Tea Party Defense Spending

[Night Strike]

In any event, have at it with Phatscotty and Night Strike... I will attempt to enjoy seeing them argue why we need military bases in Germany and South Korea to protect our national defense.

Third post of the thread I clearly said I wouldn't mind closing some of our international bases. However, I do think the two you listed are important. Germany because it is our massive military hospital where our injured troops first go when they leave the current war theaters while South Korea is important due to the constants threat from North Korea. We could probably close the base in Japan (or maybe the South Korea one and keep Japan open) as one that is probably no longer needed.

[GreecePwns]

Night Strike, please expand on your point on North Korea being a threat, and why South Korea and Japan cannot defend themselves.

[Woodruff]

In any event, have at it with Phatscotty and Night Strike... I will attempt to enjoy seeing them argue why we need military bases in Germany and South Korea to protect our national defense.

Third post of the thread I clearly said I wouldn't mind closing some of our international bases. However, I do think the two you listed are important. Germany because it is our massive military hospital where our injured troops first go when they leave the current war theaters while South Korea is important due to the constants threat from North Korea. We could probably close the base in Japan (or maybe the South Korea one and keep Japan open) as one that is probably no longer needed.

There isn't "one" base in Japan and South Korea. Heck, there's more than one Air Force base in Japan, never mind Army and Navy. And Germany's got Army posts spread throughout the country. You can literally get lost almost anywhere in the country and find your way to a close Army base.

[Night Strike]

In any event, have at it with Phatscotty and Night Strike... I will attempt to enjoy seeing them argue why we need military bases in Germany and South Korea to protect our national defense.

Third post of the thread I clearly said I wouldn't mind closing some of our international bases. However, I do think the two you listed are important. Germany because it is our massive military hospital where our injured troops first go when they leave the current war theaters while South Korea is important due to the constants threat from North Korea. We could probably close the base in Japan (or maybe the South Korea one and keep Japan open) as one that is probably no longer needed.

There isn't "one" base in Japan and South Korea. Heck, there's more than one Air Force base in Japan, never mind Army and Navy. And Germany's got Army posts spread throughout the country. You can literally get lost almost anywhere in the country and find your way to a close Army base.

Fair enough. I know that most of the majorly wounded in combat go to at least one of the bases in Germany and I know that I had an uncle stationed at one of the bases in Japan. If there are as many bases in each country as you say, then I'm sure many could be closed. And I would support closing many of them.

[Phatscotty]

So if the Tea Party is so concerned with cutting our spending, why is it that they seem to be wholly against cutting military spending? Why is no one up in arms over this like they are over the more "socialistic" programs?

IDK what you are talking about, or how you come to the assumption the Tea Party is against cutting military spending.

Military needs to be cut. Everything needs to be cut. What part of everything do you fail to understand the last 100 times I said as much? Oh, not enough to stop Woody from creating a thread questioning futher.

Woodruffs attempt to bedazzle the Tea Party fails.

[Phatscotty]

So if the Tea Party is so concerned with cutting our spending, why is it that they seem to be wholly against cutting military spending? Why is no one up in arms over this like they are over the more "socialistic" programs?

original tea party members who support ron paul's politics are in favor of cutting military spending. check out paul's platform, seriously. he's way different from the sarah palin tea party.

I concur. Will only add that even though I am for cutting the military, I still understand the military is the #1 priority for the gov't. We still need to spend a lot on it.

[saxitoxin]

In the latest edition of LEECH OR PUPPY? choose which areas of military spending to cut.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=148685&p=3247821#p3247821

[Woodruff]

So if the Tea Party is so concerned with cutting our spending, why is it that they seem to be wholly against cutting military spending? Why is no one up in arms over this like they are over the more "socialistic" programs?

IDK what you are talking about, or how you come to the assumption the Tea Party is against cutting military spending.

I don't know how you can avoid that conclusion, by observing those the Tea Party allegedly swept into Congress and how they're reacting to the idea of cutting military spending. Unless you're just closing your eyes to it, which is a distinct probability.

Military needs to be cut. Everything needs to be cut. What part of everything do you fail to understand the last 100 times I said as much? Oh, not enough to stop Woody from creating a thread questioning futher.
Woodruffs attempt to bedazzle the Tea Party fails.

YOU are not the Tea Party, Phatscotty. What YOU say doesn't change policy at all. What those the Tea Party elected say and what those the Tea Party elected DO FOR POLICY is what matters. You should try paying attention to what they're doing.

[Phatscotty]

So if the Tea Party is so concerned with cutting our spending, why is it that they seem to be wholly against cutting military spending? Why is no one up in arms over this like they are over the more "socialistic" programs?

IDK what you are talking about, or how you come to the assumption the Tea Party is against cutting military spending.

I don't know how you can avoid that conclusion, by observing those the Tea Party allegedly swept into Congress and how they're reacting to the idea of cutting military spending. Unless you're just closing your eyes to it, which is a distinct probability.

Military needs to be cut. Everything needs to be cut. What part of everything do you fail to understand the last 100 times I said as much? Oh, not enough to stop Woody from creating a thread questioning futher.
Woodruffs attempt to bedazzle the Tea Party fails.

YOU are not the Tea Party, Phatscotty. What YOU say doesn't change policy at all. What those the Tea Party elected say and what those the Tea Party elected DO FOR POLICY is what matters. You should try paying attention to what they're doing.

then why the F are you asking me?

I am part of the Tea Party, along with a millions of Independents and millions of Democrats. I know what I'm talking about, and it's crystal clear you are the one who is far behind the times and in denial of the revolution.


I know my people. I can speak for the majority.

I have seen too many demands and concessions to the repeated comments that the military should be cut, so I reject your observation flat out. Sure, you might have seen one or two people make comments (Jon Mccain? LOL!) but it certainly is not an issue at any of the Tea Parties or any of our sites. Is that a valid way to come to my conclusion?

Can you show me which examples you are talking about as "the Tea Party reacting to the idea of cutting military spending?"

I can safely say the Tea Party position on the issue is we can only afford just over half the money (60%) we are spending, as evidences by the reality that our gov't has to borrow 40 cents of every dollar that is spent. Everything is going to need to be cut somewhat. Nothing is off the table as far as cuts.

Our Credit rating as a country is on downgrade notice. How about you stop fighting against people who are just trying to protect our AAA credit rating? When are you gonna get pissed about debts and overspending? Are you now? Do you understand what a downgrade would mean to me, you, and everyone we know? Do you?

[thegreekdog]

Woodruff, for my own part, anyone that I had the opportunity to help elect in 2010 (one person) will not be voted for by me again when he runs again... precisely because he's a neo-conservative and not a republican (little r).

[PLAYER57832]

Woodruff, for my own part, anyone that I had the opportunity to help elect in 2010 (one person) will not be voted for by me again when he runs again... precisely because he's a neo-conservative and not a republican (little r).

The problem is, you DID vote them in...
and I DO lay the blame at Tea Party rhetoric.

[PLAYER57832]

I believe very much in a strong US military also, for what should be obvious reasons. By the same token, I well recognize the vast amount of savings that can be found in the military without damaging that role.

I came into this thread late, and this might be better in another thread, but I would be very interested in your personnal perspective on what should be cut in the military. (seriously)

[GreecePwns]

I do appreciate the Tea Party ideal of voting out those who go against the ideology. Eventually after cycling through enough, you'll find enough people who support the true libertarian cause.

[Woodruff]

So if the Tea Party is so concerned with cutting our spending, why is it that they seem to be wholly against cutting military spending? Why is no one up in arms over this like they are over the more "socialistic" programs?

IDK what you are talking about, or how you come to the assumption the Tea Party is against cutting military spending.

I don't know how you can avoid that conclusion, by observing those the Tea Party allegedly swept into Congress and how they're reacting to the idea of cutting military spending. Unless you're just closing your eyes to it, which is a distinct probability.

Military needs to be cut. Everything needs to be cut. What part of everything do you fail to understand the last 100 times I said as much? Oh, not enough to stop Woody from creating a thread questioning futher.
Woodruffs attempt to bedazzle the Tea Party fails.

YOU are not the Tea Party, Phatscotty. What YOU say doesn't change policy at all. What those the Tea Party elected say and what those the Tea Party elected DO FOR POLICY is what matters. You should try paying attention to what they're doing.

then why the F are you asking me?

I am part of the Tea Party, along with a millions of Independents and millions of Democrats. I know what I'm talking about, and it's crystal clear you are the one who is far behind the times and in denial of the revolution.

Oh brother.

I know my people. I can speak for the majority.
I have seen too many demands and concessions to the repeated comments that the military should be cut, so I reject your observation flat out. Sure, you might have seen one or two people make comments (Jon Mccain? LOL!) but it certainly is not an issue at any of the Tea Parties or any of our sites. Is that a valid way to come to my conclusion?

No, I would say it's not a valid way. I voted for Obama. I don't agree with what Obama has done since he's been in office. Because of that, I have been highly vocal about his failures in that regard. I don't hear many Tea Partiers being highly vocal about their politicians' (that they're so proud to have put into office) unwillingness to cut the defense budget.

I can safely say the Tea Party position on the issue is we can only afford just over half the money (60%) we are spending, as evidences by the reality that our gov't has to borrow 40 cents of every dollar that is spent. Everything is going to need to be cut somewhat. Nothing is off the table as far as cuts.

YOUR politicians absolutely disagree with that last statement.

Our Credit rating as a country is on downgrade notice. How about you stop fighting against people who are just trying to protect our AAA credit rating? When are you gonna get pissed about debts and overspending? Are you now? Do you understand what a downgrade would mean to me, you, and everyone we know? Do you?

What gives you the idea that I'm satisfied with where our debts and spending are? More of your reading comprehension skills in action, I presume?

[Woodruff]

Woodruff, for my own part, anyone that I had the opportunity to help elect in 2010 (one person) will not be voted for by me again when he runs again... precisely because he's a neo-conservative and not a republican (little r).

The problem is, you DID vote them in...
and I DO lay the blame at Tea Party rhetoric.

That's thoroughly unfair. I voted for Obama. Obama's policies largely SUCK (capital S). I don't believe I hold any responsibility for that because Obama's CAMPAIGN PROMISES DID NOT SUCK (nearly as much, with some exceptions). It's not my fault he was full of shit. All I can do at this point is hope he's not the best candidate available in the next election cycle.

[Phatscotty]

So, nobody can show a single Tea Party reaction to proposed military cuts?

Why does this thread even exist?

[Woodruff]

I believe very much in a strong US military also, for what should be obvious reasons. By the same token, I well recognize the vast amount of savings that can be found in the military without damaging that role.

I came into this thread late, and this might be better in another thread, but I would be very interested in your personnal perspective on what should be cut in the military. (seriously)

Oh God, where to start...

Well, the obvious one is get us the f*ck out of Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. Particularly if we're not going to fix the country and "build bridges to peace" like we should have started to do so many years ago (that has been, in my opinion, the single biggest failure of the War on Terror".

There are a lot of overseas bases that should be closed. I agree with Night Strike that our major medical facilities overseas should remain open, as the service they provide if we should have to deal with another World War situation are invaluable (and very costly to re-create). As well, some intelligence posts overseas probably need to remain intact. But many can be closed with very little harm to our national security.

There are some others that I can't think of off the top of my head, but BigBallinStalin had a poll up on this subject with some really good selections (and I can't find it now...can someone point me to it?).

[Woodruff]

So, nobody can show a single Tea Party reaction to proposed military cuts?
Why does this thread even exist?

Do you pay attention at all to what your alleged Tea Party Congresscritters are up to, Phatscotty? Because if you were, you'd already know about their reactions.

[saxitoxin]

No cut to U.S. forces can occur without a fundamental shift in U.S. domestic policy.

- The U.S. needs to continue receiving tributes from China in the form of Treasury purchases to fund domestic spending programmes.
- China is obligated to continue sending tributes to the U.S. because of American consumption of Chinese output at levels that China cannot domestically sustain.

This is a relationship of mutualism. To prevent it from becoming parasitic, the U.S. needs to contain Chinese economic growth to a manageable level. It has effectively accomplished this by using overwhelming offensive military force to create permanent instability in the Middle East, driving up the price of oil upon which China is completely dependent. This is the same reason the U.S. can't switch off a fossil fuel based energy system. The loss of the U.S. market would further drop the price of oil and speed Chinese economic growth. As China grows it will no longer need U.S. export markets. Once it no longer needs U.S. export markets it will stop sending its annual tribute.

If the U.S. wants to cut military spending the political leadership will need to either:

(a) cut domestic spending in dramatic fashion

or

(b) nationalize the entire economy (raising taxes will never be sufficient as more than a majority of the U.S. economy is already under state control)

Unless it does one of those two things the Secret State that exists behind the actors in Congress and the White House will never permit a cut in military spending or the continued application of offensive force worldwide as they realize this will lead to institutional collapse of the nation.

[saxitoxin]

BTW, by "secret state" I'm referring to the "Deep State" as described by Dr. Tunander at the University of Gothenburg:

In a 1955 study of the United States State Department, Hans Morgenthau discussed the existence of a US ‘dual state’. According to Morgenthau, the US state includes both a ‘regular state hierarchy’ that acts according to the rule of law and a more or less hidden ‘security hierarchy’—which I will refer to here as the ‘security state’ (also known in some countries as the ‘deep state’) —that not only acts in parallel to the former but also monitors and exerts control over it. In Morgenthau’s view, this security aspect of the state—the ‘security state’—is able to ‘exert an effective veto over the decisions’ of the regular state governed by the rule of law. While the ‘democratic state’ offers legitimacy to security politics, the ‘security state’ intervenes where necessary, by limiting the range of options the democratic politicians can pursue. While the ‘democratic state’ deals with political alternatives, the ‘security state’ enters the scene when ‘no alternative exists.'

The secret state is the responsible nanny of the democratic state. The secret state sees itself as the safety valve that acts to prevent unvetted leaders from introducing policies that aren't risk mitigated. I'm sure Barack Obama genuinely wanted to keep even one of his campaign promises but, after inauguration, he found himself confronted by the reality of the secret state. Barack Obama is a nice and pleasant man but, ultimately, is rather meek and timid with a bland and inconsequential life story and no real cajones unlike, say, John Kennedy.

[PLAYER57832]

BTW, by "secret state" I'm referring to the "Deep State" as described by Dr. Tunander at the University of Gothenburg:

In a 1955 study of the United States State Department, Hans Morgenthau discussed the existence of a US ‘dual state’. According to Morgenthau, the US state includes both a ‘regular state hierarchy’ that acts according to the rule of law and a more or less hidden ‘security hierarchy’—which I will refer to here as the ‘security state’ (also known in some countries as the ‘deep state’) —that not only acts in parallel to the former but also monitors and exerts control over it. In Morgenthau’s view, this security aspect of the state—the ‘security state’—is able to ‘exert an effective veto over the decisions’ of the regular state governed by the rule of law. While the ‘democratic state’ offers legitimacy to security politics, the ‘security state’ intervenes where necessary, by limiting the range of options the democratic politicians can pursue. While the ‘democratic state’ deals with political alternatives, the ‘security state’ enters the scene when ‘no alternative exists.'

The secret state is the responsible nanny of the democratic state. The secret state sees itself as the safety valve that acts to prevent unvetted leaders from introducing policies that aren't risk mitigated. I'm sure Barack Obama genuinely wanted to keep even one of his campaign promises but, after inauguration, he found himself confronted by the reality of the secret state. Barack Obama is a nice and pleasant man but, ultimately, is rather meek and timid with a bland and inconsequential life story and no real cajones unlike, say, John Kennedy.

I believe that if you add in the "corporate state", then you would have close to the full truth.

[PLAYER57832]

I believe very much in a strong US military also, for what should be obvious reasons. By the same token, I well recognize the vast amount of savings that can be found in the military without damaging that role.

I came into this thread late, and this might be better in another thread, but I would be very interested in your personnal perspective on what should be cut in the military. (seriously)

Oh God, where to start...

Well, the obvious one is get us the f*ck out of Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. Particularly if we're not going to fix the country and "build bridges to peace" like we should have started to do so many years ago (that has been, in my opinion, the single biggest failure of the War on Terror".

This one rather surprises me. That is Libya, sure. Iraq -- thought we were already moving toward that. Afghanistan, however, my reading has been that if we pull out now, we will leave the country even more rife for control by Talibahn and Talibahn-like groups. In retrospect, I think we were wrong to go in. That is, I think had we left things alone, it would have dissolved on its own for far better result. However, aren't we past that point now?

There are a lot of overseas bases that should be closed. I agree with Night Strike that our major medical facilities overseas should remain open, as the service they provide if we should have to deal with another World War situation are invaluable (and very costly to re-create). As well, some intelligence posts overseas probably need to remain intact. But many can be closed with very little harm to our national security.

Off hand, I agree. I just don't know enough to specify which ones.

There are some others that I can't think of off the top of my head, but BigBallinStalin had a poll up on this subject with some really good selections (and I can't find it now...can someone point me to it?).

I can remember some particular machinary (cannot remember if it was certain helicoptors, planes or what) could be stopped. I could also see some rather small tweaks in things like moving expenses. I can remember young soldiers being put up in apartments stocked with "rent a center" stuff, for example. I could go out to local stores and BUY the dishes, etc for less than a few month's rentals. On the other hand, I know of some special needs families that literally left everything they had behind, including specialized equipment, because it was too expensive to move. (in some cases "just" things to which the special needs kids were attached). I do understand the basic needs of the military to move people around and so forth, but I think there is room for some particular accomodations. Overall, even spending a tad more on a few, but in a need-based way, would wind up being balanced by "lack of need" cuts in other places. I think there are many little tweaks like this that could be implemented if the people involved were listened to more.

I also think we HAVE to pay more attention to both the mental health of soldiers, but also families. Again, this might seem to be an immediate expenditure..a nd in some cases it would be. However, the long term savings in medical and other costs would be phenomenal. Many small communities are tight, do rally around the families of those deployed. However, sometimes it seems that the government rather gets in the way instead of helping.

I probably know more about that aspect than the actual military bits. I am sure that more savings is gained from the big stuff, but I also think that paying attention to the smaller details helps make the whole system work better.. and that goes a long way.

[AAFitz]

So if the Tea Party is so concerned with cutting our spending, why is it that they seem to be wholly against cutting military spending? Why is no one up in arms over this like they are over the more "socialistic" programs?

Whoa, whoa, whoa... lets not be crazy... that shit employs alot of the teabaggers...cant be cutting there. Its those damn pimped out teachers that are the problem. That $20 billion they spent air conditioning the tents in the mideast was absolutely justified.
[Adult swim]:)

(Please do keep in mind, I hardly suggest we do not need to air condition the tents. Hell, the guys are fighting for us, so if it was possible I think we should build them hotels. In fact, I think it would have been better to simply start building hotels, businesses and cities, and water parks, because I think that return investment, would have been probably a little higher than killing a bunch of people because they are pissed off because they didnt have enough food or water to feed their children, which in the end, is the real, basic source of the problems in the world. )

[Woodruff]

I believe very much in a strong US military also, for what should be obvious reasons. By the same token, I well recognize the vast amount of savings that can be found in the military without damaging that role.

I came into this thread late, and this might be better in another thread, but I would be very interested in your personnal perspective on what should be cut in the military. (seriously)

Oh God, where to start...

Well, the obvious one is get us the f*ck out of Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. Particularly if we're not going to fix the country and "build bridges to peace" like we should have started to do so many years ago (that has been, in my opinion, the single biggest failure of the War on Terror".

This one rather surprises me. That is Libya, sure. Iraq -- thought we were already moving toward that. Afghanistan, however, my reading has been that if we pull out now, we will leave the country even more rife for control by Talibahn and Talibahn-like groups. In retrospect, I think we were wrong to go in. That is, I think had we left things alone, it would have dissolved on its own for far better result. However, aren't we past that point now?

Here's my feeling...from the beginning (well, a tiny bit after the beginning, but you know what I mean), we should have been building both countries back up. The way to get NATIONS out of the terrorism business is by improving the lives of the citizens. Give them something so that it's NOT so easily worth dying for. But we didn't do that, and we've never really tried to do so. So it's time to just get the f*ck out. We're not helping our cause at all by staying, in my opinion, and we're not at all slowing down terrorism in the two regions by being there. We're just...there. Wasting our money.

[PLAYER57832]

Here's my feeling...from the beginning (well, a tiny bit after the beginning, but you know what I mean), we should have been building both countries back up. The way to get NATIONS out of the terrorism business is by improving the lives of the citizens. Give them something so that it's NOT so easily worth dying for. But we didn't do that, and we've never really tried to do so. So it's time to just get the f*ck out. We're not helping our cause at all by staying, in my opinion, and we're not at all slowing down terrorism in the two regions by being there. We're just...there. Wasting our money.

I absolutely agree with the first part. I am not so sure about the second.. but you may be in a position to know more than I on this.

I said a while ago that one of the best things we could have done, should STILL do in both Afghanistan and Iraq is to fund schools -- schools that recognize the culture, but that support a moderate and not extreme view. (girls and boys educated seperately, but educated. Learn the K'ran, but also about the world, etc.) Sadly, I think right now we do need a military/police force to ensure those things can happen. However, I suspect that many villagers will suddenly be a lot less friendly to the extremists if they see real hope, real education for their kids.

I.e. three cups of tea... not guns