Antarctica [Quenched]

[natty dread]

how's this

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

Oh! I just noticed the sectors in the legend didn't match the ones on the map. This is also fixed now:

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

So MrBenn are you satisfied with the penguins now or do they need further adjustment?

[natty dread]

....

[JelleR]

Looks really nice, looking forward to play it!

[Falkomagno]

those ovals in the center area doenst seems like penguins at all.

[natty dread]

those ovals in the center area doenst seems like penguins at all.

Thanks for your opinion.

Have you ever actually seen a penguin?

[Falkomagno]

those ovals in the center area doenst seems like penguins at all.

Thanks for your opinion.

Have you ever actually seen a penguin?

what this supposed to mean? You think that penguins are white ovals with a black spot in the top?

[Riskismy]

I agree with Falkomagno. In fact, I couldn't even find them when he first posted this.

Maybe their fins or wings, or whatever they are, could be made more apparent?

[natty dread]

There is such a concept as stylistic drawing. Perhaps you guys have heard of such, some time in your life?

They are not meant to be 100% photorealistic representations of penguins. I had those earlier, and it was pointed out that it clashed too much with the style of the rest of the map. So I changed them to stylized, drawn penguins. According to further feedback, those penguins were reduced in size to what they are now.

So unless I can hear more compelling reasons than "hurr durr theys just white ovals durrrr" then they stay as they are. No offense meant.

[Riskismy]

I don't agree those penguins are stylized. One of the major points of stylised drawings is that you're never in doubt what they are. You might even call it 'simplified', but your penguins are just small ovals with hats.
Simple, yes. Ok, even stylized. But certainly not penguins.

What other kind of argument is there to make? They don't look like penguins, the reason why they don't do that is really irrelevant.

[natty dread]

Thanks for your opinion. I'm afraid I am forced to disagree with your view, though.

I'm not sure if you are aware that there are many species of penguins... they have some differences in how they look. It seems you have in your mind this prototypical image of "penguin", probably influenced by media, cartoons, advertising, linux, etc. It seems this is again a case where "real doesn't look real enough". It's a known phenomenon... movie and TV series producers have to deal with it all the time, because people have certain expectations on what a certain thing looks / sounds like, which differ from what they look/sound like in reality, so the TV series/movie producers have to make their effects look like what the audience thinks looks "real", not what actually looks real.

A good example: the sound effect of a horse running. Listen closely next time you see an older TV series with a horse, or even some newer ones... do they sound like coconut halves being clapped on the table? That's because those SFX were done that way. Because the audience has come to associate the sound of coconut halves with horse hooves, although in reality they sound nothing like that!

It becomes a vicious cycle: each new work needs to conform to the expectations of the audience - because "reality is not realistic enough" - and their work, in turn, contributes to the effect of the audience having a certain image of a thing.

Well, I want to break that cycle. I am not going to perpetuate your misguided views on the appearance of penguins. My penguins actually look like penguins.

Go ahead, compare the penguin I have to the photographic penguin I had in earlier versions. Then compare that penguin to the drawn penguin but in larger size. It's gog-damn spot on is what.

Also, the debate on the actual appearance of penguins notwithstanding, I don't really even see what you'd want me to do in the first place. The resolution of bitmap graphics is limited, so there's no way to add accuracy to the drawing at that scale. There's only so many pixels in an image of a certain size.

[MrBenn]

I have to say that I still really dislike the penguins; but you can tell that they're penguins (perhaps more-so than this picture, which is the sort of thing I had in mind)



All other things being equal (and I won;t be upset if the penguins disappear at some point during beta)...

[MrBenn]

Beta - Quenching

---The Final Forge period has concluded for the Antarctica Map. All objections have had their time. The Foundry and I hereby brand this map with the Foundry Beta Brand. Let it be known that this map is now ready for BETA Play. After an extended period of time in BETA and once all quirks and issues have been resolved, the map will be put into Full Play (barring any Lack vetoes).

Conquer Club, enjoy!

While the map is in BETA Play, there are a couple of administrative tasks that are required of the mapmaker(s) in addition to the initial gameplay testing:

1. Please ensure that the first post of the thread contains all the necessary information to help future visitors to the development thread; it's particularly important to ensure the most recent images are there, along with any helpful guides (such as gameplay quirks/nuances or the location/size of any starting neutrals etc.)
2. Please update the Map Information Portal with details of your map
3. Finally, it is the responsibility of the mapmaker(s) to ensure that they respond to further feedback in a timely and constructive manner.

--MrBenn

[natty dread]

I have to say that I still really dislike the penguins; but you can tell that they're penguins (perhaps more-so than this picture, which is the sort of thing I had in mind)
All other things being equal (and I won;t be upset if the penguins disappear at some point during beta)...

Well... correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you disagree with the concept of having those penguins on the map more than the actual, specific penguin images that I have. In which case I have to say... the decision to make this one impassable a "penguin zone" instead of, say, a mountain, was done to add some regional flavour to the map. To me, Antarctica and penguins go hand in hand - they are thematically almost inseparable. You can not think of Antarctica without thinking "that's where the penguins live". In reverse, you cannot think of penguins without thinking "it's those funny pseudobirds that live in Antarctica" (ok, yeah, I know about the African ones, but most people don't).

But we can agree to disagree on that.

Anyway... if the penguin zone becomes a huge issue for the map, if lots of people actually want them gone, I'm willing to consider making the penguin(s) a background element instead (perhaps on the title, like I had on very early drafts). But we'll see whether that becomes necessary or not.

Also, thanks for the beta stamp! Can't wait to begin testing this one.

[isaiah40]

Beta - Quenching

---The Final Forge period has concluded for the Antarctica Map. All objections have had their time. The Foundry and I hereby brand this map with the Foundry Beta Brand. Let it be known that this map is now ready for BETA Play. After an extended period of time in BETA and once all quirks and issues have been resolved, the map will be put into Full Play (barring any Lack vetoes).

Conquer Club, enjoy!

While the map is in BETA Play, there are a couple of administrative tasks that are required of the mapmaker(s) in addition to the initial gameplay testing:

1. Please ensure that the first post of the thread contains all the necessary information to help future visitors to the development thread; it's particularly important to ensure the most recent images are there, along with any helpful guides (such as gameplay quirks/nuances or the location/size of any starting neutrals etc.)
2. Please update the Map Information Portal with details of your map
3. Finally, it is the responsibility of the mapmaker(s) to ensure that they respond to further feedback in a timely and constructive manner.

--MrBenn

YESSSSSS!!!!!

[Victor Sullivan]

When I was a kid, I always thought Santa's elves in the North Pole rode around on penguins and walruses as like men rode on horses in the old days to get around. That reminds me, where's the walrus reserve on this map???

Hot coffee and tea all around! Crumpets are in the oven! Here's to a quick journey into live play!

[Riskismy]

Grats natty! IT's a nice looking map, even with the hatted ovals

[Falkomagno]

Is not just about to get ride off the penguins. Is to make them something accord to the map. The shapes that you think that are the quintessential stylized shape of a penguin is not. Is not even close to a penguin. Your arrogance just blind you.

Try to make a larger beak, or some inkling of feathers, or put some grey or black into them to get a better stylized version. I'm sure you can.

And stop that attitude, disagreeing with something in the map that is not just ""hurr durr theys just white ovals durrrr". Comments like that just make bad atmosphere in the foundry. Is part of the process of having the best version of the map. I don't comment anything else since I found very pleasant to the view the rest of the map

[natty dread]

Falkomagno, your opinion has been noted. I already addressed you here, which you might have missed with a lot of posts coming in after that.

I am not trying to dismiss your opinion, I am simply of the opinion that your opinion is an uninformed one. Thanks for commenting either way.

[ender516]

Unfortunately, I suspect that different display systems (monitors and adapters) will always lead to different opinions about graphics. What is clear and obvious on a system used by a artist may be lost on a less graphically advanced one.

[natty dread]

Unfortunately, I suspect that different display systems (monitors and adapters) will always lead to different opinions about graphics. What is clear and obvious on a system used by a artist may be lost on a less graphically advanced one.

Well, I do check out my maps on my laptop - which has a really crappy monitor - for that reason. And I don't think that's the case in this case. I think it's more a question of different ideas of what a penguin "should" look like.

[Gillipig]

You're really good at making maps Natty!! This one is niiice ! And it's a well needed one too! There are maps on pretty much everything but until now we didn't have a map that focused it's gameplay on Antarctica!!! This was one of the themes I really wanted to explore along with a Pangea and a Mars map! Hopefully those 2 will get made sometime in the future !

[Riskismy]

I think it's more a question of different ideas of what a penguin "should" look like.

Nope. It's a matter of being able to tell what it is in the first place.

I'll admit it's a bit clearer on the live map, for some reason. Maybe it's just that I know what they are now.

[natty dread]

You're really good at making maps Natty!! This one is niiice ! And it's a well needed one too! There are maps on pretty much everything but until now we didn't have a map that focused it's gameplay on Antarctica!!! This was one of the themes I really wanted to explore along with a Pangea and a Mars map! Hopefully those 2 will get made sometime in the future !

Thanks, I'm glad you like the map. A pangaea map might be something I might do sometime in the future...