Is Juan a liberal?

[GabonX]

Juan, you can't preach tax cuts instead of stimulus, worship Peter Schiff, and be absolutely opposed to the bailouts and claim to be a liberal.

Actually you can. Obama ran on a platfom of tax cuts and the first bailouts were instituted under Bush so the things you've mentioned really don't have anything to do with being liberal or conservative at all. You can't be an Obama drone and hold the positions you mentioned but Liberal is not synonymous with allowing Obama to do your thinking for you. Which based on this post it looks like you do..

Fallacy fallacy fallacy. Oh, did I mention fallacy?

OK. You aren't supposed to actually say fallacy when you think you see one. Rather you're supposed to demonstrate what's wrong with a statement.

You can't start from the conclusion that Obama is a liberal, and then say that all of his policies must then be liberal, nor can you say the same about conservatism and Bush. Not to mention that's unbelievably simplistic logic.

I'm not sure what to say here accept that I didn't in any way do what you said I did..

Nor can you say all liberals are "Obama drones" - honestly, for that comment I really shouldn't even bother responding.

Basically I said the exact opposite of everything you claimed I said and I've taken the liberty of bolding/underlining those segments. What I see you doing is stating a number of Obama's positions, which have nothing to do with being liberal or conservative, and claiming that because someone does not support them that they cannot be of one political persuasion and therefore must be the other. Tax cuts are not anti liberal by default. Being against the bail out is not necesairly a conservative position either. What I see you doing is taking Obama's side on every issue and claiming that anyone who disagrees with him about anything is a conservative.

Next time you want to cry "fallacy fallacy fallacy" make sure to read the post you're talking about.

[GabonX]

It just occurred to me that you're post has about three straw man arguments

[InkL0sed]

Juan, you can't preach tax cuts instead of stimulus, worship Peter Schiff, and be absolutely opposed to the bailouts and claim to be a liberal.

Actually you can. Obama ran on a platfom of tax cuts and the first bailouts were instituted under Bush so the things you've mentioned really don't have anything to do with being liberal or conservative at all. You can't be an Obama drone and hold the positions you mentioned but Liberal is not synonymous with allowing Obama to do your thinking for you. Which based on this post it looks like you do..

Fallacy fallacy fallacy. Oh, did I mention fallacy?

OK. You aren't supposed to actually say fallacy when you think you see one. Rather you're supposed to demonstrate what's wrong with a statement.

Right, which is what I kind of proceed to do.

Straw man

You can't start from the conclusion that Obama is a liberal, and then say that all of his policies must then be liberal, nor can you say the same about conservatism and Bush. Not to mention that's unbelievably simplistic logic.

I'm not sure what to say here accept that I didn't in any way do what you said I did..

Nor can you say all liberals are "Obama drones" - honestly, for that comment I really shouldn't even bother responding.

Basically I said the exact opposite of everything you claimed I said and I've taken the liberty of bolding/underlining those segments. What I see you doing is stating a number of Obama's positions, which have nothing to do with being liberal or conservative, and claiming that because someone does not support them that they cannot be of one political persuasion and therefore must be the other. Tax cuts are not anti liberal by default. Being against the bail out is not necesairly a conservative position either. What I see you doing is taking Obama's side on every issue and claiming that anyone who disagrees with him about anything is a conservative.

Next time you want to cry "fallacy fallacy fallacy" make sure to read the post you're talking about.

You were the first person in this thread to mention Obama. Obama is a Democrat, which is not synonymous with liberal.

So yeah, basically you're either making a bunch of invalid arguments (trying to use Obama to define a liberal) and making things up about me (ie, I always agree with Obama).

No wonder I gave up on this thread.

[HapSmo19]

You left off 16.

lib⋅er⋅al   /ˈlɪbərəl, ˈlɪbrəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [lib-er-uhl, lib-ruhl] Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
....
....
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16. a gay communist whiner

[GabonX]

Inklosed, you did go on to talk about my post but everything you said was wrong. Several of the things you said that I said were the exact opposite of what I wrote. On top of that I don't think that screaming FALLACY really accomplishes anything even if you go on to identify what it is that you think is a fallacy.

What I saw happening here was you claiming Juan wasn't a liberal, when as near as I can tell he is in virtually every respect, largely because he didn't agree with two of Obama's policies, not enacting tax cuts and the stimulus package.

Obama promised to give tax cuts to voters who made under $250,000 a year. Tax cuts are not strictly a left or a right concept because people on both sides of the political spectrum can be for them.

The stimulus package is a very specific issue and while the Democratic party pushed it through Congress it can hardly be considered a defining issue of the liberal cause. Rather it is a highly specific issue that people on both sides of the political spectrum have varrying opinions on.

I found your attempt to categorize Juan based on these issues, like most personal attacks here, to be counter productive. I like having debates based on merrit but this idea that someone can be categorized as conservative or un-liberal because they don't support the above mentioned policies (which are seemingly the policies Obama has tried hardest to push through since taking office) reaks of a kind of pseudo McCarthyism. You could also call it (I believe) an ad hominum attack.

The title as well as the first post of this thread are not constructive political discussions but are rather attempts to demonize (black list) a certain member of the forums.

[InkL0sed]

Interesting.

About the fallacy thing - I was frustrated when I made that post, which is why I took that tone. But I think it's interesting that your main "argument" regarding that is basically on a matter of style, and not substance. What's the use in taking issue with how I make my argument? I could say "look, you've made a few typos in your post, making your points invalid", but that would be totally irrelevant.

Both you and Juan seem to think my assertion that he isn't liberal is an attempt to "blacklist" him. No, it's simply an attempt to call an apple an apple and an orange an orange. You claim to be nonpartisan, and yet you automatically assume that just because I'm liberal and I'm saying Juan isn't liberal, that that means I must hate him or something. This was never an ad hominum, because I wasn't attempting to insult Juan. I was being facetious, yes. But I just find it frustrating when I see him call himself a liberal. I'd be just as frustrated if Rush Limbaugh or Ron Paul or some anarchist regularly called themselves liberal.

Your entire argument is based off of one post which was an incredible oversimplification of what I think. No, I don't think tax cuts are necessarily unliberal, nor do I think you have to support the stimulus bill to be a liberal, though that one is cutting it close. I say that because the core beliefs of liberalism generally are that the government should be hands off when it comes to social policy (ie, marriage, abortion, drug laws etc), but should have a more active role in the economy. And I don't see how you could ever be for government activism in the economy if not now. I've seen Juan stoutly argue against stimulus in other threads, which no true liberal would do. Not against the bill itself - the idea of stimulus. No, it's not because Obama proposed the stimulus bill. Again, you keep bringing up Obama. I'm starting to think you're the one that's a little obsessed with him.

I still think this

Obama promised to give tax cuts to voters who made under $250,000 a year. Tax cuts are not strictly a left or a right concept because people on both sides of the political spectrum can be for them.

is a fallacy. Yes, Obama is pretty much always on the left, but the only reason why he's giving any tax cuts at all are because they were a campaign promise. And most considered that promise to be a move to the center, to gain more independent voters. Just because Obama is liberal doesn't make all of his opinions liberal.