Gay Adoption

[2dimes]

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

Ok then. My kids are in big trouble. My wife works and I stay home to make breakfast bring the little guy home for lunch. Then make supper for everyone. SometimesI clean the house when nobody is looking. I do mow the lawn but...

[Phatscotty]

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

Ok then. My kids are in big trouble. My wife works and I stay home to make breakfast bring the little guy home for lunch. Then make supper for everyone. SometimesI clean the house when nobody is looking. I do mow the lawn but...

And if you had a daughter, and she got her first period, which parent would be best qualified to handle the issue? How about your sons first boner?

[Haggis_McMutton]

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

Ok then. My kids are in big trouble. My wife works and I stay home to make breakfast bring the little guy home for lunch. Then make supper for everyone. SometimesI clean the house when nobody is looking. I do mow the lawn but...

And if you had a daughter, and she got her first period, which parent would be best qualified to handle the issue? How about your sons first boner?

And these, ladies and gentlemen, are the issues that should take precedence over two people's right to get married and over a child's right to have a loving family.

Don't have daddy to explain to you what a boner is? Well, guess you're better off in the foster homes. Or are there currently absolutely no children up for adoption?

How in god's name can you come here every day and post hundreds of posts in support of both minimizing government and legalizing morality? It's seriously impressive you don't find those two positions contradictory.

Also, I'll just leave this study here.

[saxitoxin]

How about your sons first boner?

I remember, as a young kinder growing up in Gstaad, our night governess Fraulein Zelda would burst into my room every twenty minutes or so and loudly exclaim in her thick Swiss accent, "BONER CHECK!" then grab my brother Rolf's crotch and my own.

It wasn't until I was 16 that I learned from our horrified day governess Fraulein Maxie that we didn't have a night governess. The locksmith was called in the next day.

Something like that ever happen to others?

[Neoteny]

Yes, but I had to pay for such treatment.

[nagerous]

How about your sons first boner?

I remember, as a young kinder growing up in Gstaad, our night governess Fraulein Zelda would burst into my room every twenty minutes or so and loudly exclaim in her thick Swiss accent, "BONER CHECK!" then grab my brother Rolf's crotch and my own.

It wasn't until I was 16 that I learned from our horrified day governess Fraulein Maxie that we didn't have a night governess. The locksmith was called in the next day.

Something like that ever happen to others?

Yes.

[Woodruff]

Can you agree that a mother can offer a child something that no 2 fathers can offer, and a father can offer a child something no 2 mothers can?

But that's not the alternative, Phatscotty...that's a false choice. We're talking about kids who aren't being adopted. So the choice that you're trying to avoid here is the choice between no parents at all and either 2 mothers or 2 fathers. That is the reality here.

#2 Can you agree that adopting a child into a family with a mother and a father is much more preferable than into a family that has no mother or no father?

Again, that's not the alternative we're dealing with. We're talking about kids who aren't being adopted.

hmmm, that looks like a dodge to me

I'm sorry that you believe that dealing in realities is less important than dealing in loaded hypotheticals. I'm not surprised...I'm just sorry for you, hypocrite.

The reality is making the healthy decision to give children to families with a mother and a father, and nothing else.

That's only a reality in the world of the bigot.

[Woodruff]

#1 Can you agree that a mother can offer a child something that no 2 fathers can offer, and a father can offer a child something no 2 mothers can?
#2 Can you agree that adopting a child into a family with a mother and a father is much more preferable than into a family that has no mother or no father?

#1 Yes, but only in a vacuum; 2 fathers/2 mothers can cover every aspect of good parenting if they use all the resources available to them (that is they are good parents)
#2 No. The only thing that should be being evaluated in adoption cases is how good the potential parents are; this single aspect dwarfs anything else involved

I assume you are talking about the role models argument (that seems to be where you are heading). You know parents can work within their community to find more than adequate role models right?

Also: What type of organisation is employing you in your new role?

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

So in the heterosexual parenting scheme, you'd favor the wife who sleeps around on an abusive husband as a set of parents (showing their kids how to be a man and women, no less!) than to a set of homosexuals who would give them a loving home?

[Woodruff]

I disagree with PLAYER all the time. It's a very frequent occurrence. I disagree with pimpdave all the time...that one is pretty much a constant. I disagree with natty_dread quite consistently. I disagreed with Sultan of Surreal all the time when he was here. If you believe I almost exclusively criticize our conservative posters, then you quite simply are not paying attention. On the other hand, I agree with thegreekdog reasonably often. Now, you can go ahead and point out the conservative posters that you disagree with with any consistency at all! You can also mention the liberals that you agree with reasonably often. Yeah, I didn't think you could either, Mr Independent Moderate.

...really? i feel like we've been through this before.

dave and sultan were complete trolls and douchebags and i think everyone disagreed with them.

I'm not talking about their personalities in these fora, I'm talking about their positions.

player is unique to this forum and seems to make lots of people mad for various reasons, lol. those have nothing to do with your personal views.

I didn't say I got mad at her, I said I disagree with her all the time. That has EVERYTHING to do with my personal views.

i disagree with scotty and nightstrike and greek and other conservative posters more often than you realize.

You certainly don't speak up about it. Perhaps you can point to these voluminous disagreements?

but do you know why you don't notice? because those three rarely ever display hostility and disrespect towards other people, so i allow them to hold their different viewpoints (and might occasionally respectfully disagree).

That has nothing to do with noticing them. I notice when thegreekdog disagrees with Phatscotty, and he doesn't display hostility nor disrespect. So again...perhaps you can point to these voluminous disagreements?

the four you mentioned are all douchebags on a regular basis, with the exception of player (who i am more tolerant of than almost anyone). you aren't open-minded just because you disagree with them.

That has nothing to do with their positions.

similarly, i agree with you in principle on quite a few things, but you are one of the most abrasive posters on the forum and your well-made points are often couched within some form of insult. so why would i bother supporting someone like that?

Because a correct position is a correct position.

it's a matter of respect; give it and you will receive it back in turn.

I have to respect you first.

[Woodruff]

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

Ok then. My kids are in big trouble. My wife works and I stay home to make breakfast bring the little guy home for lunch. Then make supper for everyone. SometimesI clean the house when nobody is looking. I do mow the lawn but...

And if you had a daughter, and she got her first period, which parent would be best qualified to handle the issue? How about your sons first boner?

Phatscotty, even in the 1940s they had these neat devices called books.

[john9blue]

woody, you don't seem to understand. i don't care that much if someone holds an opinion that is different from mine. in fact, i often learn more from people like that, compared to reading the posts of someone that i already agree with.

if i take the time to get into a heated argument with someone, it's almost always because they are both clearly wrong AND disrespectful. i rarely get into arguments with the conservatives on this forum because they are rarely disrespectful.

[Woodruff]

woody, you don't seem to understand. i don't care that much if someone holds an opinion that is different from mine. in fact, i often learn more from people like that, compared to reading the posts of someone that i already agree with.

if i take the time to get into a heated argument with someone, it's almost always because they are both clearly wrong AND disrespectful. i rarely get into arguments with the conservatives on this forum because they are rarely disrespectful.

Because completely ignoring any discussion point that goes against your worldview is respectful? They may not be abrasively disrespectful, but there is no question that several conservatives here are quite disrespectful.

Your claims of moderateship are a joke.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Eh, I'd much rather have someone call me a moron if they're also actually addressing the issues and explaining why they think I'm being a moron rather than chasing someone like the "respectful" Scotty around for 20 pages without being able to get anything other than propaganda and weaselly statements out of him.
It's like he's a politician in training or something.

[AAFitz]

Oh, cool. I thought I might be because you seem to ignore my questions.

If they were good questions....that happens.

[john9blue]

woody, you don't seem to understand. i don't care that much if someone holds an opinion that is different from mine. in fact, i often learn more from people like that, compared to reading the posts of someone that i already agree with.

if i take the time to get into a heated argument with someone, it's almost always because they are both clearly wrong AND disrespectful. i rarely get into arguments with the conservatives on this forum because they are rarely disrespectful.

Because completely ignoring any discussion point that goes against your worldview is respectful? They may not be abrasively disrespectful, but there is no question that several conservatives here are quite disrespectful.

Your claims of moderateship are a joke.

if you aren't getting through to someone, then either change the way you articulate your ideas, or ignore them.

seriously, if scotty's such a stupid, hopeless lost cause, then why do you keep debating with him? what are you trying to accomplish?

[saxitoxin]

seriously, if scotty's such a stupid, hopeless lost cause, then why do you keep debating with him? what are you trying to accomplish?

I've come to the conclusion Woodruff may be seeing a really bad therapist for anger management who has told him to use CC to vent. What he really needs is a ScreamBody, new from MIT ...

[2dimes]

I'm talking about a little girl having a lot less examples shown to her about how to be a woman or how a woman acts or what a woman is in a household with 2 fathers, and a little boy having a lot less examples shown to him about how to be a man or how a man acts or what a man is like in a household with 2 mothers, amongst hundreds of other extremely important things.

Ok then. My kids are in big trouble. My wife works and I stay home to make breakfast bring the little guy home for lunch. Then make supper for everyone. SometimesI clean the house when nobody is looking. I do mow the lawn but...

And if you had a daughter, and she got her first period, which parent would be best qualified to handle the issue? How about your sons first boner?

Make up your mind. First you complain I'm sharing too much. Now you want to hear about my talks with my daughter?

I am super blessed to still have both my parents. I get along great with my dad.. now because I'm a adult. He did not talk to me about boners, my mom did. He was at work or watching TV. I don't fault him for it he just isn't the kind of guy that wants to chit chat about that sort of thing. So I know where you're going with this and I agree most guys are woefully unprepared for talking to their kids about sexuality even if it isn't a daughter.

As luck would have it the school sent home a consent form to authorize menstration/soon your body will experience changes instruction in "health class." just last week.

I'm thinking, "whoa, they're doing this in grade 4?" Can't they just be kids a little longer? So I left the, "Sign the form so I don't have to embarass myself talking about this sort of thing." parenting to my wife and started talking to our daughter. In defense of my wife, she did do homework with our daughter for the class after so she was fine once the school and I got the ball rolling. She has allready broke out, "Well I don't have one of those things. I don't know how they work." Once when I had to tell her it was fine after the little guy did something in the tub that scared her. So come boner time I'm up to bat.

I'm not the kind of guy that is frightened by such things so I read up on female reproduction extensivly back when I wanted to try to find out what makes females tic. Didn't work, they're much too dynamic so even though I know way more than your average bear. They run on emotional states that depend on too many unknowns. Sometimes their emotions cause more emotions. Too dangerous, fall back!

So yeah your typical dad, "Oh, uh, yeah... You bled out your, um.. thing. Uh daddy doesn't have those parts. Maybe put a sock in it? No wait you have to buy special girl pad things. I can give you a ride to the store but I can't go in. I think it will stop but then it happens again. Don't you have friends you could talk about this with?"

I suspect that's more likely a heterosexual guy that never talks to women about women things. Some of the gay guys have mostly girls as friends. That is how I know I'm not gay. I can't be friends with women. Next thing they'll want to talk their feelings, or periods. I don't want to hear about you retaining water and not feeling "fresh" over appletinis. However even though I get along really great with my kids but I'm their parent not their friends. I tell them the truths as I know it, yet I am not embarrassed if I don't and we need to find another source to educate us both about geology or something.

I don't fear talking about any of those things with my daughter or son. However you're right you need to be bold but still balance that, by making sure have enough trust that they know they can talk to you openly.

But earlier in the thread I wrote that each gender has things to offer both kids that only the can. My son's the one that will suffer when I explain way too much about Fallopian tubes to him. "Dad, that's gross! I'll never touch a woman there."

[2dimes]

One thing I've started early with both my kids. Even though I question it myself a bit. I allways say things like. "Go put on a shirt. In North America you should not be naked unless you're at a nudest colony or with some one you're married to." "You should not have sex with someone unless you're ready to have a baby. Birth control is not 100% you might make a baby." "It's best to be married to someone if you want to have children. You could have a baby with someone you're not married to but it makes things more complicated."

Even though they don't understand fully yet hopfully it helps them think more about things. Later when these things start to be potential factors in life. If my daughter makes a mistake and plays "just the tip." without protection and gets pregnant we will fully support and encourage her and yes even if she chooses to abort.

I am quite pro life and hope she would not kill the fetus but I guess I'm really pro choice, making a baby is a lot of physical commitment. I can't force a woman to do that. Even though I think abortion is really horrible.

[2dimes]

Oh, cool. I thought I might be because you seem to ignore my questions.

If they were good questions....that happens.

It must have been a good one I asked just before I posted that then because he never answered it.

[jonesthecurl]

I'm not convinced that Marriage is important at all.

I think it is. I see the vast difference (generally speaking, of course) between children in school who have two parents and children in school who have one. It is quite striking.

But do the parents have to be married?
(and do they have to be heterosexual?)

[Juan_Bottom]

^ ya, that was my point.

[jonesthecurl]

Yeah. I guess it's the point of the whole thread really.
Also, even tho the poll only gives one way to say "bad idea" and divides the pro votes lots of ways, the antis are still less than half.

[squishyg]

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in this thread about the difference between sex and gender. Sex is your anatomical parts. Gender is masculinity/femininity.

In addition, Kinsey anyone? Is a Kinsey scale 4 woman married to a Kinsey scale 2 man qualified to parent?

[AndyDufresne]

One thing I've started early with both my kids. Even though I question it myself a bit. I allways say things like. "Go put on a shirt. In North America you should not be naked unless you're at a nudest colony or with some one you're married to." "You should not have sex with someone unless you're ready to have a baby. Birth control is not 100% you might make a baby." "It's best to be married to someone if you want to have children. You could have a baby with someone you're not married to but it makes things more complicated."

Even though they don't understand fully yet hopfully it helps them think more about things. Later when these things start to be potential factors in life. If my daughter makes a mistake and plays "just the tip." without protection and gets pregnant we will fully support and encourage her and yes even if she chooses to abort.

I am quite pro life and hope she would not kill the fetus but I guess I'm really pro choice, making a baby is a lot of physical commitment. I can't force a woman to do that. Even though I think abortion is really horrible.

For these last two posts of yours, 2dimes, I give you a banana. Good and interesting posts.


--Andy

[Woodruff]

seriously, if scotty's such a stupid, hopeless lost cause, then why do you keep debating with him? what are you trying to accomplish?

Because I despise intentional misinformation and ignorance.