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Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby Pedronicus on Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:19 am

Wednesday, 16 June 2010
Spanish Bail Out and the propaganda machine

We are rapidly approaching another massive bail-out. This time of Spain.

Of course it will not be called a bail-out. That is now too contentious a term. It will be called something technical and reasonable, like, a 'European borrowing facility'. It's officially stated purpose will be , 'to facilitate and provide reasonable borrowing terms to EU member states when private debt markets cannot be accessed'. Something like that.

But make no mistake it is another bail-out of gargantuan proportions.

Two signs tell us this is being prepared. First an IMF mission arrived in Madrid to 'work closely' with the Spanish Government, to assess its austerity plans and 'recommend' tougher ones if the IMF and the EU deem it necessary. Necessary to achieve what for whose benefit, is not alluded to. The IMF doesn't make house calls to pass the time of day. It arrives early to show you the instruments of torture and so you can think about how wise it would be to confess quickly.

The second tell-tale sign is the propaganda machine getting into a higher gear. John Monks, former General Secretary of the TUC and now General Secretary of the European TUC (ETUC), was this week treated to a briefing by the President of the EU Commission, Mr Barroso.

Now for those who aren't familiar with Mr Barosso he is firmly on the side of Free-markets, liberalization of markets in poor countries, did nothing to regulate banks either in the run-up to nor during, the present financial implosion, despite his own experts warning him about financial risks, and has been more than happy to comply with/cover-up using Europe for US Rendition flights. In short he's a peach of a man with high moral standards, a sharp and brave, forward thinker who has a deep sense of looking out for the interests of the ordinary citizen over the interests of the monied class. He also would never be swayed by a foreign power to do their bidding over the interests of Europe. Never.

So what did he say to Mr Monks? Well the Daily Mail was on hand to let us know. I don't know who was the mouth-piece in other countries. The Daily Mail is the orifice for disseminating petty moral outrage at ..well everything, the bastion of little Englanders and a shallow short of consumerist, materialist 'I don't know much about it, but I know what I like' view, of what it means to be alive. I think that's fair don't you?

Anyway the Daily Mail was on hand to let us all know that Mr Barosso said that unless the full austerity cuts were implemented in every country where they are needed, without let or hindrance from unions, then we would see a domino effect of countries running out of money and falling prey to military coups and/or - horror of horrors - popular uprisings. The end of democracy and decency and a new dark age. And people would be eating each other's children and the black plague would return and...no actually he didn't say those last things but he will if he thinks it necessary to get you to be afraid enough to comply with everything he thinks must be done.

This is a direct re-run of the build up to passing TARP in the US. Think back to US Treasury Secretary Paulson saying TARP was necessary to "stave off economic Armageddon." Both Paulson and Bernanke were explicit in telling a reluctant congress that the bail-out had to happen without discussion or oversight or people would be put out of their hoses in the hundreds of thousands, all the banks would collapse, the ATM system would stop working and their would be civil disorder. It was passed.

Then we were told how this bail out would fix everything and were then treated to green shoots and recovery. And such has been the recovery that here we are again.

Only this time, the financial world will tell us, its not banks who are in trouble it's irresponsible nations. Who if they are not bailed out with public, ECB money will fail and Mr Paulson's threats - sorry, warnings can be dusted off and waved at the public again.

Look a little deeper. Would Greeks go hungry? Well actually no they would not. Well surely they would not be able to access the bond markets ever again? Well actually Argentinian defaulted and is rehabilitated. But this isn't the issue. If we are contemplating bailing out a broken and dysfunctional financial system and the banks who own it, why not save the cash and use it to lend to Greece after said system is taken to the abattoir and slaughtered? Greece would not need to go to the bond markets. This is a plan that would work. How can I know? Well mainly because it is not that different to what the IMF and Mr Barosso want to see happen. With one important difference. I would put this money into a CLEAN system that had been cleared of its rotting bad debts. They want to put this money into the same failed system that has already eaten and shot back out two or three previous bail-outs. And will shit this one back in our faces if we let it.

Why is the IMF, Mr Barosso and all our financial experts so sure that we must put this money into the present banking system? Well it could be because if we don't and instead let Greece and Spain flush their debt poison out, then Germany would have to bail-out at least one of its largest banks and several of its Landesbanks. France would have top bail out Credit Agricole and possibly Soc Gen. If Spain defaulted as well as Greece, many more banks would implode and would probably be beyond any help.

End of the world? Not quite. Certainly end of the world for those who lent money to the banks that collapse - the bond holders. They would be bankrupt along with the banks whose worthless bonds they would be holding. Would other banks survive? Well, yes they would.

In Greece most banks would be toast. They would be sold for a song. In Spain the Caja's would burn down. That would take out the wealth of a narrow strata of Spanish society. Would Spain and the average Spaniard lament their demise? I don't know. But I suspect Spain and Spanish society might manage without them. And might not descend into barbarism without them. Most of the regionally powerful families would be ruined. Spain's two big banks might survive.

Now here's a thought for you. The pro-bail-out cheering machine is talking about a €700 billion Euro fund at least. This money would be used to buy all the Greek banks bad debts and their nation's worthless bonds as well. It would also fund Spanish banks going forward. Let's step outside the officially sanctioned one-way logic for a moment. Imagine we let the banks die and watch as they took with them all their bad debts. No rescheduling, no saving the bond holders. Their money is used to pay off the debts until the debts are paid or the money runs out. Either suits me fine.

Then once the stench clears a little we take that 700 billion Euros and use a little of it to recapitalize a few new, debt free banks. We could ask the Chinese if they would like to invest in something in Europe that isn't riddled with debt. The rest we take and begin to invest in productive industries.

We are contemplating spending 700 billion Euros, why stick with the belief that the ONLY thing we can do with it is invest it in bankrupt and dysfunctional banks? Why not invest that money in something that works? Something that might employ people to make or do something that will actually have a future?

At the moment we are being told and will soon be bullied not told, that the only thing we can invest in is banks. And we are being told this by the people who own the banks, who lent the banks their money and the political class who are often the same people or hoping to get a plush sinecure form them upon being voted out of office. WHY BELIEVE ANY OF THEM?

They have no reason to tell you the truth and million and billions of selfish reasons to lie to you.

Instead of being bullied by those who are massively in debt and facing certain ruin, we should be focussing clearly on the real question - what do we want to invest vast sums of public money in? Bankrupt banks and a corrupt political elite who serve them, OR something productive?

Think clearly now before the din of propaganda lies and bullying gets too loud to hear yourself think.
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby 2dimes on Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:09 am

Fruitcake wrote:Two German MPs are now saying the Greeks should sell an island or two...Frank Schaeffler, an economics specialist and member of Germany's Free Democrats, said Athens should sell stakes in companies and "assets, such as uninhabited islands". Marco Wanderwitz – a member of Merkel's conservative CDU party – went even further: "If the European Union, and therefore Germany, helps out Greece economically, it will need to give something in exchange … some islands, for example, might be a solution.''


Now we're getting somewhere. I fear this is not the sweet deal on mediteranian property I'm looking for just yet.
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby Fruitcake on Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:08 pm

I see the haircut (mentioned by me on June 15th originally) given to banks holding Greek bonds has now risen to between 15% and 20%.

I wait with baited breath for the so called stress tests results that are due 23rd July. It is not without a little amusement I see they are going to be published in London. Private investors are way ahead of the herd (more commonly known as Euro Banks) and are pricing in a 50% haircut on longer dated Greek Bonds. The number for Spanish long dated bonds is 30%. It is not rocket science to work out that as these bonds are widely held by all Euroland banks a haircut of this size would leave few of them looking solvent if the correct stress test was applied. Reports are that the ECB is not buying Spanish Corporate bonds now.

Germany, the mighty centre of the moolah is starting to suffer as private investors start to review the exposure the German Banks have to euroland Bonds, reports are that even a 3% haircut on sovereign debt would leave German banks with around €47 bn of losses.

Autumn is just over the horizon....and all the trouble brewing will spill over then.
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:41 pm

Fruitcake wrote:I see the haircut (mentioned by me on June 15th originally) given to banks holding Greek bonds has now risen to between 15% and 20%.

I wait with baited breath for the so called stress tests results that are due 23rd July. It is not without a little amusement I see they are going to be published in London. Private investors are way ahead of the herd (more commonly known as Euro Banks) and are pricing in a 50% haircut on longer dated Greek Bonds. The number for Spanish long dated bonds is 30%. It is not rocket science to work out that as these bonds are widely held by all Euroland banks a haircut of this size would leave few of them looking solvent if the correct stress test was applied. Reports are that the ECB is not buying Spanish Corporate bonds now.

Germany, the mighty centre of the moolah is starting to suffer as private investors start to review the exposure the German Banks have to euroland Bonds, reports are that even a 3% haircut on sovereign debt would leave German banks with around €47 bn of losses.

Autumn is just over the horizon....and all the trouble brewing will spill over then.


The stress tests here in the US was a pony show, and a tool to bust out non-cooperative banks, especially local/community banks. We are approaching 90 bank failures so far this year, right on track with depression statistics from the FDR days
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby jimboston on Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:45 pm

I know a collapsed Euro will hurt US exports... but I want to go to Paris again, and I need a better exchange rate to justify the trip.

Plus... in addition to the exchange rate, if they are feeling a little more exconomic distress the cost for hotels, airfare, ect. will all be depressed as well.
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby Fruitcake on Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:12 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Fruitcake wrote:I see the haircut (mentioned by me on June 15th originally) given to banks holding Greek bonds has now risen to between 15% and 20%.

I wait with baited breath for the so called stress tests results that are due 23rd July. It is not without a little amusement I see they are going to be published in London. Private investors are way ahead of the herd (more commonly known as Euro Banks) and are pricing in a 50% haircut on longer dated Greek Bonds. The number for Spanish long dated bonds is 30%. It is not rocket science to work out that as these bonds are widely held by all Euroland banks a haircut of this size would leave few of them looking solvent if the correct stress test was applied. Reports are that the ECB is not buying Spanish Corporate bonds now.

Germany, the mighty centre of the moolah is starting to suffer as private investors start to review the exposure the German Banks have to euroland Bonds, reports are that even a 3% haircut on sovereign debt would leave German banks with around €47 bn of losses.

Autumn is just over the horizon....and all the trouble brewing will spill over then.


The stress tests here in the US was a pony show, and a tool to bust out non-cooperative banks, especially local/community banks. We are approaching 90 bank failures so far this year, right on track with depression statistics from the FDR days


And this after some 140 failures in 2009.

Wonder what the spread is on Fannie and Freddie being:
1) Broken up
2) dissolved entirely
3) allowed to keep swallowing huge amounts of moolah (around $145 billion and counting since collapse in September 2008)

Back in the never-never land of the Euro, on Thursday Greek workers went on strike against government plans to raise the pension age and reduce benefits as demanded by the EU/IMF package. Despite it being the start of the high season for tourism, 20% of Greek GDP, the strikers shut airports, railways and ferries....

Another Greek air traffic controllers strike is set for Wednesday, 14, July, 2010, for 24 hours. Added to this, another general strike is called for 15, July, starting 11am till the end of time!
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby Fruitcake on Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:19 am

According to the latest data from Lipper FMI, both equity and money market funds saw redemptions this month, with money market funds alone responsible for redemptions of €14.7bn over the month, despite them normally being seen as a safe haven during more a turbulent market environment.

The redemptions in money market funds recorded by Lipper (a Thomson Reuters company, global leader in supplying mutual fund information and fund ratings, fund analytical tools and fund commentary) are in stark contrast to the global figures provided by EPFR Global for the first week in July which show an inflow of $33.5bn – a 78 week high for the money market sector, indicating perhaps a marked improvement in investor confidence since May.

The only major asset classes unaffected by the exodus were the mixed asset and bond categories, although both saw their net inflows drop to the lowest points since this time last year (bond +€5.6bn, mixed +€3.4bn).

In addition, investor reaction to the potential vulnerability of some regions was evident – European bond funds were redeemed heavily, with the European short-term bond sector seeing net redemptions of €2.3bn while emerging market bond sales also slowed on less positive regional news but still took €357m.

Overall the best selling sector for the month was German equities, with net sales of €6.5bn, despite the DAX falling by 2.8% during May. The top five funds in this sector were ETFs, possibly suggesting savvy investors buying when down, but also some short-selling distortions. The best seller was iShares DAX with inflows of €4bn, beating its homegrown competitor ETFLab DAX by €2.2bn.

Reported in the FT today was the debacle of yesterday's Greek bond issue. Scaling back from 12 months to 6 (term) and approximately halving the quantity (due to no real takers) they just managed to offload the 50% reduced issue,but that's not the end of the story. Even at just 6 months maturity the Greeks are now paying 4.55% up from 1.38% in January. They would have liked to issue at 12 months but were not prepared to pay the rate the market would demand. 10 year bonds are yielding around 10.5% now, slightly down following some interestingly helpful long term bond purchases. Problem is that tax revenues are heading south big time as the EU/IMF fiscal reforms take hold.

The bond terms are getting shorter, the rates higher....and the end game wont be far away. One can almost see the ever decreasing circles as the EU tries, vainly, to keep the Euro intact as it is....ha!
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby 2dimes on Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:32 am

Semi serious question. Are you setting things up on your island?

I would have liked to set up an island while things were peachy. Doesn't it look like you might need it in a couple of years?
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby Fruitcake on Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:41 am

2dimes wrote:Semi serious question. Are you setting things up on your island?

I would have liked to set up an island while things were peachy. Doesn't it look like you might need it in a couple of years?


Still at the same point dimes. I am working so hard these days I have little time to progress any other project.

As for needing it in a couple of years, I think not, there is still far too much money to be made and assets amassed from the assinine stupidity of Euroland politicians.
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby 2dimes on Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:00 am

There will allways be money to be made. I was thinking more about hiding from the hungry people trying to climb in the window to check out your pantry between riots.
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby Fruitcake on Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:05 pm

Fruitcake wrote:.....stuff.....from July 13th

Reported in the FT today was the debacle of yesterday's Greek bond issue. Scaling back from 12 months to 6 (term) and approximately halving the quantity (due to no real takers) they just managed to offload the 50% reduced issue,but that's not the end of the story. Even at just 6 months maturity the Greeks are now paying 4.55% up from 1.38% in January. They would have liked to issue at 12 months but were not prepared to pay the rate the market would demand. 10 year bonds are yielding around 10.5% now, slightly down following some interestingly helpful long term bond purchases. Problem is that tax revenues are heading south big time as the EU/IMF fiscal reforms take hold.

The bond terms are getting shorter, the rates higher....and the end game wont be far away. One can almost see the ever decreasing circles as the EU tries, vainly, to keep the Euro intact as it is....ha!


Greek rates are now 11.6%
...just putting it out there....oh, and the Med silly season is in full swing right now, so cash is still rolling in....as the Autumn creeps in after next month, the fun should start.
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:45 pm

Fruitcake wrote:
Fruitcake wrote:.....stuff.....from July 13th

Reported in the FT today was the debacle of yesterday's Greek bond issue. Scaling back from 12 months to 6 (term) and approximately halving the quantity (due to no real takers) they just managed to offload the 50% reduced issue,but that's not the end of the story. Even at just 6 months maturity the Greeks are now paying 4.55% up from 1.38% in January. They would have liked to issue at 12 months but were not prepared to pay the rate the market would demand. 10 year bonds are yielding around 10.5% now, slightly down following some interestingly helpful long term bond purchases. Problem is that tax revenues are heading south big time as the EU/IMF fiscal reforms take hold.

The bond terms are getting shorter, the rates higher....and the end game wont be far away. One can almost see the ever decreasing circles as the EU tries, vainly, to keep the Euro intact as it is....ha!


Greek rates are now 11.6%
...just putting it out there....oh, and the Med silly season is in full swing right now, so cash is still rolling in....as the Autumn creeps in after next month, the fun should start.


What is your opinion on if and when the US interest rate hits 11.5%?
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby Fruitcake on Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:50 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Fruitcake wrote:
Fruitcake wrote:.....stuff.....from July 13th

Reported in the FT today was the debacle of yesterday's Greek bond issue. Scaling back from 12 months to 6 (term) and approximately halving the quantity (due to no real takers) they just managed to offload the 50% reduced issue,but that's not the end of the story. Even at just 6 months maturity the Greeks are now paying 4.55% up from 1.38% in January. They would have liked to issue at 12 months but were not prepared to pay the rate the market would demand. 10 year bonds are yielding around 10.5% now, slightly down following some interestingly helpful long term bond purchases. Problem is that tax revenues are heading south big time as the EU/IMF fiscal reforms take hold.

The bond terms are getting shorter, the rates higher....and the end game wont be far away. One can almost see the ever decreasing circles as the EU tries, vainly, to keep the Euro intact as it is....ha!


Greek rates are now 11.6%
...just putting it out there....oh, and the Med silly season is in full swing right now, so cash is still rolling in....as the Autumn creeps in after next month, the fun should start.


What is your opinion on if and when the US interest rate hits 11.5%?


Well actually I am talking bond yields rather than bank rates. The yields for a selection of 10 year Soveriegn Euro Bonds and others being issued and more likely traded right now (as I type, so may move slightly by close of UK business) are:

Japan 1.09%
Germany: 2.76%
US 3.01%
France 3.04%
UK 3.47%
China 3.54%
Italy 4.02%
Spain 4.53%
Australia 5.27%
Ireland 5.43%
Portugal 5.55%
Greece: 11.5%
Pakistan 12.13%

In effect, and it is important to get this. If a Govt (for this example Greece) Issues a bond at 3% for every €100 then the investors will mark that price down to around €26 to return 11.5% real. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that this means the Greek Govt has to issue at ever higher rates to get as close to the €100 it needs, so in reality, the Greeks give up trying to issue at anything near 3% as they know there will be no takers at that price and effectively have to issue at 11.5% to raise any kind of capital.

The problem being that this, in turn, creates a vicious spiral into which countries are sucked paying out ever increasing % as the interest payments bite and they have to issue new bonds to help pay for the country infrastructure and the interest now due to Banks and investors worldwide.

Ultimately, the Government throws up it's hands and begs for help (which is what the Greeks have done) and the IMF and EuroBank have to stump up ultra low interest loans to help them otherwise there will be a country sliding into anarchy. The other side of this coin being that in doing so, they install sets of rules regarding fiscal prudence which often bring about very much the same scenario.

Historically, the Med countries in particular have let the value of their currencies fall, which offsets the high rate of interest (borrow €100 today at 1 Drachma parity and pay it back in 10 years at 10 Drachmas to the Euro and you have effectively shot away 90% of your debt...crazy example but you get the picture) Unfortunately, being part of the Euro means they cannot shed their debt by devaluation as this will impact the Germans et al. So we see a steady squeeze getting tighter and tighter.

Hope that clarifies.

(Edit. When I posted this I made the fatal error of not checking. I now see I posted Brazil instead of Pakistan. Apologies to any Brazilians that went into shock at seeing their sovereign debt ratios and rates as looking the worst, in fact, poor Pakistan holds that position presently. Brazil is, in fact, running at around 4.29, see my next post.)
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby Fruitcake on Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:20 am

10 year Sovereign Bond yields as at London close yesterday 27th July.

Japan 1.08
Switzerland 1.44
Singapore 2.27
Hong Kong 2.31
Germany 2.61
Denmark 2.70
Sweden 2.72
Finland 2.89
Netherlands 2.91
Austria 2.97
United States 2.99
France 3.00
Canada 3.23
China 3.24
United Kingdom 3.33
Norway 3.34
Belgium 3.36
Thailand 3.44
Malaysia 3.90
Czech Republic 4.01
Italy 4.02
Brazil 4.29
Spain 4.36
Israel 4.59
South Korea 4.90
Russia 5.00
Australia 5.20
New Zealand 5.40
Ireland 5.43
Portugal 5.55
Peru 5.85
Poland 5.87
Mexico 6.56
Hungary 7.40
India 7.68
Indonesia 8.28
South Africa 8.59
Greece 11.38
Pakistan 12.94
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Re: Greece to Collapse Monday Afternoon

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:48 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Breaking Update: Germany Just Agreed to Lend to Greece at 5% instead of 22%

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-0 ... ate1-.html

Good News: Greece Will Survive

Bad News: Germany is Now in a Suicide Pact with Greece; if this doesn't work out both Greece and Germany will collapse into anarchy

The meetings are over,
The treaties suspended,
The armies start marching,
The EU is ended.


But... but... if it's a suicide pact and Greece will survive, doesn't that mean that just Germany will die?


grownups would like to have a chit-chat, Sym

perhaps you could try this thread instead?

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=110182

Thanks, Symmetry!
- Saxi!


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