Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 ::REVAMP::

[The Bison King]

Version 3.6

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

Number of territories: 51
Number of Bonuses: 11 + 8 road bonuses

Road bonuses are held by holding the complete path, cities can only attack the adjacent cities along the path.

and just for archival reasons, the classic version.

[TheOtherOne]

The VI bonus on the Tytherian Empire is too high, IV would be nice, maybe V. Truly, if all the bonuses would be dropped down one or two this would be a nice map.

[The Bison King]

Interesting that might be worth a try. The games get pretty high in the amount of troops due that we've played. I kind of like that because I like playing on larger maps, with a bigger scale of combat. However if some of the bonuses were slightly reduced it might make for a more stable dynamic.

[The Bison King]

I just punched the numbers into a bonus generator. It seemed to think that some of the bonuses should actually be worth more? I'm not sure I agree with that, But it did agree that the Tytherian bonus should be knocked down to 5 so I am starting to think that that is a good idea.

[MarshalNey]

I like the draft's look and shape. There's plenty of empty space right now, which will be good for adding thematic artwork, description, etc (see next paragraph). The bonus values are okay, probably a bit high, but that depends of course on the overall gameplay that you want- if you like epic numbers of armies and large maps, you really could go even farther than this.

Oh, and by the way, playing test games on a real-life board version is brilliant. That kinid of preparation shows both commitment and solid thought.

Now for some critique. The names are fine, but other than an obvious fantasy naming convention, the map lacks flavor. The gameplay right now is straight-up standard; there's nothing unique in the way a game will play out (although I really like the split bonus region in the "west").

In order to gain the support it needs, this map will need some context with which players can identify. "Central Skyatica", "Northern Caprinthia", "Tryanar"... these names sound like anything out of a D&D Forgotten Realms novel, without any of the pages of description to make them seem real.

Now, of course you don't have pages to describe these places, but you could convey at least a sense of what this land is like. Here are some of my questions-

1) Climate- is it cold or hot? Moist or dry? (I do see a desert and an oasis, so I'm leaning towards the latter) Color tones and texture could provide visual cues to a player about climate.

2) Topography- I see mountains, and I think I see rivers. The mountains are pretty explicitly impassable, but are ther impassable rivers? Are there any other geographical features... marshes, plains, hills, forests, canyons, cliffs, waterfalls, lakes, steppes, caverns, harbors, volcanoes, badlands, dunes or quicksand? A map can include some of these in the background to spice up each region... they could even have gameplay purpose perhaps.

3) Flora and Fauna- Fantasy settings often include fantastic creatures or vegetation. Are there monsters? Are they aggressive, do they form packs? Are they malevolent or intelligent? For instance, are there any vampires, witches, goblins, haunted vales, etc.? Are there mystical forces of nature in this map? Any cursed mines, or isle of dreams, or holy ground? Any poison swamps or diseased forests?

4) Settlement- where do the bonuses come from? Population centers? Are there cities, towns or just tribes? Any trading posts, ports, toll bridges or guildhalls? Any shrines, temples or cathedrals? Naming a territory or two as a city or other settlement- along with an appropriate graphic- is a simple way to enrich the map.

5) Military- Are there castles, keeps or forts? Any large walls or series of outposts to act as a line of defense? Any long tunnels, or mystical gates?

6) Political Structure- are the bonus regions kingdoms or ethnic divisions? Is there some kind of empire in play? A rebellion perhaps? Does religion play a part? Are there races other than humans (or are there any humans at all)?

7) Technology and Magic- what sort of weapons do these people use to fight each other? Are they mundane or fantastic? Are there dragon summoners or armies of undead? Is there "steampunk" technology, like airships or Rube-Goldberg gunpowder weapons? Is the setting futuristic, Renaissance, High Medieval, Hellenistic (Roman/Greek technology), Ancient World (Egyptian), or pre-civilization (Conan the Barbarian-esque)?


You don't really have to answer all of these questions, but if you take a stab at a few of them, I think you'll find a lot of little things you could add to the map to make it come to life. Then, when a player conquers Skyatica, she'll get a vision in her mind's eye of taking a battalion of dragonriders into the swirling clouds that cling to the impossible hovering citadels of that land, rather than taking over a small purple-blue blob in the middle of a bigger purple-blue blob.

Plus, the more defined your background for the map, the more possiblility for other gameplay ideas you'll likely have.

Best of luck with the map, I'm pulling for this one.

[natty dread]

I was going to say a lot of the things Marshalney said, but he fastposted me. Probably because I was sleeping.

My main point would have been:

The gameplay right now is straight-up standard; there's nothing unique in the way a game will play out (although I really like the split bonus region in the "west").

The map has a really nice visual look, I like it a lot. The legend reminds me of MtG cards for some reason. However, the gameplay is very standard, it doesn't really support the theme of the map. Check out the Dawn of Ages map for ideas how to supplement the theme of the map with gameplay features. Of course I wouldn't want you turning your map into a clone of DOA, but you should do something to the gameplay.

For example, if you had orcs on the map, you could make regions that lose troops because of orc attacks. You could have mystical temples, ruins of ancient cities, whatever you can imagine...

Anyway, I look forward to seeing where this goes.

[The Bison King]

Wow Marshalney, thanks for the in depth review! I'm glad you asked all those questions because I have answers for a lot of them!

First of all here is a link to the Map I made that originally that this was all based off of.

http://tombeuerlein.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... eneal.html

1/2) Climate & Topography- By enlarge the marked territories constitute the temperate more "livable regions of the world". The Equator runs right along the Garrean peninsula. Most of the regions around this area are fairly arid, as land to the north, along the inland sea or (Tytherian sea) becomes more temperate. To the south of the equator the elevation of the high deserts lowers into a vast basin and tropical rain forest, as you can see on the map I uploaded below. The Continent to the West is extremely fertile with a climate similar to North America's or Europe. The Southern shore (Morovia and Jenua) is drier with a more "Mediterranean" type climate. While to the north Caprinthia opens up into a vast fertile plain. The far west regions of Ifnal are mostly swampy moorland. The lower peninsula of Livonia is similar to Ireland, while the upper peninsula is similar to Michigan. Solonabirsk borders the Taiga as do the upper regions of Skyatica.

3) Flora and Fuana- Similar to Earth. Humans are the only sentient creatures. While animals are similar to those on the real planet Earth, they are more fantastical, often larger, and more dangerous. Here's a blog posting where you can see some drawing I have done.

http://tombeuerlein.blogspot.com/2009/1 ... s-and.html

4/5/6/7) Settlement, Politics, military, & Technology- I guess that when I said fantasy, I more meant that in the sense that this isn't a real location on our planet Earth. Although there may be some more fantastical elements that can take place in this world I largely imagine this to take place in a pre-industrial revolution era. In a time of Napoleonic Empires and global expansion. The Musket has just been invented and Naval power is still very important. Each nation strives to expand larger than the next to consume more natural resources, in a time when they are needed to bring their own respective societies to the next level of development. (I think that gives me a good idea for a paragraph that could decorate a corner of the map!)

If any want's me to get into the cultures and politics of the individual nations and Empire just ask, and I will.



I purposely kept the game play basic because those are the types maps I personally prefer. The "classic" maps. I'm not opposed to more complex maps with more intricate bonuses, I'm just afraid of things becoming to complicated and hard to understand. I am open to suggestions.



Here's one idea of adding capital bonuses. (that's not the graphic I would use it was just easy for demonstration) I'm not sure what the actual worth would be, maybe +3 for holding 4, something like that. I'm sure there is a formula.

I also had an idea that the Islands would be neutral territories that returned to neutral after one turn. Like the indian territories on the 13 colony map. That way it create a small natural barrier between a number of the bonuses. However this makes it impossible to have an island bonus, and it makes the territory Caspier completely irrelevant. Therefore I am more in favor of the Island bonus, but I thought I'de let you know that it was an idea.

[Kaisermikeb]

I must say I disagree with thinking that this map should be more like "Age of Realms". I really only enjoy playing on "traditional" maps, but like a wide variety to chose from. Unfortunately, many of the maps based off of real world locations are somewhat limited in diversity because of it (notable exceptions do exist though, such as Great Lakes). This map is somewhat akin to the original risk map in terms of spacing and bonuses, but is physically very different, and that's exactly the sort of map I enjoy.

On that note, I think Capital bonuses are a poor direction to go in as well.

[MarshalNey]

I must say I disagree with thinking that this map should be more like "Age of Realms".

That's not really what I was proposing. Straightforward gameplay is fine. Non-standard gameplay is also fine. That's really up to the mapmaker.

My comments were purely concerned with theme.

If a map is going to have "normal" gameplay, then it has to find its "uniqueness" in theme and the graphics that support that theme.

This works for real-world maps, because the "theme" is usually just another part of the world, with relatively known people, places, geography, etc. So the graphics and names on the map evoke a context that people can relate to.

With a fantasy map... well, we already have Midgard and Midkemdil as maps with fantasy names and normal gameplay. So that niche is already occupied, so to speak.

Then there's also Tamriel, which has very nearly normal gameplay as well.

This map has an "any 3 islands" bonus as a slight tweak on normal gameplay, but I don't think that's enough to make it stand out from the others.

I could be wrong, maybe there are a ton of players out there who are itching for this map as it stands.

In any case, I'm simply suggesting that background elements of this world (which Bison has already clearly thought about) are incorporated into the look of the map. So we get a sense that this is an alternate Imperial Age. I really don't get that right now from the map alone.

One can include background graphics without giving them an explicit gameplay purpose, as long as they aren't too conspicuous.

Btw, I like the additional landmarks in the previously white space in the lower right.

[The Bison King]

Ok, here is the final draft before I officially submit this map. Thoughts, opinions?

Changes

Background: Added a water color texture to the ocean, Added a few ships in the sea as a design element, and added a paragraph that will hopefully inspire players to go forth and conquer.

Bonuses: I made a few slight adjustments to the bonuses. Tytheria was taken down to be worth 5. Livonia was taken down to be worth 4, and Morovia was taken down to be worth 3. I also removed the capital bonuses.

I have considered the option of adding a few rail bonuses in the style of the Indian Empire map. This could be cool though not entirely necessary. However if that is something to be added it will require a lot of beta testing first.

[natty dread]

Image is too large... maximum size for a map is 840x800.

[Industrial Helix]

Very beautiful map.

But as Natty said, size is an issue.

I'd also like to see some sort of gameplay which separates it from the standard conquer an area style. You seem to be hinting at some sort of research or resources based gameplay in your story, so I'm looking forward to watching this develop.

[Erik Tall]

I like the map as is. The colors and regions are clearly marked and easy to understand. I may add that the map is also very nice looking. Very well done, I would keep it the same.

[TaCktiX]

This map looks really pretty for certain. Please change the size to match the 600x600 small and 800x800 maximums. You've got plenty of space to the map, should be no issue.

As Helix already said, you seem to be hinting at some resource gameplay. From seeing resources done badly in the past, I would suggest KISS principle on it (only Age of Merchants has been successful with multiple resources). At most, have two different resources, perhaps with different bonuses, interplay, or what-not. Since you hint of an industrial revolution, perhaps coal and iron?

Definitely develop this a little further and look into making a Design Brief for it, this idea has potential.

[The Bison King]

Ok I re-posted the newest image over the original post.

[natty dread]

...So did you do this map with watercolours and then scan it? That's pretty impressive...

[army of nobunaga]

...So did you do this map with watercolours and then scan it? That's pretty impressive...

That is what I was going to say... Seeing something like this in " Melting Pot: Map Ideas" makes me want to give up on my stupid roulette map.

[natty dread]

Oh, don't give up on your roulette map. Lack has promised us new XML features, so the idea of "randomly distributed bonuses" may yet be feasible some day...

Also, I've many times thought about drawing a map by hand and then scanning it... I even got a scanner, but being the lazy procrastinator I am I haven't managed to install the software for it yet...

[army of nobunaga]

Oh, don't give up on your roulette map. Lack has promised us new XML features, so the idea of "randomly distributed bonuses" may yet be feasible some day...

Also, I've many times thought about drawing a map by hand and then scanning it... I even got a scanner, but being the lazy procrastinator I am I haven't managed to install the software for it yet...

thanx man.. I have about 3 hours in it.. Ill draw more tonight..

back to topic.. nice looking ass map... Fill out that form and get it going.

[The Bison King]

The hard part actually came from the fact that the map was far too large for any flat bed scanner that I had "free" access to. So I had to scan it in chunks and piece it back together.

The Idea of randomly distributed bonus sounds sweet! how exactly would that work? Would you troops due be revealed to you only at the start of you turn? That seems like hat could almost make a cool new feature.

[The Bison King]

Which form?

[natty dread]

Randomly distributed bonus is something that would be cool in a roulette map, ie. you have the roulette board as territories, and each round the game picks one territory from the board that gets a bonus...

However it isn't possible yet. I'm not sure if it ever will be, but with Lack now working on new XML updates it might... however I'm not holding my breath for that one, since there are numerous other XML updates that will probably take priority (and should, because they're far more useful) such as conditional borders, conditional autodeploys and territory troop caps...

[natty dread]

Which form?

he means design brief, you submitted that already I think..

[army of nobunaga]

Which form?

he means design brief, you submitted that already I think..

yeah the design brief... not even sure why this map isnt to stage two yet..

one thing man, I KNOW you will get hammered on (because I lurk here a ton) is a theme.

I dont think the general theme of "Fantasy" will work.

But it may.

[The Bison King]

How does stage two work? This is the first map I've made so I'm sort of figuring this all out as I go along. thanks for the heads up.