Who is the Best US President: Wilson, FDR or Obama?

[GabonX]

IMO, it was the most historic war in 400 years

Even in backtracking your opinions are just slightly less laughable.

It wasn't backtracking, Gabby, is was correcting my bad Englishing (i.e. "most historic war in history").

Tell me more about how England, France, and Israel were "defeated" in 1956 and how this war was more historic than the one where they invented the atom bomb...

[saxitoxin]

IMO, it was the most historic war in 400 years

Even in backtracking your opinions are just slightly less laughable.

It wasn't backtracking, Gabby, is was correcting my bad Englishing (i.e. "most historic war in history").

Tell me more about how England, France, and Israel were "defeated" in 1956 and how this war was more historic than the one where they invented the atom bomb...

When your troops end the conflict by fleeing at 70 mph toward waiting evacuation ships, all the while taking incoming fire from Fedayeen, that's one indicator you've been defeated.

When your economy has collapsed and your Prime Minister forced to resign from a hospital bed where he's been confined for "stress" that's one indicator you've been defeated.

When the one objective you entered the war to achieve has failed - preventing Egyptian nationalization of the Canal - that's one indicator you've been defeated.

I think you're upset the American side won and the Israeli side lost. Don't worry, the Israelis got their revenge a decade later when they machine-gunned the surviving American sailors of USS Liberty in liferafts. That's something you can be proud of, I guess.

[GabonX]

IMO, it was the most historic war in 400 years

Even in backtracking your opinions are just slightly less laughable.

It wasn't backtracking, Gabby, is was correcting my bad Englishing (i.e. "most historic war in history").

Tell me more about how England, France, and Israel were "defeated" in 1956 and how this war was more historic than the one where they invented the atom bomb...

When your troops end the conflict by fleeing at 70 mph toward waiting evacuation ships, all the while taking incoming fire from Fedayeen, that's one indicator you've been defeated.

When your economy has collapsed and your Prime Minister forced to resign from a hospital bed where he's been confined for "stress" that's one indicator you've been defeated.

When the one objective you entered the war to achieve has failed - preventing Egyptian nationalization of the Canal - that's one indicator you've been defeated.

I think you're upset the American side won and the Israeli side lost. Don't worry, the Israelis got their revenge a decade later when they machine-gunned the surviving American sailors of USS Liberty in liferafts. That's something you can be proud of, I guess.

Your off topic trolling is ruining Iliad's troll thread. Much of what you say (here and in general) is factually incorrect and seemingly added for dramatic effect.

I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with Israel but your delusions are unhealthy. I'm not sure if you believe the things you say or if you're just trying to convince others of your narrative, but it's not grounded in facts.

[notyou2]

Not so sure about that. I was unaware of the USS Liberty incident until Saxi raised it and I googled it.

[GabonX]

Not so sure about that. I was unaware of the USS Liberty incident until Saxi raised it and I googled it.

It happened, but the assertions he makes about it are ridiculous. The idea he presents that the incident was purposeful retribution for something Eisenhower did more than a decade before as opposed to a mistake made at the height of war tensions is ludicrous.

[notyou2]

You may be right there, also, I didn't read anything about machine gunning the survivors in their life rafts, but it appears to be based in reality.

[GabonX]

You may be right there, also, I didn't read anything about machine gunning the survivors in their life rafts, but it appears to be based in reality.

That's what he does. He takes something that's kinda true but then he adds layers of slander. I'm pretty sure he just outright made up the part about machine gunning people in life rafts, troops fleeing at 70mph while being fired on in 56 etc.

He just really hates Israel.

[saxitoxin]

Lt. Commander Ennes - USS Liberty survivor
"Israeli reconnaissance pilots were heard telling their headquarters that we were an American ship."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/4a_ennes.ram

Lt. Commander Ennes - USS Liberty survivor
"Israeli reconnaissance pilots circled the ship 13 times in the hours before the attack."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/5a_ennes.ram

Ensign Lucas - USS Liberty survivor
"The US flag flew throughout the attack except for a few seconds when it was shot down by the Israelis and immediately replaced."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/8a_lucas.ram

Ensign Lucas - USS Liberty survivor
"Israeli torpedo boats continued to fire from close range for another 40 minutes and fired mercilessly on liferafts in the water."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/3f_ennes.ram

Captain Tully - USS Saratoga commander (near the USS Liberty when the Israelis launched Operation Shooting Gallery)
"I have never been told as to why my Strike Group, which was strong enough to drive-off all the Israeli forces attacking the USS Liberty, was recalled."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/3c_tully.ram

Yeoman Hrankowski - USS Liberty survivor
"American sailors who were running, trying to deploy liferafts - put flares in the water - the Israelis were picking them off, one-by-one, with their machine guns."
http://www.ussliberty.org/g/hrank.gif

Secretary of State Rusk - Kennedy foreign minister
"The decision to attack a known American ship was made at a high level in the Israeli government."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/deanrusk.ram

Signalman Joe Meadors - USS Liberty survivor
"The helicopters that Israel claims were sent for "rescue," actually carried armed men in battle dress."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/3ameadrs.ram

Vice-Admiral Thomas Moorer - U.S. Chief of Naval Operations (ex-)
"The idea of an accident is too much to swallow. The ship was deliberately attacked."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/moorer.ram

[john9blue]

best?

is this some kind of new teenage speak?

like where "bad" means "good" and "sick" means "sweet"?

[Phatscotty]

Which of these distinguished presidents do you think deserves to be remembered as the best?

Show working.

A poll with only the worst presidents in our history as options?

Stop hitting yourself!

[CreepersWiener]

Which of these distinguished presidents do you think deserves to be remembered as the best?

Show working.

A poll with only the worst presidents in our history as options?

Stop hitting yourself!

America's WORST President EVER!



Also, without "him", Americans would have never woke up and voted in THE BEST PRESIDENT IN HISTORY! OBAMA!

[Phatscotty]

Um, how can a president who's average unemployment was 5.4% (virtually full employment at 4%) be the worst in history?

[CreepersWiener]

Um, how can a president who's average unemployment was 5.4% (virtually full employment at 4%) be the worst in history?

Because he "f"ed it up...that's why.

[john9blue]

because everything is bush's fault

[GabonX]

Lt. Commander Ennes - USS Liberty survivor
"Israeli reconnaissance pilots were heard telling their headquarters that we were an American ship."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/4a_ennes.ram

Lt. Commander Ennes - USS Liberty survivor
"Israeli reconnaissance pilots circled the ship 13 times in the hours before the attack."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/5a_ennes.ram

Ensign Lucas - USS Liberty survivor
"The US flag flew throughout the attack except for a few seconds when it was shot down by the Israelis and immediately replaced."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/8a_lucas.ram

Ensign Lucas - USS Liberty survivor
"Israeli torpedo boats continued to fire from close range for another 40 minutes and fired mercilessly on liferafts in the water."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/3f_ennes.ram

Captain Tully - USS Saratoga commander (near the USS Liberty when the Israelis launched Operation Shooting Gallery)
"I have never been told as to why my Strike Group, which was strong enough to drive-off all the Israeli forces attacking the USS Liberty, was recalled."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/3c_tully.ram

Yeoman Hrankowski - USS Liberty survivor
"American sailors who were running, trying to deploy liferafts - put flares in the water - the Israelis were picking them off, one-by-one, with their machine guns."
http://www.ussliberty.org/g/hrank.gif

Secretary of State Rusk - Kennedy foreign minister
"The decision to attack a known American ship was made at a high level in the Israeli government."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/deanrusk.ram

Signalman Joe Meadors - USS Liberty survivor
"The helicopters that Israel claims were sent for "rescue," actually carried armed men in battle dress."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/3ameadrs.ram

Vice-Admiral Thomas Moorer - U.S. Chief of Naval Operations (ex-)
"The idea of an accident is too much to swallow. The ship was deliberately attacked."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/moorer.ram

Your source is not academic or credible. The first paragraph on the site establishes that the site has a conspiracy agenda. Ussliberty.org starts:

On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.


The Attack

After surveilling USS Liberty for more than nine hours with almost hourly aircraft overflights and radar tracking, the air and naval forces of Israel attacked our ship in international waters without warning. USS Liberty was identified as a US naval ship by Israeli reconnaissance aircraft nine hours before the attack and continuously tracked by Israeli radar and aircraft thereafter. Sailing in international waters at less than five knots, with no offensive armament, our ship was not a military threat to anyone.

The Israeli forces attacked without warning and without attempting to contact us. Thirty four Americans were killed in the attack and another 174 were wounded. The ship, a $40-million dollar state-of-the-art signals intelligence platform, was later declared unsalvageable and sold for scrap.

The Cover Up
Despite a near-universal consensus that the Israeli attack was made with full knowledge that USS Liberty was a US Navy ship, the Johnson administration began an immediate cover-up of this fact...

This is far from a neutral inquiry.

Despite the fact that none of the sound files are working with me, for our purposes I'll assume they say what you say they do. This does nothing to remedy the fact that there is no counter testimony presented.

Visual contact

During the morning of the attack, early June 8, the ship was overflown by Israeli Air Force (IAF) aircraft including a Nord Noratlas "flying boxcar" and Mirage III jet fighters eight times.[20][16] At least some of those flybys were from a close range.[21] Many Liberty crewmen gave testimony that one of the aircraft flew so close to Liberty that its propellers rattled the deck plating of the ship, and the pilots waved to the crew of Liberty, and the crewmen waved back.[22] The aircraft were hunting for Egyptian submarines, which had been spotted near the coast.[23] At about 5:45 a.m. Sinai time (GMT +2), reports were first received at Israeli Central Coastal Command (CCC) about the Liberty, identified by pilots as a destroyer and the vessel was placed on the plot board using a red marker, indicating an unknown vessel.

At 6:03 a.m. that morning, the Nord identified the ship as a U.S. supply ship, though the marker was only changed from the red 'unknown ship' to a green 'neutral ship' at 9 a.m., when CCC was ordered to do so after naval command inquired as to the marker's status. Also around 9 a.m. an Israeli pilot reported that a ship north of Arish had fired at his jet after he tried to identify the vessel, and naval command dispatched two destroyers to investigate. These destroyers returned to previous positions at 9:40 a.m. after doubts emerged during debriefing over the pilot's allegations of receiving fire. When the Nord landed and its naval observer was debriefed, the ship was further identified as the USS Liberty based on its "GTR-5" markings.[24] The ship was removed from CCC's plot board at 11 am, due to its positional information being considered stale.[25]

At 11:24 a.m., IDF General Staff Headquarters received the first of several reports that Arish on the Sinai coast was being shelled from the sea. Israeli troops in the city had seen a massive explosion and noticed two unidentified ships offshore. Though the explosion was probably the result of a burning ammunition dump, the Israelis were unaware of the fact, and both Israeli and Egyptian sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. Investigative journalist James Bamford points out that Liberty had only four .50 caliber machine guns mounted on her decks and, thus, could not have shelled the coast.[26]

Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin was concerned that the supposed Egyptian shelling was the prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank Israeli forces. Rabin reiterated the standing order to sink any unidentified ships in the area, but advised caution, as Soviet vessels were reportedly operating nearby. No fighter jets were available, and the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. Naval headquarters did not react to the request in any way, and more than half an hour later, the General Staff issued a rebuke: "The coast is being shelled and you have done nothing". At 20:05 p.m., naval command dispatched three torpedo boats to find and destroy the enemy warship thought to be shelling Arish.[23] The torpedo boats were T-203, T-204 and T-206, and were from the 914th Squadron, codenamed "Pagoda".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Libert ... al_contact

The fact that the ship had Latin markings led Chief of Staff Rabin to fear that the ship was Soviet. Though Egyptian warships were known to disguise their identities with Western markings, they usually displayed Arabic letters and numbers only. Rabin ordered the torpedo boats to remain at a safe distance from the ship, and sent in two Hornet helicopters to search for survivors. These radio communications were recorded by Israel. The order also was recorded in the torpedo boat's log, although Commodore Oren alleged not to have received it. The order to cease fire was given at 2:20 p.m., 24 minutes before the torpedo boats arrived at the Liberty's position.[38]

During the interval, crewmen aboard the Liberty hoisted a large American flag to be clearly identified, but the flag was obscured by the smoke. The ship's request for assistance reached the Sixth Fleet at this time, and the aircraft carrier USS America dispatched eight aircraft. The carrier had been in the middle of strategic exercises, and the aircraft were still armed with nuclear bombs when they took off. Vice-Admiral William I. Martin recalled the aircraft minutes later. Martin feared that the Liberty's attackers were Soviet, and did not want to risk starting a nuclear war.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Libert ... ea_attacks


In short, believing that Egyptian naval forces were shelling the coast, the IDF confused this boat:




with this one:


(Images on the left of the two top rows and third image row are the Egyptian vessel)

The disgusting thing here is that your focus on the incident isn't out of remorse for the American lives lost. Quite the opposite you're highly critical of the American military, but you bring this up like propaganda as you see it as an opportunity to turn opinion against Israel by telling half truths and lying outright.

The USS Liberty incident was tragic, but there was no motive for Israel to have purposefully attacked an American vessel. Things sometimes happen in the fog of war which are unintended, and the United States itself is no stranger to this.If you weren't a self avowed Western hating socialist I'd say you should be ashamed of yourself for exploiting the deaths American servicemen to further your agenda, but considering what you are I'd say you're doing a half decent job of employing soviet era propaganda techniques.

It's actually kind of entertaining to watch and without a voice to combat it you might actually be able to sway some rather stupid people who are drawn in by your seeming authority. Presented with a rational counter argument however, aka reality, all of your false pretenses crumble.

[saxitoxin]

I'm sorry you don't consider first person testimony of wounded American veterans to be credible witnesses of the event that caused their injuries, but consider Wikipedia contributor HoneyTiger84 an academic and believable source.

They sacrificed for your right to denounce them as liars.

If Mossad asked you to plant a suitcase nuke in the Rose Bowl on New Year's Day, would you ask why and then do it, or just do it? (I assume 'I wouldn't do it at all' isn't an option on the table.)

[GabonX]

I'm sorry you don't consider first person testimony of wounded American veterans to be credible witnesses of the event that caused their injuries, but consider Wikipedia contributor HoneyTiger84 an academic and believable source.

They sacrificed for your right to denounce them as liars.

I'm not sure that what you posted is testimony of American veterans. Even if it is, it doesn't change the fact that the relevant side to consider is the Israeli's as it's their intent that's being considered.

[Metsfanmax]

I'm sorry you don't consider first person testimony of wounded American veterans to be credible witnesses of the event that caused their injuries, but consider Wikipedia contributor HoneyTiger84 an academic and believable source.

Actually, the principal editor of this article seems to be user Kjhalliwell, who operates his own Google page on the USS Liberty:

https://sites.google.com/site/usslibertyinquiry/

[Phatscotty]

Perhaps tis best to leave the poll making to me.

You can't deny that the Zimmerman and the Obamacare polls are the most fair and honest of all time

[saxitoxin]

it doesn't change the fact that the relevant side to consider is the Israeli's as it's their intent that's being considered

LMAO - "Al Capone was a plumber because he said so; obviously he knows what profession he was doing better than anything else."

I'm sorry you don't consider first person testimony of wounded American veterans to be credible witnesses of the event that caused their injuries, but consider Wikipedia contributor HoneyTiger84 an academic and believable source.

Actually, the principal editor of this article seems to be user Kjhalliwell, who operates his own Google page on the USS Liberty:

https://sites.google.com/site/usslibertyinquiry/

That's a good find ... from looking at his Talk Page, it seems like he's a typical Hasbara Troll.

[GabonX]

Your conspiracy theory website's assertion that Israel purposefully attacked a US vessel, (we have to assume for shits and giggles because no explanation is offered), doesn't hold up when the preponderance of evidence to the contrary is considered. As tragic as what happened to them was, the testimony of US servicemen is not more credible than the people who admitted to, carried out, and apologized for the attacks.

Again, I find it particularly distasteful that you dwell on this not out of compassion for US troops, but rather because you're willing to exploit American deaths to encourage hatred of Israel.

[saxitoxin]

the testimony of US servicemen is not more credible than the people who admitted to, carried out, and apologized for the attacks

Like I said, they were machine-gunned in the water by laughing Israelis for your right to denounce them as liars, lunatics and malcontents.

[saxitoxin]

A Q&A on the episode in 1967 where IDF troops, giggling, butchered 34 American sailors as they begged for their lives:

http://www.councilforthenationalinteres ... ussliberty

The conspiracy theory website hosting the Q&A is the website of the Council for the National Interest whose Board of Directors is as follows:

- former Congressman Paul Findley (Republican - Illinois)
- former Congressman Col. Peter McCloskey (Republican - California); recipient of the Silver Star, Navy Cross & 2 Purple Hearts
- former Senator James Abourzek (Democrat - South Dakota)
- Dr. Edward Peck (former Deputy Director of Covert Intelligence Programs, U.S. State Department)
- Dr. Robert Keeley (former U.S. Ambassador to Greece)
- Dr. Phil Giraldi (former CIA Station Chief - Barcelona; national security correspondent for American Conservative Magazine)

I know it doesn't hold a candle to the somber, academic inquiry of HoneyTiger84, WikiMom2Boys and Freakzilla74 over at Wikipedia, but it's the best I could do.

[GabonX]

the testimony of US servicemen is not more credible than the people who admitted to, carried out, and apologized for the attacks

Like I said, they were machine-gunned in the water by laughing Israelis for your right to denounce them as liars and malcontents.

I don't think that they're liars. I think some of them may from PTSD but I don't think they're what you said. Your lack of acknowledgment that victims of a sustained military attack may have emotions which cloud their judgement is either an example of extreme stupidity or intellectual dishonesty.


Let me break this down for you guys just in case anyone doesn't follow...

Party A does something to Party B. Who is more qualified to explain why Party A did the thing, the people that did it or the people that it was done to? If the thing that was done hurt Party B, might this make them less rational in considering what happened?


As for whether this is an example of stupidity or dishonesty, I believe it's the latter. Riddle me this Saxi, if Israel had attacked the USS Liberty on purpose why would they have admitted to doing it?

[saxitoxin]

Riddle me this Saxi, if Israel had attacked the USS Liberty on purpose why would they have admitted to doing it?

Israel didn't admit to attacking the USS Liberty on purpose.

That was easy. Any more?

(I think you're probably better off just quoting Bible prophecy that ABC magic creature promised XYZ person a mystical destiny during an Ouija board game, like the rest of the pro-Israel crowd does. The 'hard facts' angle never really has worked too great for the Israeli chorus.)