Chinese Manufacturing

[PLAYER57832]

It is worth taking a look at the Daily Show segment on this.

a link? I did not see it above, unless I goofed somehow.

For me, the real answer is that things are so intertwined its essentially impossible to avoid those products and still have any kind of electronics. I HAVE tried, but when not having a computer will cut out most of our income, its not an effective choice. I do buy used items, so these companies are at least not benefitting directly. I was actually was given this computer (it was a throw-away for a business because of a small glitch with which I can live).

[Juan_Bottom]

I went down the list, the only companies I'm involved with are Microsoft and possibly Barnes & Noble. Other than being too poor to buy anything ever, I don't know what I'm supposed to do about this. I gave up on everyone but Barack Obama a while ago anyway.

[thegreekdog]

I went down the list, the only companies I'm involved with are Microsoft and possibly Barnes & Noble. Other than being too poor to buy anything ever, I don't know what I'm supposed to do about this. I gave up on everyone but Barack Obama a while ago anyway.

There are two problems here:

First, the mistreatment of workers in China, a country that, given its rhetoric and type of government, should be glorifying workers.

Second, the people and government in the United States have a problem with "sending jobs overseas." This would be a perfect rallying cry for Americans to stop gross abuse of workers and, at the same time, bring jobs back to the United States. The corollary to that is we'd have to decide how well to try the U.S. workers who make these products and live with the potential increase in price of such products.

[barackattack]

First, the mistreatment of workers in China, a country that, given its rhetoric and type of government, should be glorifying workers.

The People's Authoritarian Capitalist Party?

Because the Chinese government totally represents the people, and shit.

I meant that it's the business of the Chinese and not anyone else. I hate when hippies stick their noses into another country's affairs.

And how is the Chinese government any less representative than, say, the governments of the US, UK etc.? And yadda yadda.

[PLAYER57832]

[
Second, the people and government in the United States have a problem with "sending jobs overseas." This would be a perfect rallying cry for Americans to stop gross abuse of workers and, at the same time, bring jobs back to the United States. The corollary to that is we'd have to decide how well to try the U.S. workers who make these products and live with the potential increase in price of such products.

But that's the thing. This has never been about average, working Americans getting jobs. This is ahout those at the top getting wealthy.

Just look at the evidence.

Walmart shows us that most Americans really don't truly care about jobs. If they did, they would not buy from Walmart. Yet, it is now the largest retailer in the US and employs more people than any other US company.. and largely at not much above minimum wage, with very poor benefits. If you want a summary of what is wrong with America, THAT is it!

[PLAYER57832]

And how is the Chinese government any less representative than, say, the governments of the US, UK etc.? And yadda yadda.

You have obviously never done an internet search in China (I haven't either) or talked to people who have (that, I have done!).

Our countries may be less than perfect, but they don't interfere in our lives to the extent of China.. at least yet, at least until the social conservative agenda gets more power.

(a quick capstone: still represses most religions, allowing only officially designated representatives to go unharassed; comes down on anyone seriously opposing the government be they artist or whomever; One child policy -- relaxed a tad, but only a tad; limits access to many websites, including anything that legitimately discusses Tibet).

[PLAYER57832]

I went down the list, the only companies I'm involved with are Microsoft and possibly Barnes & Noble. Other than being too poor to buy anything ever, I don't know what I'm supposed to do about this. I gave up on everyone but Barack Obama a while ago anyway.

If you carry it out to the companies these companies supply, etc then it is truly hard to avoid them. You CAN buy used, which at least means the person getting your money is not those places directly. However, we are not likely to see PCs at our local "farmer's market" cooperative any time soon.

[BigBallinStalin]

[
Second, the people and government in the United States have a problem with "sending jobs overseas." This would be a perfect rallying cry for Americans to stop gross abuse of workers and, at the same time, bring jobs back to the United States. The corollary to that is we'd have to decide how well to try the U.S. workers who make these products and live with the potential increase in price of such products.

But that's the thing. This has never been about average, working Americans getting jobs. This is ahout those at the top getting wealthy.

Just look at the evidence.

Walmart shows us that most Americans really don't truly care about jobs. If they did, they would not buy from Walmart. Yet, it is now the largest retailer in the US and employs more people than any other US company.. and largely at not much above minimum wage, with very poor benefits. If you want a summary of what is wrong with America, THAT is it!

You're looking at 10% of the exchange while missing the remaining 90%.

[john9blue]

today i went to a hugeass wal-mart. they had underground parking, cart escalators, a food court, and a strip mall built into the side of the building. i bought a month's worth of food for $100. shit got out of hand.

hooray for capitalism

edit: by "today" i mean "yesterday", been up all night lol

[AAFitz]

It is worth taking a look at the Daily Show segment on this.

Pretty scary actually. Its more or less what anyone at the top of a corporation aims for, even if they dont know it. Its actually the ultimate conclusion of pure capitalism, and no labor unions, and Im amazed at the number of people in this country, who dont realize they are arguing and voting for the same kind of treatment in the future here, or how close that reality really is.

And keep in mind, Im not suggesting some kind of grand conspiracy either, just wealth, greed, power and corruption, working towards what it always achieves if allowed to flourish unchecked, as it has been increasingly allowed to do so.

I sometimes feel as though the pains of history, have been in vain, since so few learn from them.

They instead use up the rewards so hard fought, and piss on the memories that sacrificed to gain them.

[AAFitz]

today i went to a hugeass wal-mart. they had underground parking, cart escalators, a food court, and a strip mall built into the side of the building. i bought a month's worth of food for $100. shit got out of hand.

hooray for capitalism

edit: by "today" i mean "yesterday", been up all night lol

Yeah, I boycott walmart as much as I can.

It has nothing to do with the fact that they try to make money. However, what they have done in stores, is literally steal from their employees.

They have had, and essentially trained managers, to erase overtime from the computers to not pay the employees their just due.

Again, this was so widespread as to be considered company policy.

So, you have a company that pays their workers as low as possible, keeps their hours low enough to refuse health insurance, makes them work for free, and steals from them when they accidentally are allowed to work overtime...

And all this, is not because the company cannot survive or profit by following the rules...no, this is really just to gain a few extra bucks on top of a healthy profit margin to boot. And these are Americans we essentially condone them stealing from, every time we step foot in one.

I always find it so amazing that people who supposedly believe in the words of Christ, do not speak out against such things in this world, since any that have even read a few passages, would know this kind of treatment of other people was essentially why he supposedly made the trip in the first place.

That is why atheists disregard the absolute hypocrisy of the supposed religious believers so often.

Though maybe John, you were up all night, praying for forgiveness. If so,

[john9blue]

today i went to a hugeass wal-mart. they had underground parking, cart escalators, a food court, and a strip mall built into the side of the building. i bought a month's worth of food for $100. shit got out of hand.

hooray for capitalism

edit: by "today" i mean "yesterday", been up all night lol

Yeah, I boycott walmart as much as I can.

It has nothing to do with the fact that they try to make money. However, what they have done in stores, is literally steal from their employees.

They have had, and essentially trained managers, to erase overtime from the computers to not pay the employees their just due.

Again, this was so widespread as to be considered company policy.

So, you have a company that pays their workers as low as possible, keeps their hours low enough to refuse health insurance, makes them work for free, and steals from them when they accidentally are allowed to work overtime...

And all this, is not because the company cannot survive or profit by following the rules...no, this is really just to gain a few extra bucks on top of a healthy profit margin to boot. And these are Americans we essentially condone them stealing from, every time we step foot in one.

I always find it so amazing that people who supposedly believe in the words of Christ, do not speak out against such things in this world, since any that have even read a few passages, would know this kind of treatment of other people was essentially why he supposedly made the trip in the first place.

That is why atheists disregard the absolute hypocrisy of the supposed religious believers so often.

Though maybe John, you were up all night, praying for forgiveness. If so,

fitzy, i'm starting to think our relationship won't go anywhere if you keep thinking i'm an evangelical christian hypocrite every time we talk. that's all you ever say to me.

p.s. where did you hear all this? sources?

[barackattack]

And how is the Chinese government any less representative than, say, the governments of the US, UK etc.? And yadda yadda.

You have obviously never done an internet search in China (I haven't either) or talked to people who have (that, I have done!).

Our countries may be less than perfect, but they don't interfere in our lives to the extent of China.. at least yet, at least until the social conservative agenda gets more power.

(a quick capstone: still represses most religions, allowing only officially designated representatives to go unharassed; comes down on anyone seriously opposing the government be they artist or whomever; One child policy -- relaxed a tad, but only a tad; limits access to many websites, including anything that legitimately discusses Tibet).

Ummmmmmmmmm what?

They still represent the people and the interests of the people to more or less the same extent as any Western government. They just do it in a cooler, less bullshitty way.

[Woodruff]

Walmart shows us that most Americans really don't truly care about jobs. If they did, they would not buy from Walmart. Yet, it is now the largest retailer in the US and employs more people than any other US company.. and largely at not much above minimum wage, with very poor benefits. If you want a summary of what is wrong with America, THAT is it!

f*ck WAL-MART!!!!


(There goes that tic again...)

[AAFitz]

today i went to a hugeass wal-mart. they had underground parking, cart escalators, a food court, and a strip mall built into the side of the building. i bought a month's worth of food for $100. shit got out of hand.

hooray for capitalism

edit: by "today" i mean "yesterday", been up all night lol

Yeah, I boycott walmart as much as I can.

It has nothing to do with the fact that they try to make money. However, what they have done in stores, is literally steal from their employees.

They have had, and essentially trained managers, to erase overtime from the computers to not pay the employees their just due.

Again, this was so widespread as to be considered company policy.

So, you have a company that pays their workers as low as possible, keeps their hours low enough to refuse health insurance, makes them work for free, and steals from them when they accidentally are allowed to work overtime...

And all this, is not because the company cannot survive or profit by following the rules...no, this is really just to gain a few extra bucks on top of a healthy profit margin to boot. And these are Americans we essentially condone them stealing from, every time we step foot in one.

I always find it so amazing that people who supposedly believe in the words of Christ, do not speak out against such things in this world, since any that have even read a few passages, would know this kind of treatment of other people was essentially why he supposedly made the trip in the first place.

That is why atheists disregard the absolute hypocrisy of the supposed religious believers so often.

Though maybe John, you were up all night, praying for forgiveness. If so,

fitzy, i'm starting to think our relationship won't go anywhere if you keep thinking i'm an evangelical christian hypocrite every time we talk. that's all you ever say to me.

p.s. where did you hear all this? sources?

Who said anything about evangelical?

In any case, I agree its probably not fair to use you as an example, though you very often do post that you are a religious believer, and I suppose its wrong for me to assume your particular religion gives a shit about human beings.

I apologize if it doesn't.

I hope it does allow for forgiveness though.

-for the record... I did say I try to boycott Walmart, and given the information that I actually have about them, I fully accept that me shouting hypocrite, its...hypocritical, at least on some level. I leave these obvious clues and openings and I do so very much hoping that people will actually call me out on them, so that I can use myself as an example, and in some small way, show that I very much understand the thought process, and how people must very much educate themselves as to how the world really works, or be clouded in the assumption that they fight for good, when they are actually doing the devils work...metaphorically speaking of course.

[BigBallinStalin]

It is worth taking a look at the Daily Show segment on this.

Pretty scary actually. Its more or less what anyone at the top of a corporation aims for, even if they dont know it. Its actually the ultimate conclusion of pure capitalism, and no labor unions, and Im amazed at the number of people in this country, who dont realize they are arguing and voting for the same kind of treatment in the future here, or how close that reality really is.

And keep in mind, Im not suggesting some kind of grand conspiracy either, just wealth, greed, power and corruption, working towards what it always achieves if allowed to flourish unchecked, as it has been increasingly allowed to do so.

I sometimes feel as though the pains of history, have been in vain, since so few learn from them.

They instead use up the rewards so hard fought, and piss on the memories that sacrificed to gain them.

Or maybe it has something to do with the extremely low price of Chinese labor and its very high supply.

But, you're right. Those vague, ultimate conclusions and bullshit bullshit surely must be the answer. Care to throw in any more emotional, abstract "reasoning"?

[AAFitz]

today i went to a hugeass wal-mart. they had underground parking, cart escalators, a food court, and a strip mall built into the side of the building. i bought a month's worth of food for $100. shit got out of hand.

hooray for capitalism

edit: by "today" i mean "yesterday", been up all night lol

Yeah, I boycott walmart as much as I can.

It has nothing to do with the fact that they try to make money. However, what they have done in stores, is literally steal from their employees.

They have had, and essentially trained managers, to erase overtime from the computers to not pay the employees their just due.

Again, this was so widespread as to be considered company policy.

So, you have a company that pays their workers as low as possible, keeps their hours low enough to refuse health insurance, makes them work for free, and steals from them when they accidentally are allowed to work overtime...

And all this, is not because the company cannot survive or profit by following the rules...no, this is really just to gain a few extra bucks on top of a healthy profit margin to boot. And these are Americans we essentially condone them stealing from, every time we step foot in one.

I always find it so amazing that people who supposedly believe in the words of Christ, do not speak out against such things in this world, since any that have even read a few passages, would know this kind of treatment of other people was essentially why he supposedly made the trip in the first place.

That is why atheists disregard the absolute hypocrisy of the supposed religious believers so often.

Though maybe John, you were up all night, praying for forgiveness. If so,

fitzy, i'm starting to think our relationship won't go anywhere if you keep thinking i'm an evangelical christian hypocrite every time we talk. that's all you ever say to me.

p.s. where did you hear all this? sources?

As far as the PS, there have been documentaries, and while I did not fact check them myself, the information was sourced.
Interviews, pictures, court cases. They were well documented.

It revealed the following reasons to boycott walmart.

Extensive ecological damage: mostly due to improper storage of chemicals, mostly to save money.
Stealing: Managers changed the hours in the computer.
Veiled and direct threats to job for not working late for free.
Abuse of social services: (one could argue) Giving workshops on how to use welfare to allow employees to survive on meager wages, while hiring them for the bare minimum to allow them to pay them the least amount.
Charity Walmart employees donated more to charity, than the actual owners of the corporation
Indentured servants the above story shows the working conditions of the plants they use for suppliers

Now, these are all off the top of my head. I do remember them from the documentaries, and articles Ive read. Some are clearly worse than others, and some could even just be called business, but as I said, they have actively stolen from employees, and on a grand scheme. This does not happen by accident in a company this size.

Now that many of these problems have come to light, they of course have done what I would say has been the bare minimum to correct some of them, but do not make the mistake in assuming their greed and activities were accidental.

For any that doubt these claims, I have seen them on more than one and at least 3 different locations. If you really care why you are saving 10 bucks when you enter a Walmart, I highly suggest you look it up.

I personally believe they are an example of everything that is wrong with our country right now, and a glimpse at where it is headed if we are complicit.

[AAFitz]

It is worth taking a look at the Daily Show segment on this.

Pretty scary actually. Its more or less what anyone at the top of a corporation aims for, even if they dont know it. Its actually the ultimate conclusion of pure capitalism, and no labor unions, and Im amazed at the number of people in this country, who dont realize they are arguing and voting for the same kind of treatment in the future here, or how close that reality really is.

And keep in mind, Im not suggesting some kind of grand conspiracy either, just wealth, greed, power and corruption, working towards what it always achieves if allowed to flourish unchecked, as it has been increasingly allowed to do so.

I sometimes feel as though the pains of history, have been in vain, since so few learn from them.

They instead use up the rewards so hard fought, and piss on the memories that sacrificed to gain them.

Or maybe it has something to do with the extremely low price of Chinese labor and its very high supply.

But, you're right. Those vague, ultimate conclusions and bullshit bullshit surely must be the answer. Care to throw in any more emotional, abstract "reasoning"?

Yours in the vague bullshit bullshit as it always is.

My views are simply based on my overall view of history, and the current trends with my strong education in economics to boot.

Of course, since if I type more than three lines you will complain my post is too long, and now that I summarize that its too short, What I will throw in is simply: fubbs.

You are of course free to not agree with my view, but suggesting I have some obligation to show all reasons for them is ridiculous, especially since if you actually read the posts you complained were too long in the past...most of that info has been presented. Good Day!

By the way, your argument that its just the large supply of workers that justifies such practices is about the same justification that was used for slavery. Its a complicated discussion, and you really have proven you're incapable of understanding the deeper issues. Im sure youll have a great picture to post though, as per your usually response when you've been owned...which...given a look through your posts...is quite often.

[john9blue]

those reasons to boycott walmart are either illegal practices or due to the shortcomings of our current laws on environmental policy/minimum wage/welfare/etc.

the illegal practices (stealing, job threats) are on an individual basis and it's fallacious to indict an entire corporation for the actions of a few people.

the (legal) "abuse" of our laws about minimum wage and so forth is only "abuse" in the cases where one doesn't agree with the end result. how can you blame someone for trying to achieve wealth in our society, when they are still following the rule of law? it's human nature to try and get as much as you can out of any system. if you don't like the outcomes of wal-mart's actions, it would be much better to try and change the laws themselves than attempt to boycott and cry out against every person that uses the laws to become successful.

[BigBallinStalin]

You mention pure capitalism, then assume that labor unions could never exist in such a world. Then you make an abstraction as to how the institutions would shape incentives so that in this theoretical world, which has never existed and which you then supply certain givens, the outcome would certainly be negative.

This is based on your "overall view of history, and the current trends with [your] strong education in economics to boot."


You do realize what you're doing, right?

You're taking the institution of corporations from the real world, and then assuming that the rules of the game for corporations and the consequences which follow would be exactly the same for "pure capitalism." You assume away labor unions because somehow no one would be capable of forming one--yet the legal institutions in your abstract world somehow grant the legal foundations for corporations but not for any labor unions.

It goes on with your other assumptions. Wealth, power, greed, and corruption would lead to your already confined conclusion. Of course, it's easy for you to whisk away morality because surely moral constraints would somehow never play a role in your idea of pure capitalism. Just assume that moral values become corrupt and that civil liberties and legal repercussions would never occur, and presto! your imagined outcome becomes correct--because you've limited the scope of possibilities to fit your preconceived notion on pure capitalism.

That's what you're doing, and it's bullshit. Complete rubbish.

If you're trying to critique pure capitalism while exercising economic logic, you're failing at it.

Look at "credentials." You base your scenario on "current trends" (i.e. NOT pure capitalism, in this real world), and then copy-paste them onto your abstract world of pure capitalism. Come on! If this was trolling, BA would be jealous!

tl;dr - You can invent whatever imagined constraints you want in order to reach your conclusion. That's not a good argument.

[barackattack]

I saw myself mentioned. I don't really have anything further to add, other than how much I like China, but I really felt like showing my face and soaking up the adoration.

[BigBallinStalin]

You gotta win first to get the adoration. Unsuccess leads to homeless.

[barackattack]

'unsuccess' is your attempts to troll the nihilism thread, my friend.

[john9blue]

at least we're all friends here <3

[Woodruff]

the illegal practices (stealing, job threats) are on an individual basis and it's fallacious to indict an entire corporation for the actions of a few people.

Bullshit. If it were only "a few people", that might be the case. Yet it has been documented that managers have consistently been fired shortly following refusing to manipulate the pay records for overtime. Sure, there are always excuses, but in almost every case the excuses are exceptionally weak...this is absolutely an "unwritten corporate policy". Of course, WalMart has gained the wonderful advantage of having their employees BE UNABLE TO SUE THE COMPANY VIA CLASS ACTION with a similarly weak excuse, so these situations are always viewed as individual accounts rather than as the oversight policy that it clealry is.

I have to be honest here...anyone who advocates for WalMart's practices are either heartless or ignorant (as in they haven't looked into the situation). Which are you?