100,000 Christians are murdered for their faith each year

[saxitoxin]

There was a Columbia University professor, Herbert Schneider, who spent 6 years in Italy observing the fascist state at work and wrote the only first-person observations recorded in English of it. If you can find a copy of his long out-of-print The Fascist Government of Italy (1935) I recommend it as it presents a starkly different perspective than more contemporary texts. Anyway, in there on page 17 he notes:

For the first time in Italian history church and state are practically separated. Cavour's ideal of a "free church in a free state" inspired by French anti-clericalism, proved impossible. And yet, in a sense, it is realized now; for though neither church nor state is politically free, both are free of each other and religion is less political in power than it has ever been.

It should be out of copyright, so here's a link:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015013016749;view=1up;seq=13

perfetto - grazie!

This is not a book about fascism nor about Italy; it is confined to the description of how fascism is working in Italy at the moment.

That one, right?

correct

[Symmetry]

You really don't need to mess around with my quotes- I gave you the entire book there.

[BigBallinStalin]

If a sentence has more than 10 words, can Sym not recall it?

[saxitoxin]

You really don't need to mess around with my quotes

Prof. Schneider?

[Symmetry]

You really don't need to mess around with my quotes

Prof. Schneider?

Meh, I've been called worse.

[saxitoxin]

Christians and Jews.

All the others are engaged in slaughter to at least some extent.

Christians enjoy privileged status in Muslim-majority states until Christian nations blow the bejeezus out of their governments ...

In Iraq, Christians rose to the highest levels of society under Saddam Hussein’s regime, while in Egypt, Coptic Christians were protected from ultraconservative Salafists under Hosni Mubarak. As secular leaders from the secretive Alawite sect, the Assad dynasty largely preserved Christian life, protecting Syria’s minorities from what was perceived as a collective threat from the country’s Sunni majority.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/opini ... .html?_r=0

The covenant that the Prophet concluded with St. Catherine's (http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.com/th ... romise.htm) prohibits obeisant Muslims from molesting Christians. That dates back to when Englishmen were running about in loincloths worshiping goats.*

* not referring to my pool house, where this still occurs two weekends each month

[mrswdk]

Exactly. Muslims now persecute Christians in countries like Egypt.

[saxitoxin]

here is an historically accurate scene from a Hollywood movie-film about Saladin the Great which is, admittedly, just a gratuitous attempt by me to inject imagery of Orlando Bloom into this thread so Symmetry will like me

[Symmetry]

If a sentence has more than 10 words, can Sym not recall it?

I was with you up until you said "not".

[thegreekdog]

Folks, this entire debate is asinine. I almost think you're debating about the meaning of the word crusade rather than actually discussing the specifics of a particular war.

Correct. Aren't most of our debates asinine? And by "our" I mean Symmetry and me. Basically, here, Symmetry doesn't like that he can't prove the war in Afghanistan was a religious war for the United States so he's going to try to make himself look good by asking me a bunch of questions. Then I ask some additional questions of him, which he doesn't answer. And sure enough he posts an entirely irrelevant link about how President Bush is going to talk to some messianic Jews about being messianic Jews.

[thegreekdog]

I have myself argued that when George Bush used the term 'crusade' it was non-religious.

Seeing as Symmetry is now using outright lies to further a case that he is obviously only making to derail my thread I think we can dismiss his input and return to the original point: that Christians and Jews are the only religious followers who are not routinely slaughterly followers of other religions.

You know that I can read this, right? Who are you talking to?

Don't go playground/schoolyard on me now. "We're not talking to him now" got kinda dull after I was 8.

I'll still talk to you little buddy!

As I stated previously, you provided no evidence that the war in Afghanistan was a religious crusade except that the word "crusade" was used by a president who happens to be Christian. I gave you a number of elements of what I think of as a religious crusade. You ignored those, I suppose. And the term "crusade" is not necessarily religious in nature; it can be used in a non-religious context. Do you want to try again from the beginning?

(1) Symmetry, do you believe the war in Afghanistan was a religious crusade by the United States?
(2) If the answer to (1) is yes, why do you believe this? What evidence do you have?

[Symmetry]

I have myself argued that when George Bush used the term 'crusade' it was non-religious.

Seeing as Symmetry is now using outright lies to further a case that he is obviously only making to derail my thread I think we can dismiss his input and return to the original point: that Christians and Jews are the only religious followers who are not routinely slaughterly followers of other religions.

You know that I can read this, right? Who are you talking to?

Don't go playground/schoolyard on me now. "We're not talking to him now" got kinda dull after I was 8.

I'll still talk to you little buddy!

As I stated previously, you provided no evidence that the war in Afghanistan was a religious crusade except that the word "crusade" was used by a president who happens to be Christian. I gave you a number of elements of what I think of as a religious crusade. You ignored those, I suppose. And the term "crusade" is not necessarily religious in nature; it can be used in a non-religious context. Do you want to try again from the beginning?

(1) Symmetry, do you believe the war in Afghanistan was a religious crusade by the United States?
(2) If the answer to (1) is yes, why do you believe this? What evidence do you have?

1) Sure.
2) Because it was declared a crusade.

Technically question 2) was 2 questions, but I think you accept that your country's leader declared that it was a crusade, so I probably don't have to post a vid.

[thegreekdog]

Right, that's what I thought and that's what we covered before and you're clearly wrong. So there's nothing more to discuss.

Some other discussions about crusades may be enlightening for you Symm.

General Dwight D. Eisenhower, June 6, 1944 - "You are about to embark upon the great crusade towards which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you... I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty and skill in battle."

Lloyd George, May 1916 - Men are flocking to join "a great crusde" for justice and right.

Harold Macmillan, May 1916 - "Many of us could never stand the train and endure the horrors which we see every day, if we did not feel that this was more than a war - a Crusade."

I can find more if you'd like, but were World Wars One and Two religious crusades?

[Symmetry]

Right, that's what I thought and that's what we covered before and you're clearly wrong. So there's nothing more to discuss.

Some other discussions about crusades may be enlightening for you Symm.

General Dwight D. Eisenhower, June 6, 1944 - "You are about to embark upon the great crusade towards which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you... I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty and skill in battle."

Lloyd George, May 1916 - Men are flocking to join "a great crusde" for justice and right.

Harold Macmillan, May 1916 - "Many of us could never stand the train and endure the horrors which we see every day, if we did not feel that this was more than a war - a Crusade."

I can find more if you'd like, but were World Wars One and Two religious crusades?

You seem unsure as to whether your points are clear and there is nothing to discuss, or you have a load of evidence and you want to discuss it.

Perhaps, in the interests of going back to basics, you can give me an example of a conflict that you consider to be a crusade, so that we have a point of comparison.

[thegreekdog]

Right, that's what I thought and that's what we covered before and you're clearly wrong. So there's nothing more to discuss.

Some other discussions about crusades may be enlightening for you Symm.

General Dwight D. Eisenhower, June 6, 1944 - "You are about to embark upon the great crusade towards which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you... I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty and skill in battle."

Lloyd George, May 1916 - Men are flocking to join "a great crusde" for justice and right.

Harold Macmillan, May 1916 - "Many of us could never stand the train and endure the horrors which we see every day, if we did not feel that this was more than a war - a Crusade."

I can find more if you'd like, but were World Wars One and Two religious crusades?

You seem unsure as to whether your points are clear and there is nothing to discuss, or you have a load of evidence and you want to discuss it.

Perhaps, in the interests of going back to basics, you can give me an example of a conflict that you consider to be a crusade, so that we have a point of comparison.

No thanks. I think the onus is on you at this point. I await your response with bated breath.

[Symmetry]

Right, that's what I thought and that's what we covered before and you're clearly wrong. So there's nothing more to discuss.

Some other discussions about crusades may be enlightening for you Symm.

General Dwight D. Eisenhower, June 6, 1944 - "You are about to embark upon the great crusade towards which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you... I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty and skill in battle."

Lloyd George, May 1916 - Men are flocking to join "a great crusde" for justice and right.

Harold Macmillan, May 1916 - "Many of us could never stand the train and endure the horrors which we see every day, if we did not feel that this was more than a war - a Crusade."

I can find more if you'd like, but were World Wars One and Two religious crusades?

You seem unsure as to whether your points are clear and there is nothing to discuss, or you have a load of evidence and you want to discuss it.

Perhaps, in the interests of going back to basics, you can give me an example of a conflict that you consider to be a crusade, so that we have a point of comparison.

No thanks. I think the onus is on you at this point. I await your response with bated breath.

Well throw me a bone here, I've answered some your questions, and just have a few of my own. It's basic really, if you don't consider anything to be a crusade, then I have virtually no chance at all in persuading you that something is a crusade.

If you can provide an example of something you consider to be a crusade, then we can discuss what differentiates your ideal crusade from my case.

[mrswdk]

Symmetry's input to debate on this forum generally seems to shift between making assertions that he clearly knows are false and puerile name calling. I somewhat doubt that his time away from this forum was spent in meaningful introspection.

[Symmetry]

Symmetry's input to debate on this forum generally seems to shift between making assertions that he clearly knows are false and puerile name calling. Somehow I doubt his time away from this forum has been spent in meaningful introspection.

Still here dude. But thanks for the enlightening contribution.

[2dimes]

You don't seem aware that most of the nazis were fascist atheists. Any I have known certainly were. 2 I think but only 1 absolutely for sure in case you're planning to ask how many.

You don't seem aware that Fascism and Catholicism were deeply intertwined in 1930's and 40's Europe.There was a neo-pagan element amongst some Nazis,Himmler for one,but I've never heard this theory advanced before.In fact the Nazis if anything hated the Bolsheviks so much that anything related to it in the culture of the time such as atheism was hated as well.

2dimes is correct; atheists or creative pagans - fascism is a traditionalist worldview and Christianity is an anti-traditionalist religion; the two are totally incompatible* ... if GreecePWNS is here I think he could note that the current Golden Dawn party in Greece used to espouse a pagan outlook until they had to switch to run-of-the-mill Christianity to mainstream themselves ... that rank-and-file party members were Christians, or that there was never suppression of Christianity in Germany, was because the party intelligentsia had to respond to functional political realities (anti-Hitler faction Nazis like the Strasser brothers didn't have to deal with these realities and you can see a purer form of Nazi theology in their writings)

Besides my anecdotal claim from talking to real people who stated their beliefs and those of their families. I probably should have wrote "met" instead of known since I have met several. (No memorable count.) And really only spent a little time around 1 or 2.

I think declaring your self to be a follower of the one well known for teaching "Love even your enemy."
then killing people seems at minimum a bit disingenuous. Could it be some of the "Christians" are fibbing, just a little?

[BigBallinStalin]

Right, that's what I thought and that's what we covered before and you're clearly wrong. So there's nothing more to discuss.

Some other discussions about crusades may be enlightening for you Symm.

General Dwight D. Eisenhower, June 6, 1944 - "You are about to embark upon the great crusade towards which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you... I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty and skill in battle."

Lloyd George, May 1916 - Men are flocking to join "a great crusde" for justice and right.

Harold Macmillan, May 1916 - "Many of us could never stand the train and endure the horrors which we see every day, if we did not feel that this was more than a war - a Crusade."

I can find more if you'd like, but were World Wars One and Two religious crusades?

You seem unsure as to whether your points are clear and there is nothing to discuss, or you have a load of evidence and you want to discuss it.

Perhaps, in the interests of going back to basics, you can give me an example of a conflict that you consider to be a crusade, so that we have a point of comparison.

Haha! You'd have to say, "Yes, TGD, WW1 and WW2 are crusades."

Since you didn't, you're being illogical, or you're trolling--neither of which is surprising.

[saxitoxin]

You don't seem aware that most of the nazis were fascist atheists. Any I have known certainly were. 2 I think but only 1 absolutely for sure in case you're planning to ask how many.

You don't seem aware that Fascism and Catholicism were deeply intertwined in 1930's and 40's Europe.There was a neo-pagan element amongst some Nazis,Himmler for one,but I've never heard this theory advanced before.In fact the Nazis if anything hated the Bolsheviks so much that anything related to it in the culture of the time such as atheism was hated as well.

2dimes is correct; atheists or creative pagans - fascism is a traditionalist worldview and Christianity is an anti-traditionalist religion; the two are totally incompatible* ... if GreecePWNS is here I think he could note that the current Golden Dawn party in Greece used to espouse a pagan outlook until they had to switch to run-of-the-mill Christianity to mainstream themselves ... that rank-and-file party members were Christians, or that there was never suppression of Christianity in Germany, was because the party intelligentsia had to respond to functional political realities (anti-Hitler faction Nazis like the Strasser brothers didn't have to deal with these realities and you can see a purer form of Nazi theology in their writings)

Besides my anecdotal claim from talking to real people who stated their beliefs and those of their families. I probably should have wrote "met" instead of known since I have met several. (No memorable count.) And really only spent a little time around 1 or 2.

I think declaring your self to be a follower of the one well known for teaching "Love even your enemy."
then killing people seems at minimum a bit disingenuous. Could it be some of the "Christians" are fibbing, just a little?

2dimes may be able to offer first-hand testimony to this, but many contemporary (I'm not sure if this is the case or not with historic) Nazis, reject Christianity as a Jewish conspiracy to enslave Aryans through tricksterdom, or to suppress knowledge originating with Abraxas with false teachings from the Jewish prophet, Jesus. This is an easy way to tell the difference between fascists and coarse conservative racists like the KKK / English Defense League or intellectual conservative racists like that Mankow / Macknow (sp?) guy up in Manitoba or wherever he's at, who don't subscribe to any of that.

edit - just bing-dot-commed him, it's Makow ... I must have been thinking of the radio DJ Mancow

[mrswdk]

Mankiw?

[2dimes]

...many contemporary (I'm not sure if this is the case or not with historic) Nazis, reject Christianity as a Jewish conspiracy to enslave Aryans through tricksterdom, or to suppress knowledge originating with Abraxas with false teachings from the Jewish prophet, Jesus.

Right, which for anyone who values that knowledge and uses it as a base for their religion would be logical.

Christianity was the most vocal claim of the west up until this century. Even during the hippy/new age movements leading up to Aquarius.

Sure there are some denying it here but go to any allied cemetery in the world. What do you think the plus signs represent?

The one thing that puzzles me is how the Christians tend to distance themselves from the fact that Jesus was a Hebrew. To the point of changing his name. It must stem from fear.

[_sabotage_]

If Jesus were a considered a "Jew" then the law which he suggested we uphold

"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4"They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger."

They needed to establish themselves in the seat of Moses in order to demand our subservience. If Jesus is a Jew (there is no dispute about this) then we are under the commands of the Jewish seat of Moses rather than their superimposed one.