Version 11.6 FRANCE 2.1

[Lancelot du Lac]

Thank you for your nice work and all these indications.
We remade the bonus.

• N. - Currently a +2 needs to be reduced to a +1
  
• Lor. - Currently a +4 needs to be reduced to a +3. One region (Meuse) is completely secluded and does not need to maintain defensive troops
• Alsace needs to be reduced to a +1. It's only two regions, and one of those regions borders a starting neutral
• F.C. also needs to be reduced to a +3 (+2 for F.C. and the +1 for the Regional Claim) as the continent itself is +4 and there is a +1 for the Regional Claim which needs to be held as part of the regular continent anyway.

• Ok, done.
  
  
  

  • B.Z.H. by itself (without the shield) needs to be reduced to a +2. That continent can be defended entirely by holding Ille et Vilaine and Morbihan. Another issue arises when you include the shield bonus as I can just move those defensive troops to Loire-Atlantique and gain an additional +1 (for a total of a +5) without having an additional border to defend. I suggest you further reduce BZH to a +1 so the composite bonus of BZH and the Bretagne shield drops to a +2 total.

• We prefer to keep +2
  
  
  

  • A similar issue arises with Rhones-Alps as the composite bonus with the Regional Claim (contained entirely in that continent) and the continent is a total of a +9. The calculator suggests a total bonus of 6.42, so lowering the total bonus for both to a +6 total would solve that problem (+5 for Rhonne Alps and the +1 for the Regional Claim)

• ok, done
  
  
  

  • The composite bonus of Paca, Corse, and the Regional Claim equals a total of 9 when the calculator indicates it should be a total bonus of 3.42. I can hold that entire chain of bonuses by defending only from Haute-Alpes, Alpes de Haute Provence, and Vaucluse. This needs significant changes either in the way of additional attack routes in, more borders to defend, or a significant reduction in the total bonus for this region.

• add a sea link between hérault and Corse du Sud
• reduce bonus PACA to +4
  
  
  
  

  • And another similar issue arises with the composite bonus of B.N., H.N., and Free Normandie. Holding those 5 regions totals yields a composite bonus of 6 when this should be lowered to no higher than a 5 total, preferably a 4. What do you think about combining that entire district and just labeling it Free Normandie? That would allow you to remove the starting neutral on Eure.

• We want to keep the two regions (HN and BN) so we reduce bonus. HN : +1 and BN : +2
  
  
  

  • The complete Paris bonus is listed at +8, but to hold that you also need to hold the inner suburbs which yields an additional +3, for a total of +11 when it probably should not be higher than 6 total. I understand the amount of neutrals to take is 30, but I'm not sure how I feel about it.

• suburbs +2
• + 6 for the region instead +8
  
  
  
  

  It looks like most of the issues arise with the Regional Claim composite bonuses so they should be relatively easy fixed. One thing I am unclear on is on the Foreign Claims. Wallonie and Nord will in fact have separate armies on them, correct? Or is that the same region? If it's the same region, have you thought about just making that actual region the color of the Claim shield?

[Mishalex]

It looks like most of the issues arise with the Regional Claim composite bonuses so they should be relatively easy fixed. One thing I am unclear on is on the Foreign Claims. Wallonie and Nord will in fact have separate armies on them, correct? Or is that the same region? If it's the same region, have you thought about just making that actual region the color of the Claim shield?

[/list]

OK, for this one, maybe I could bring some more clues...

Here, you had to know that Foreign Claim aren't include into Region Bonuses, they are free independant territories... So they are two different armies...

[Lancelot du Lac]

Update precedent post

Last update
VERSION 8.3
1. Map Name France 2.0
2. Version 8.3 [9 August 2012]
3. Dimension : 915 * 927

Click image to enlarge.

[RjBeals]

nice use of soft colors. I don't think you need all those army circles all over the place. Or if you want to use them, just make them a lot more transparent.

[Oneyed]

nice use of soft colors. I don't think you need all those army circles all over the place. Or if you want to use them, just make them a lot more transparent.

seconded.

do not write in legend numbers of neutrals in Paris.
did you though about any negative bonus? for suburbs riot any could works fine.
change "... + one regional claims for one round + one foreign claim = victory" to + one regional claim and one foreign claim for one round = victory.
bonus for regional claims means that for each shield player receive 1 troop? or when player hold every same shields?

Oneyed

[jghost7]

So, was just wondering if thought was given to this.....

...

How the the foreign claim territories work? What do they attack/bombard? What attacks or bombards them? The key states "Only Paris can attacked these territories."

...
Can a foreign claim territory attack out? For instance, can I take Paris and go through Monaco and hit Alpes-Maritime?

... Paris is rather such a focus here as all of the Foreign claims can only be hit by Paris too? So to try for the VC you only have to focus on Paris. It is wholly attainable from there. You can only attack foreign claims from Paris anyways so no one can break winning condition except by Paris. This seems to be a bit unbalanced.

... Make them(Foreign Claims) only accessible from the territory they are in. ie..only Nord attacks Wallonie. ...
....

...

I have posted it before and now jghost7 has said it as well. Something needs to be done around the Paris and Foreign/Regional claims. I like his idea for having it reversed. Foreign claims attack/bombard Paris and each other. This is a nice way to open up the board some.
No one is really going to attack the foreign claims now as to do so, you are very close to the WC.

I agree with both koontz and jghost here. I like the idea of the foreign claims also being able to attack Paris as that provides a way for someone to defend against their opponent taking the winning condition without necessarily having to break into the Paris area. As is, those regions will never be taken so I think adjacent regions should be able to attack them as well. This would also allow a player to tap down the neutrals on Paris from afar should they have eyes on the winning condition.
...

I am just thinking to spread out the Victory Condition so that it is not mostly focused on the Paris area.


Thanks,

J

[nolefan5311]

Honestly, as is, while Paris is treated as the most important area, because the neutrals are so high, I don't think it will be a factor in most games. Lowering them would probably be best (as well as making the VC harder to grab).

And the Corse bonus still looks too high. The slight modifications of attack routes doesn't appear to be enough, but I will need to look closer. Otherwise, the rest of the changes look very good.

[iancanton]

Honestly, as is, while Paris is treated as the most important area, because the neutrals are so high, I don't think it will be a factor in most games. Lowering them would probably be best (as well as making the VC harder to grab).

at the moment, paris has so many neutrals that players in most games will ignore it. instead, they'll pefer to take other bonuses or attack the enemy, so most games will be played without the capital city. to avoid this, i suggest 3 neutral troops for paris and for each of the three suburbs.

And the Corse bonus still looks too high. The slight modifications of attack routes doesn't appear to be enough, but I will need to look closer. Otherwise, the rest of the changes look very good.

a total bonus of +3 for corse makes it too strong because of its favourable corner location. +0 for the corse zone bonus is more suitable (the +1 for free corse is fine).

again, i disagree with moving the corse-du-sud sea connection from var to hérault. all attack routes on this map are real, except for this one; please remove the hérault connection, which looks ugly. u need to open up paca by creating a bridge between gard and bouche-du-rhone.

some mountains in the southwest, for example, on the north, east and south side of aveyron to protect midi pyrénées, will make things easier for someone who has the misfortune to be concentrated in that area. add some more mountains (or impassable forest, if there are no mountains there) to reduce limousin's border départements to 2; we can then reduce the bonus to +1 to make limousin less attractive compared with the larger, more difficult zones.

the peripheral bonuses, such as alsace, lorraine and BZH, have much more realistic values now.

ian.

[pamoa]

Only 33 neutrals to go through to hold the VC
Paris is rather such a focus here as all of the Foreign claims can only be hit by Paris too?
So to try for the VC you only have to focus on Paris. It is wholly attainable from there.
You can only attack foreign claims from Paris anyway so no one can break winning condition except by Paris.
This seems to be a bit unbalanced.

Something needs to be done around the Paris and Foreign/Regional claims.
I like his idea for having it reversed. Foreign claims attack/bombard Paris and each other.
This is a nice way to open up the board some.
No one is really going to attack the foreign claims now as to do so, you are very close to the VC.

I like the idea of the foreign claims also being able to attack Paris
as that provides a way for someone to defend against their opponent
taking the winning condition without necessarily having to break into the Paris area.
As is, those regions will never be taken so I think adjacent regions should be able to attack them as well.
This would also allow a player to tap down the neutrals on Paris from afar should they have eyes on the winning condition.

I suggest keep the one way attack scheme Paris>Foreign claims>target Département
but add counterstrike bombardment possibilities Foreign claims>other Foreign claims and Paris + target Département>respective Foreign claim
and widen the victory condition to the whole Île-de-France region + maybe 2 Foreign claim

Honestly, as is, while Paris is treated as the most important area, because the neutrals are so high, I don't think it will be a factor in most games.
Lowering them would probably be best (as well as making the VC harder to grab).

at the moment, Paris has so many neutrals that players in most games will ignore it.
Instead, they'll prefer to take other bonuses or attack the enemy, so most games will be played without the capital city.
To avoid this, I suggest 3 neutral troops for Paris and for each of the three suburbs.

lowering the Parisian bonuses will even worsen the problem of the easiness of VC (you only have to defend Paris)
I suggest you transform the Foreign claims>target Département link in a two-way attack route
that coupled with the lowered Parisian bonuses will rally put Paris at the centre of the fight
but giving your opponent 2 counter-attack route on VC

[Mishalex]

at the moment, paris has so many neutrals that players in most games will ignore it. instead, they'll pefer to take other bonuses or attack the enemy, so most games will be played without the capital city. to avoid this, i suggest 3 neutral troops for paris and for each of the three suburbs.

No, everyone will put his troops near Paris and will put an end quickly to the game... It's not only a 1vs1 player map!

a total bonus of +3 for corse makes it too strong because of its favourable corner location. +0 for the corse zone bonus is more suitable (the +1 for free corse is fine).

If we maintain the sea connection between Herault and Corse like we will do, I think Corse will be less "closed" and +2 will be enought, we'll see with Nolefan...

again, i disagree with moving the corse-du-sud sea connection from var to hérault. all attack routes on this map are real, except for this one; please remove the hérault connection, which looks ugly. u need to open up paca by creating a bridge between gard and bouche-du-rhone.

I agree with this connection Everyone has a thought, but we have to make choices, and Lancelot and I agree on that point, hope you'll be fine with it?

some mountains in the southwest, for example, on the north, east and south side of aveyron to protect midi pyrénées, will make things easier for someone who has the misfortune to be concentrated in that area. add some more mountains (or impassable forest, if there are no mountains there) to reduce limousin's border départements to 2; we can then reduce the bonus to +1 to make limousin less attractive compared with the larger, more difficult zones.

I'll take with Lancelot about those idea...

thanks a lot for your advice, that's precious guys !

[Mishalex]

lowering the Parisian bonuses will even worsen the problem of the easiness of VC (you only have to defend Paris)
I suggest you transform the Foreign claims>target Département link in a two-way attack route
that coupled with the lowered Parisian bonuses will rally put Paris at the centre of the fight
but giving your opponent 2 counter-attack route on VC

That's not true to do that, there is no goal for a departement to attack a foreign claim which exist to help them and provides them with some more troops (autodeploy)

[koontz1973]

at the moment, paris has so many neutrals that players in most games will ignore it. instead, they'll pefer to take other bonuses or attack the enemy, so most games will be played without the capital city. to avoid this, i suggest 3 neutral troops for paris and for each of the three suburbs.

No, everyone will put his troops near Paris and will put an end quickly to the game... It's not only a 1vs1 player map!

No they will not. Why waste troops on the hope of taking and keeping it. If spoils are that high (esc games only) players will go for the sweep of the board.

Right now, Paris is wasted space and may only be taken in a very few games.

[pamoa]

lowering the Parisian bonuses will even worsen the problem of the easiness of VC (you only have to defend Paris)
I suggest you transform the Foreign claims>target Département link in a two-way attack route
that coupled with the lowered Parisian bonuses will rally put Paris at the centre of the fight
but giving your opponent 2 counter-attack route on VC

That's not true to do that, there is no goal for a département to attack a foreign claim which exist to help them and provides them with some more troops (autodeploy)

the purpose is to give an opportunity to attack the player which is holding VC
now you only have to defend Paris
and if you lower the Parisian Bonuses
then VC would be easy for the one who drop the most around Paris
but if you want to keep Foreign Claims one-way attack on their target Département
you can also abandon Victory Condition
you have to choose either reachable but counter-attackable Victory Condition
or Paris as a bottleneck to control Foreign Claims without Victory Condition

[AndyDufresne]

nice use of soft colors. I don't think you need all those army circles all over the place. Or if you want to use them, just make them a lot more transparent.

Agreed as well.


--Andy

[nolefan5311]

at the moment, paris has so many neutrals that players in most games will ignore it. instead, they'll pefer to take other bonuses or attack the enemy, so most games will be played without the capital city. to avoid this, i suggest 3 neutral troops for paris and for each of the three suburbs.

No, everyone will put his troops near Paris and will put an end quickly to the game... It's not only a 1vs1 player map!

I think if you're worried about that, you should make the victory condition harder to obtain in the way of requiring more territories be held (i.e., all of the foreign claims plus Paris, one region in each of the regional claims, etc.). Paris might be the single most important city in the world, and I don't think it gives it justice to be completely ignored, which it will be because of the amount of neutrals defending it.

a total bonus of +3 for corse makes it too strong because of its favourable corner location. +0 for the corse zone bonus is more suitable (the +1 for free corse is fine).

If we maintain the sea connection between Herault and Corse like we will do, I think Corse will be less "closed" and +2 will be enought, we'll see with Nolefan...

I do think it needs to be a +1 total, similar to Alsace, H.N, and N. Is there a reason why you want Corse to be more valuable than those other three continents?

You guys are very close to the stamp...keep at it

[nolefan5311]

Any update coming on this one guys?

[iancanton]

there is a large number of 3-département and 4-département bonuses (such as limousin and auvergne) where all départements border other bonuses. this causes these bonuses to be high compared with the larger bonuses such as rhone-alpes or midi-pyrenées, so the latter will probably be ignored till very late in most games because they'll take too long to occupy. more impassables, such as mountains, rivers or trees will help to reduce some of these small bonuses to +2 or +3. an example: adding a forest between aisne and ardennes will reduce the champagne bonus to +3. do this to some small bonuses, but not all of them, because the openness of this map is part of its character.

there are three 3-département bonuses (basse-normande, limousin and picardie). this gives a fairly high chance of one player starting with a bonus, so we'll have to do something about that.

ian.

[PS3 Blueman]

Hello guys,

First of all, congratulations to lancelot and misha for this big job.
Finally, a map of France that looks like something.

on the graph it is very good, congratulations.

about the gameplay, I find that the region "pays de loire"
lack of a bridge between "maine" and "sarthe."

region m.p. a bonus too strong. should be a bonus to 6 max, and add it to the edge of the forest "lot" and "Aveyron" to close a little MP (bonus could suddenly drop to 5 or 6)

concerning the conditions of victory, I could see more foreign claim to have
3 is not bad, but it lacks foreign claim northwest of the map
vendee should be a foreign cllaim example. this way we can reduce the neutral troops on the outskirts of Paris three troops. and of paris 10 troops.

it is only me opinion, but I thought interesting to give you.

please excuse my English, but it is "google translate" which translates lol

strongly that one can play on this map

[nolefan5311]

Don't want to rush you here guys, but we're going to need an update on this soon (by the 9th or 10th).

[Mishalex]

Sorry guys, i'm in holidays since late august, i'll talk with lancelot...

[Mishalex]

We have to work on it soon, an update will come soon, thanks guys

[nolefan5311]

Thanks MIshalex. It's been over a month since an update was posted, so I'm going to go ahead and move this to the Recycling Box. No worries though, once an update is posted we'll move this back to the MFW.

Moved

[Lancelot du Lac]

Hello,

A first message to first apologize for the long absence. In short, the uncertainties of real life.

Now I'm back and motivated especially with the aim of completing the map for December!

Yes it is possible! I pledge to be reactivated less than 24 hours for any changes. You can not drop the water this beautiful project!

I present to you this evening (French time) recent changes requested, namely:

- More transparency on the circles troops.
- The neutral of Paris is now 10 (n10)

And here I think the only changes were to do since the last time ... ie there are at least 2 months!

Thank you all for your help on this map.


Last update
VERSION 9
1. Map Name France 2.0
2. Version 9 [8 October 2012]
3. Dimension : 915 * 927

Click image to enlarge.

Lancelot

[nolefan5311]

Awesome guys! Went ahead and moved this one back to the Main Foundry Workshop. Just don't forget to update the thread title with the date of the last update.

Glad we can get this one back into the process.

[Lancelot du Lac]

no updates ?

We can begin the XML ?