[GP] [Rules] Eliminate Deferred Troops

[Darwins_Bane]

Nothing really different? You are completely wrong. They do not deploy and end their turn because there are strategic benefits missing the turn in a variety of situations with a variety of settings on a variety of maps.

Since you are such a big proponent of this, could you provide 5 concrete situations where missing a turn gives an advantage.

[TheForgivenOne]

Can also combat missing turns by just deploying and ending their turn. Nothing really different.

Nothing really different? You are completely wrong. They do not deploy and end their turn because there are strategic benefits missing the turn in a variety of situations with a variety of settings on a variety of maps.

How so? You and your teammates all deploy on the frontline for 2 turns, he misses two then deploys the deferred on their front line.

And while you are missing you can easily be eliminated. Poof, no more troops coming from them.

[Queen_Herpes]

Nothing really different? You are completely wrong. They do not deploy and end their turn because there are strategic benefits missing the turn in a variety of situations with a variety of settings on a variety of maps.

Since you are such a big proponent of this, could you provide 5 concrete situations where missing a turn gives an advantage.

I only need to supply one. I'll do my best to come up with more, but you, DB, and you, TFO, seem to be asking me to describe the blackness of the iron pot.

ex.1.
Any team game on Classic, but lets look at a quads game. Player one on Team One has an army in Sydney, while his
teammate(s) dropped and hold Perth, Port Moresby, Jakarta, Bangkok, Mumbai, Hong Kong in a spattering that would give none of his teammates the opportunity to hold the Oceania bonus. Essentially, Player one's team has a lock on the Oceania Bonus, but it would require attacking all three teammates for one of those teammates to garner the bonus. IMHO, Team One would be better focused upon the enemy and other bonuses. The army in Sydney is sufficiently insulated from attack from Team Two such that Player one wouldn't realistically feel threatened that he could/would be taken out.
Still in this example:
Scenario a.
Escalating Spoils: Player One attacks with his forward units (those not locked in Sydney) and gains one territ per turn, earning one spoil per turn until he has 5 cards. Everyone else in the game also earns 5 cards, but, remember, player one went first. Being a smart player one, he knows that if he takes his turn he will receive the least reward when cashing his spoils if he is to cash first. So, smartly, he intentionally misses his turn. Perhaps Playa 1 on Team 2 is smart and misses his turn as well, but lets pretend that Playa 1, Team 2 cashes. Automatically, Player One, Team one is in a better position. Certainly, he risks losing his cards to elimination, but his teammates will have a better shot at grabbing his cards (seeing as Player One is locked in the corner in Sydney behind his teammates.) Certainly, this could be considered a deferred card bonus and not a deferred troop bonus. However, the deferred troops certainly aren't a negative. Player One still gets to drop those extra 3 (or more) troops wherever he wishes upon the board at the end of his turn.
Scenario b.
Escalating Spoils: Player One gets the five cards and for whatever reason, not everyone else lands 5 cards. Player One then bides his time. Misses one turn to see what happens, misses a second turn to see what happens, and upon his third turn, player one has the choice to miss his third turn, and turn over his five cards and all of his territories to one of his teammates. Here, now, you could argue that the end benefit would be to turn over cards and territoried armies to a teammate. You could argue that this is not a deferred troop bonus, and that the player (and his team) lost those troops in the deferral because player one missed all three turns. However, on each of those turns, player one could use the strategy of missing the turn and wait to play to defer those troops, or wait to pass his boarded troops, territories, and cards over to a teammate. As such, player one (and his team) benefit from the knowledge that those troops are there, if necessary.

I have other ideas popping into my head and will post them as I have time. [FFA games, 1v1]

I do concede that in many situations, deferred troops are not a bonus on the AOR maps and similar maps like the Feudals where there are auto-deploys.

[Woodruff]

Missing a turn is punitive enough. I love it when opponents miss turns, especially in team games. Missing a turn disadvantages them further. True, armies off the board can't be attacked, but they can't be used on the attack that turn, either, make a player lose a tempo.

Missing a turn in Escalating can be harmful, especially since it means losing a chance to take a card. If players are missing turns because they think doing so will help them win the game, then by all means, please keep the policy as it is. =)

What if it is a quads game on a small map with no spoils? Every player gets 3 armies per turn. If landlocked behind your own teammates, you could miss your turns and wait to drop 9 armies on one of your teammates on the front lines after you missed two turns. Could be beneficial. I'm just saying.

Yeah, what happens with any map that uses Auto Deploy? Feudal War/Epic, Lunar, AoR1/2/3, The Cupcake on Conquerman, Das Schloss. I could go on. You are already put at a disadvantage because you don't get Auto deploy troops as deferred, they are gone.

...and your point is? The are certainly situations where missing turns is not beneficial, but those that exist do not counter the reality that there exist settings and maps where there is a benefit to missing the turns.

Wait, wait, wait...you're decrying his use of "certain situations" when his response was directly to your own use of "certain situations"?

Can also combat missing turns by just deploying and ending their turn. Nothing really different.

Nothing really different? You are completely wrong. They do not deploy and end their turn because there are strategic benefits missing the turn in a variety of situations with a variety of settings on a variety of maps.

There are some very few circumstances when it can possibly be a winning strategy. They are very few.

[stahrgazer]

CC says you should take your turns (no deadbeat rule.)

CC allows players to designate substitutes (and does not prevent anyone from having a regular sub who checks any games just in case.)

Eliminating deferred troops just makes it fair for the players who had to wait the additional portion of the round for a player who didn't play... and would be consistent with ANY OTHER GAME where, if you skip, you do NOT get the benefit of receiving any portion of what you would have received if you had not skipped.

Would it suck to have an emergency that caused you to miss your turn? Yes. But since CC allows ways around totally missing a turn, CC's rules should not be designed to benefit you for missing your turn despite those methods that can prevent it.

In other words: I support the OP's request to eliminate all deferred troops, whether the miss was intentional or not.

[greenoaks]

Eliminating deferred troops just makes it fair for the players who had to wait the additional portion of the round for a player who didn't play... and would be consistent with ANY OTHER GAME where, if you skip, you do NOT get the benefit of receiving any portion of what you would have received if you had not skipped.

i play on another Risk-like gaming site and they also give you deferred troops so for me allowing deferred troops IS consistent with EVERY OTHER GAME site that i know

[TheForgivenOne]

...and your point is? The are certainly situations where missing turns is not beneficial, but those that exist do not counter the reality that there exist settings and maps where there is a benefit to missing the turns.

So what? You're allowed to come up with a "once in a blue moon" situation, but I'm not? Just because 0.01% of the time when a player misses his turn, they may come out in the positive, does not mean that we should Overhaul the whole deferred troops to negate the 99.9% of the time it doesn't. And what incentive is it for a player to come back if they miss their turn and have no troops to make up for it? I would probably deadbeat out of the game if something like that were to happen, and once Newer players realized this, they probably wouldn't come back either.

[Woodruff]

CC says you should take your turns (no deadbeat rule.)
CC allows players to designate substitutes (and does not prevent anyone from having a regular sub who checks any games just in case.)
Eliminating deferred troops just makes it fair for the players who had to wait the additional portion of the round for a player who didn't play... and would be consistent with ANY OTHER GAME where, if you skip, you do NOT get the benefit of receiving any portion of what you would have received if you had not skipped.
Would it suck to have an emergency that caused you to miss your turn? Yes. But since CC allows ways around totally missing a turn, CC's rules should not be designed to benefit you for missing your turn despite those methods that can prevent it.
In other words: I support the OP's request to eliminate all deferred troops, whether the miss was intentional or not.

I believe that anyone who gives out their password to another individual is a flaming idiot who is just an accident waiting to happen. Your stance would virtually REQUIRE me to give someone my password. Bad plan.

[Queen_Herpes]

...and your point is? The are certainly situations where missing turns is not beneficial, but those that exist do not counter the reality that there exist settings and maps where there is a benefit to missing the turns.

So what? You're allowed to come up with a "once in a blue moon" situation, but I'm not? Just because 0.01% of the time when a player misses his turn, they may come out in the positive, does not mean that we should Overhaul the whole deferred troops to negate the 99.9% of the time it doesn't. And what incentive is it for a player to come back if they miss their turn and have no troops to make up for it? I would probably deadbeat out of the game if something like that were to happen, and once Newer players realized this, they probably wouldn't come back either.

Once in a blue moon the red-red-red set is beneficial in a flat rate game, yet it is recognized as a benefit: BECAUSE IT IS.

[Woodruff]

...and your point is? The are certainly situations where missing turns is not beneficial, but those that exist do not counter the reality that there exist settings and maps where there is a benefit to missing the turns.

So what? You're allowed to come up with a "once in a blue moon" situation, but I'm not? Just because 0.01% of the time when a player misses his turn, they may come out in the positive, does not mean that we should Overhaul the whole deferred troops to negate the 99.9% of the time it doesn't. And what incentive is it for a player to come back if they miss their turn and have no troops to make up for it? I would probably deadbeat out of the game if something like that were to happen, and once Newer players realized this, they probably wouldn't come back either.

Once in a blue moon the red-red-red set is beneficial in a flat rate game, yet it is recognized as a benefit: BECAUSE IT IS.

Every escalating game ever created really doesn't equate to "once in a blue moon".

[SantaRuga]

Ok guys I'm brand hew here and there's something i'm missing for sure:
if a player wants to skip his turn cause his "strategy" (if we can call it this way)is getting deferred troops in next or two-next round, why he just cant click the button "skip this game"? isn't it the same?
why he lets his time running out without doing anything - and i have to wait 24HRS??
repeating, i'm new, but really i don't get this crazy rule of getting deferred troops, considering i'm playing 4 games and lost 2 'cause i didn't understand IT WAS a strategy!!
coming back to the question, is or isn't the same clicking the "skip turn" button?

[TheForgivenOne]

Ok guys I'm brand hew here and there's something i'm missing for sure:
if a player wants to skip his turn cause his "strategy" (if we can call it this way)is getting deferred troops in next or two-next round, why he just cant click the button "skip this game"? isn't it the same?
why he lets his time running out without doing anything - and i have to wait 24HRS??
repeating, i'm new, but really i don't get this crazy rule of getting deferred troops, considering i'm playing 4 games and lost 2 'cause i didn't understand IT WAS a strategy!!
coming back to the question, is or isn't the same clicking the "skip turn" button?

Skip turn doesn't skip your turn.

It just skips to the next game in your list of games. So say you enter game XXXXXXX and you don't feel like playing it quite yet (For whatever reason). You can press Skip turn, to go to Game YYYYYYYY instead.

[Woodruff]

Ok guys I'm brand hew here and there's something i'm missing for sure:
if a player wants to skip his turn cause his "strategy" (if we can call it this way)is getting deferred troops in next or two-next round, why he just cant click the button "skip this game"? isn't it the same?

Not really. The "skip this game" button just skips it as he meanders through his games. It doesn't skip his TURN at all. He can always go back and take his turn anytime he wants (within the 24 hour period). It's two completely different issues.

repeating, i'm new, but really i don't get this crazy rule of getting deferred troops, considering i'm playing 4 games and lost 2 'cause i didn't understand IT WAS a strategy!!

A) It is NOT a viable strategy in the vast majority of situations.
B) If you lost games because someone else did this, then you lost because of your own poor strategy (or possibly poor dice), NOT because they did this.

coming back to the question, is or isn't the same clicking the "skip turn" button?

There is no "skip turn" button. And so no, they are not the same. Unfortunately, we must wait the 24 hours for them to not take their turn.

[SantaRuga]

ok i got it.
the "skip this game" button allows u just to take your time, and there's no "skip turn" button.
sure i lost for my own poor strategy (i didnt mean to find an excuse for loosing!) 'cause i'm playing the first 4 games in 4 different options and maps (never played with those in real life!).
(i like a lot "fog of war". that's misterious!)
anyway, got it. thanx.

[Arethusa]

This is an extract of a suggestion I made in an earleir thread.

May I suggest that the originator of the game has an option to set the rules for deadbeats. ie 1 strike, 2 Strikes or 3 strikes and your out. It's then up to players joining the game to decide whether or not they can make the commitment knowing that if they miss 1 turn, they're out.

I would also suggest we have 12 hour timers as an option, this will also speed up games.

You could also use autodeploy for missed turns, so that players get their troops for missing a turn, but not the decision as to where they are deployed. Autodeploy would place 1 army on random territories.

[PLAYER57832]

a 12 hour limit would be hard for many people,who do like to sleep once in a while.

[Queen_Herpes]

Seriously, though, who "likes" deferred troops. I see your arguments in favor of them, and I understand them, but I just cannot imagine how it is helpful that players get to miss 3 turns and slow down the game for everyone else.

[TheForgivenOne]

I do. I once in a while miss a turn legitimately, due to being away from my computer unexpectedly for longer than I expected. It also helps me know which games I missed turns in.

[Queen_Herpes]

I do. I once in a while miss a turn legitimately, due to being away from my computer unexpectedly for longer than I expected. It also helps me know which games I missed turns in.

I respect your post, but I have a hard time believing it because you are a mod and you kind of are on here once every 24 hours. In the instances where you missed a turn, did it really help you? I think there are two scenarios: one is a benefit that can bolster your position, the other is a detriment where you cannto recover from it. I don't see a missed turn with deferred troops "leveling" the game.

[greenoaks]

i missed some turns last weekm maybe 150, could have been more

bad weather interupted my isp's service. i had a connection but usually nothing could get through. there as a lot of timing out, a lot of refreshing then 5 seconds of awesome download speed and then it was gone again for another 10 minutes.

i am pleased CC does not try to destroy me because real life got in the way.

[Queen_Herpes]

i missed some turns last weekm maybe 150, could have been more

bad weather interupted my isp's service. i had a connection but usually nothing could get through. there as a lot of timing out, a lot of refreshing then 5 seconds of awesome download speed and then it was gone again for another 10 minutes.

i am pleased CC does not try to destroy me because real life got in the way.

But were you able to recover in those games?

[TheForgivenOne]

I do. I once in a while miss a turn legitimately, due to being away from my computer unexpectedly for longer than I expected. It also helps me know which games I missed turns in.

I respect your post, but I have a hard time believing it because you are a mod and you kind of are on here once every 24 hours. In the instances where you missed a turn, did it really help you? I think there are two scenarios: one is a benefit that can bolster your position, the other is a detriment where you cannto recover from it. I don't see a missed turn with deferred troops "leveling" the game.

Not always. For a year and a half I dealt with chronic migraines, and looking at a computer screen caused severe pain. Once I lost the interwebz in my sock drawer (haha, it was actually gone for no reason) For well over 70 hours. I managed to win a few of the games i was in, but that was because I was winning it already. But it gave me a chance to get back into it. Even though I got deferred troops I was at a severe disadvantage due to losing bonuses, and getting attacked. A few times I go over to my friends house (Oh my goodness, a Moderator has a life? IMPOSSIBLE), and I don't bring my laptop. Then I end up staying over for an extra day so I've gone 36~ hours away from CC.

Just because I am a mod, does not mean my life revolves around CC.

[jefjef]

Look. I have already spoken my mind on this matter. Miss turns and lose the troops. If you want to have a life then go ahead. Just don't screw up my games by making me wait and then rewarding me with a freaking stack to deal with.

OK. Move along. Nothing to see or resolve here.

[Queen_Herpes]

perhaps merge with this one?:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=134710

[DP757]

Look. I have already spoken my mind on this matter. Miss turns and lose the troops. If you want to have a life then go ahead. Just don't screw up my games by making me wait and then rewarding me with a freaking stack to deal with.

OK. Move along. Nothing to see or resolve here.

My thoughts exactly... rewarding someone for taking up 24 hours and missing a turn!?! We all have lives outside of CC... if you miss turns, you miss turns... why should the game change to your advantage? I understand this is archived and going nowhere, but I've just had 3 team games where my team basically got screwed because of deferred troops (hence why I looked up the topic). Being able to fortify your position after attacking is a crazy bonus for someone who's well fortified to get, it's used strategically by some and should be done away with.