CRICKET: SILLY MID-ON

[cairnswk]

Easily the worst map on CC. I would love to be more constructive and start to list the reasons why, but there are way to many.

Why don't you just try, others have. It might improve things for others looking at you also.

[b00060]

Ok, for starters, you can have so many negative bonuses you don't even get a deploy.

The map is confusing as hell, as are the bonus structures which can end a game before it even begins based on the initial deploys. I can't think of two more important aspects to a successful map than that. You can actually start with upwards of an 8 troop differential on initial deploy. All the negative bonuses are ridiculous. You drop plus 4 and you win, end of story.

[ender516]

Just so everyone can see what I asked about in the chat in Game 7602206:

2010-09-10 00:22:17 - ender516: Say, cairnswk, the legend says "Add four runs on same line, bonus increases to +2", but BOB is telling me I have the -1 for Batter 2 and Deep Mid-On and the 2 for same plus Long-On 4.
2010-09-10 00:23:05 - ender516: Should the bonus with four runs override the basic batter/fielder negative bonus?

And by the way, I got the bowler in the drop, but I have not won.

You drop plus 4 and you win, end of story.

I guess there's more of the story to tell.

[cairnswk]

Okay Cairns,

As you might realise, I'm a great fan of your maps on this site. Just looking at the image, I think that this map has potential to be great fun and make use of some fairly unique gameplay features.
In my opinion, the only real issues entail the various bonuses in the field itself (and the Mosa-Lefu border).

Thanks for offering suggestions....I'm not sure that a lot cn be done about the Mosa-Lefu border. I had already jiggled with all that area from previous versions and the border configuration there is necessary to stop that from being a chain-link border layout. Unfortunately the available space also limits the configuration.
EDIT: Perhaps i misread you're issue on the mosa-lefu situation, and see that they don't border in the xml, which i will fix. Apologies.

I feel that the Bowler should start neutral every time or have a lower auto-deployment bonus. Being able to begin with 4 bonus troops really punches a hole in the strategic aspect of this game. And due to the sheer number of borders that region has, it seems likely to affect a large number of games.

OK. dropping the auto-deploy to +2 is achievable.

But as has already been made clear, the biggest flaw in the gameplay is the ability to begin your first turn with a whole bunch of negative bonuses for holding the fielders.

There are four solutions to this issue which I can suggest:

1] All fielders start neutral
This probably isn't such a good idea, as no player will have much incentive to attack any of the regions on the field.

This is not a good option since there would nobody playing in the field, which would mean you'd have to code all the batting team neutral also.

2] Each player starts with an equal number of fielders as defined by the XML
A better option this time, but still makes it possible for a player to play late in round 1 and have only 2 troops to deploy. (unlikely, but you never know).

Mmmm. Has merit, but if we can achieve something better without having to code the xml, 'twould be better.

3] Fielders start neutral and each player begins with an equal number of 'Deep' (orange) regions
My favourite option. Having these troops in the field gives a player incentive to take fielders and other associated bonuses. It also makes the +2 (Bat, Field, Four) bonus much more useful and interesting.

It doesn't achieve the game if you code the fielders neutral. And if you code orange 4 regions into the mix that would destroy the object of gaining a "4".

4] Remove the negative bonus aspect
This could work nicely, but it might affect the gameplay plan you had in mind more than the other suggestions I have listed.

Yes, it would destroy the gameplay objective of the batter being "caught out" for -1, if the batter gets stuck on the feilding position, and fails to take the "4" also.

With all that said, this is your map - to change it or not is your decision. I'm just trying to help you push this into the realms of 'quality maps'.

Appreciate your desire to improve, well done.

[cairnswk]

Ok, for starters, you can have so many negative bonuses you don't even get a deploy.

The map is confusing as hell,

Yes well. if you've played any of my more challenging maps you'll also find them confusing. But that also makes people think what is possible outside the box, which is why as you know, we have a lot of the inventive technologies that engratiate our lives.
But this is what beta is all about, trying to find some solutions to problems, but not take the challenge away.

as are the bonus structures which can end a game before it even begins based on the initial deploys. I can't think of two more important aspects to a successful map than that. You can actually start with upwards of an 8 troop differential on initial deploy. All the negative bonuses are ridiculous. You drop plus 4 and you win, end of story.

the negative bonuses are an important part of the overall objective of gameplay.
basically, if you're the batter and you aim for the orange "4" for the bonus, you have to go "over the head" of the attached fielder to get that bonus, otherwise you might get "caught out" (which is where the negative bonus comes in, same as in baseball).
So thanks for the input, and i hope you'll contribute more, right now the issues are being addressed with possible solutions that still retain the gameplay to make this a decent sports map. And getting this one sorted might give other ideas to the baseball map that is coming along.

[cairnswk]

It also looks like Mosa & Lefu border. This isn't the case.

MK6 is to far away from it's spot. Now it looks like MK6 is Max.

And indeed, those drops are hilarious.

Thanks Iron Maid.
I've fixed the Mosa-Lefu non-bordering issue.
In the next version of xml upload, this will be sorted.
And the drops are being worked on.

[cairnswk]

[Game]7602250 [/Game]

yikes, my partner drops -4 for his batter plus fielders! plus our opponent drops the +4 bowler....maybe a few changes are in order!

that aside, love your work, cairnsy....been waiting for this map for months!

Yes, i dropped a -3 and didn't get to deploy. so we'll possibly change that.
Thanks Nephilim

[cairnswk]

Just code the batters neutral?

Why not just make the batters neutral?

Why not just make the batters neutral?

This too. I was going to suggest it, but it slipped my mind.

OK guys. thanks natty for your suggestion, i was waiting to see what other contributions came in before answering.

I am inclined to go with the option of coding the batters neutral to start.
a. it gives those in the field more incentive to make a decent push to gain a batter since the drop regions are attached.
b. if you gain a batter, and also have a fielder, you're going to gain a negative bonus, which means it's going to need a good number of reinforcements on the batter to counter this negative bonus if you want to stay there.
c. this means that for those who get to stay on the batter position, have an opportunity to gain "4"s or "6"s but they'll need plenty of troops to do it with.

And to start, i'd like to code the batter position with neutral 4, because it means players might get past the first round without someone taking a batter.

So hope this helps, and i'll summarise the change in another post.

[cairnswk]

Just so everyone can see what I asked about in the chat in Game 7602206:

2010-09-10 00:22:17 - ender516: Say, cairnswk, the legend says "Add four runs on same line, bonus increases to +2", but BOB is telling me I have the -1 for Batter 2 and Deep Mid-On and the 2 for same plus Long-On 4.
2010-09-10 00:23:05 - ender516: Should the bonus with four runs override the basic batter/fielder negative bonus?

Yes, i think that would be the way to go with overrides, that still ensures that there is decent reward for taking the "4" bonus, and it doesn't get half-reduced.

And by the way, I got the bowler in the drop, but I have not won.

You drop plus 4 and you win, end of story.

I guess there's more of the story to tell.

Yes, there always is.

[cairnswk]

So to summarise.

1. Bowler auto-deploy reduced from +4 to +2
2. Mosa<->Lefu border fixed in the xml
3. Batter 1 and 2 to start with 4 neutral
4. Batter + Fielder + "4" bonus of 2 overrides the Batter + Fielder negative bonus in the xml.

Click image to enlarge.

Files:
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... t_V26S.png
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... t_V26L.png
http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/cricket_smo_V26.xml

I'll get lackattack to upload these asap.

[natty dread]

Even if you reduce the bowler autodeploy, it will still give a drop advantage unless you code it neutral.

[cairnswk]

Even if you reduce the bowler autodeploy, it will still give a drop advantage unless you code it neutral.

Well, let's see how this firsts lot goes.

[MrBenn]

You could group all the negatives together and cap it so that you never lose more than 2, for example?

[joriki]

Sorry if I'm repeating things; I haven't read through the entire thread -- just two quick comments after starting a game on this map:

A +4 autodeploy that doesn't start out neutral gives a huge advantage and lets way too much of the game depend on the luck of the drop.

And the description of the "four runs" bonuses in the legend doesn't seem to match what actually happens: The description says that the "bonus increases to +2", which I would understand to mean that the +2 overrides the -1, but what actually happens is that a +2 comes on top of the -1, so the bonus only increases to +1.

[Victor Sullivan]

Sorry if I'm repeating things; I haven't read through the entire thread -- just two quick comments after starting a game on this map:

A +4 autodeploy that doesn't start out neutral gives a huge advantage and lets way too much of the game depend on the luck of the drop.

And the description of the "four runs" bonuses in the legend doesn't seem to match what actually happens: The description says that the "bonus increases to +2", which I would understand to mean that the +2 overrides the -1, but what actually happens is that a +2 comes on top of the -1, so the bonus only increases to +1.

Yes, that's what it means

[ender516]

Sorry if I'm repeating things; I haven't read through the entire thread -- just two quick comments after starting a game on this map:

A +4 autodeploy that doesn't start out neutral gives a huge advantage and lets way too much of the game depend on the luck of the drop.

And the description of the "four runs" bonuses in the legend doesn't seem to match what actually happens: The description says that the "bonus increases to +2", which I would understand to mean that the +2 overrides the -1, but what actually happens is that a +2 comes on top of the -1, so the bonus only increases to +1.

Yes, that's what it means

The post above by cairnswk indicates that he is changing this so that the +2 will override the -1.

EDIT: link to cairnswk's post fixed.

[Master Fenrir]

Cairns, you will find few on this site who are bigger fans of your maps than myself. I love all of your rail maps and Stalingrad is perhaps the most strategically diverse and excellent map available. However, I'm having big problems with this map.

I see that there's already been some discussion about the Bowler region. I'm not to hung up on the various -1 bonuses, as it's an inherent danger that can be dealt with, similar to the possible starts in USApocalypse.

However, this +4 is deadly. If you're considering changing the Bowler to a neutral region, I really hope you decide to implement that. As it stands now, the only way I can think to counter the possible damage a +4 auto drop on the other team would be to play this map exclusively with adjacent reinforcements, which makes from slower troop movement. However, the downfall to this is slower developing strategies.

[briggs1209]

Slight map error maybe ?

In the south african fan section the map implies that Lefu should be able to attack Mosa as there is a small section of shared territory - in reality you have to go through Tau to get to Mosa.


PS the +4 auto for the bowler is too much in my opinion - particularly in any two-player game. How about just +1

[ender516]

Slight map error maybe ?

In the south african fan section the map implies that Lefu should be able to attack Mosa as there is a small section of shared territory - in reality you have to go through Tau to get to Mosa.


PS the +4 auto for the bowler is too much in my opinion - particularly in any two-player game. How about just +1

Again, see the earlier post by cairnswk, where he fixes the Mosa/Lefu border and reduces the bowler autodeploy to +2. This will happen once lackattack uploads the new files.

[cairnswk]

Thanks ender516 for batting for the team...

Below is for those who won't read previous posts.....this has been forwarded to lackattack for adjustment.

show

[cairnswk]

This has now been updated by lackattack.

[Commander62890]

Just stopping by to say that I think both the -1 deployment and the Bowler bonus could use some tweaking.

I've only played a couple of 1v1s here, but both times, one of the two players started out with a -4 to their deployment. The other player did not have any subtractions to their deployment. That's game over right there, regardless of dice.

Bowler could use some tweaks as well, but the -1s are the biggest issue for me.




EDIT: I see that some adjustments have already been made.

[iancanton]

I've only played a couple of 1v1s here, but both times, one of the two players started out with a -4 to their deployment. The other player did not have any subtractions to their deployment. That's game over right there, regardless of dice.

this one's been solved nicely.

this +4 is deadly. If you're considering changing the Bowler to a neutral region, I really hope you decide to implement that.

i've analysed all 22 1v1 games started since the bowler autodeploy was reduced to +2 that have been completed. removing those involving the 3 ranks that have scores lower than complete noobs, we are left with 15 games. of these 15 games, player 1 won 12 (80%), while the person who received the bowler bonus in round 1 won 5 times out of 7 (71%).

this shows that, although having the bowler from the drop is a factor, who goes first is even more important. player 1 currently receives 8 troops for 24 regions, plus possibly +2 autodeploy for the bowler (roughly 33% chance).

we can kill two birds with one stone by setting the bowler as a starting neutral (perhaps a neutral-2). this means player 1 starts with only 7 troops for 23 regions in 1v1 (instead of 8 for 24), making it more difficult to knock down player 2's deployment immediately, while forcing someone who wants the bowler autodeploy to make an effort to conquer it.

ian.

[army of nobunaga]

i love your maps.. love your attitude..
but this map is a 5 unique win and hope I never hit in a random.

too linear with too many bonuses...

meaning...; in general on only a attacks b and b attacks c... and c attacks d. ... and too many bonuses for people landing in the right spot.


I think you did a map called actium (im not sure , but the point will stand) that map gets a lot of player flack as a map that well.. isnt much fun. .. But to me.. even that map is far better than this one.

Not to rub your work or make you mad. I appreciate the effort, it looks great... but to me its all about luck, not playability. If my opinion changes ill be the first in line to tell you how great you are and cricket is... but as of now, 1 star out of 10.


edit.. as i play this more... it should be called "Choke Point Silly!"

[cairnswk]

thanks aon for your feeedback, and no offence taken
perhaps more games will reveal better results