

Under the old feedback system, even some of the worst offenders played well enough, often enough to get good feedback. I assume the same will hold true under this system as well, but in this case we won't be able to tell if the ratings are because of spectacularly bad attitude or attendance, or just because they played some noobs that don't know how to rate or were maybe just a poor loser. And if we're going to limit who we play against, how do you know that someone with a 4.1 rating didn't deadbeat for no good reason vs. a generally good player that just got ratf**ked?

Face it, you guys really screwed the pooch on this one.

[Cursor102]

Some guy just gave me 3 stars in each category, which I definitely did not deserve. How could I possibly deserve 3 stars for attendance when I never missed a turn? I didn't even take long to make a turn. I also played fair.

That rating aggravated me. I definitely think attendance should not be graded by an opponent. Just have a missed turns calculator. If that was the case, my total would always be 0.

But because of some New Recruit jackass, my attendance rating sits at 4.0

I think this rating system expresses what kind of raters people have played instead of grading the player him or herself. I'm not in favor.

[General Mayhem]

im not gonna read this whole thread but in my opinion, like ebay, star ratings should be anonymous so you can rate truly without worrying about retaliatory ratings.

I also think the feedback should still be running along with it.

[jiminski]

I also think the feedback should still be running along with it.

it's impractical Mayhem! it's easy to just say it and wish it were true.. but it takes to much of the sites resources!