Education in the USA

[thegreekdog]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

[waauw]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

no but the problem is that socialism is a beast that is hard to controll once you let it go. Politicians have the tendency to pull more and more power to themselves. Now overall this doesn't show a bad intent per sé. However the more power a politician has, the less he'll have the propensity to listen to what the opposition says. In extreme cases where socialism has progressed so far that the government has too much power, it often does lead to indoctrination.

But even in these cases the socialist leaders might not have bad intents. They want kids to learn good moral values. Though what they consider good moral values, may not be what others consider good moral values and that's where the conflict arrises.

An argument often used on the liberal side is that the government shouldn't teach kids moral values whatsoever. It's up to the parents to teach that to their children

[Symmetry]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

no but the problem is that socialism is a beast that is hard to controll once you let it go. Politicians have the tendency to pull more and more power to themselves. Now overall this doesn't show a bad intent per sé. However the more power a politician has, the less he'll have the propensity to listen to what the opposition says. In extreme cases where socialism has progressed so far that the government has too much power, it often does lead to indoctrination.

But even in these cases the socialist leaders might not have bad intents. They want kids to learn good moral values. Though what they consider good moral values, may not be what others consider good moral values and that's where the conflict arrises.

An argument often used on the liberal side is that the government shouldn't teach kids moral values whatsoever. It's up to the parents to teach that to their children

Nonsense.

[PLAYER57832]

Standardization could go against both flavors, but it won't. There is too much on the line for any honest reform. And it's working so well, I view commoncore as a consolidation of the leftist control. I mean, the government just monopolized all student loans, they are in the business now. They aren't going to "free up" education for real reform...on the contrary, they are locking it down.

Sounds a lot like a conspiracy theory and not a lot like a logical argument.

Standardization is an authoritarian concept. You are going to have to explain to me (or show me) why anyone liberal would be in support of such a regieme... (considering authoritarianism is the antithesis liberalism).

Sure this may very well be a government control thing; but my argument has never been about government control in this thread. I my question is the prevelance of liberal indoctrination, not governmental indoctrination.

And before you say they are the same thing i'll refer you to the above point: "Standardization is an authoritarian concept". That pretty clearly shows that they are not.

Whoever is in power. The issue transcends party. I don't care what side anyone is on, they are going to want to indoctrinate whatever ideology further progresses their power. Leftism is bigger than that, and I and others have argued Leftism is currently enjoying religion/worship status, promoted on all fronts (media, education, hollywood, culture, sports, government).

“He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.”

So, you truly believe that LIBERALS are currently in control in the US????

Pretty funny, since so few here, even fewer younger than 40 even understand what liberalism really means.

[Lootifer]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

Nah if you look at his original post he is clearly outlining liberal opinions on social issues; and accuses them of indoctrination.

He can try and back peddle all he like with this tangent. But as far as I am concerned this thread was answered pages ago.

[waauw]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

no but the problem is that socialism is a beast that is hard to controll once you let it go. Politicians have the tendency to pull more and more power to themselves. Now overall this doesn't show a bad intent per sé. However the more power a politician has, the less he'll have the propensity to listen to what the opposition says. In extreme cases where socialism has progressed so far that the government has too much power, it often does lead to indoctrination.

But even in these cases the socialist leaders might not have bad intents. They want kids to learn good moral values. Though what they consider good moral values, may not be what others consider good moral values and that's where the conflict arrises.

An argument often used on the liberal side is that the government shouldn't teach kids moral values whatsoever. It's up to the parents to teach that to their children

Nonsense.

No nonsense, my country is an example of this. We have quite an extensive social system(mostly cuz of our strong cultural relations with France). When I went to high school we had to follow informational classes about ecological technologies and global warming the same way we had to follow classes about sex, anticonception, etc.
Now I personally had no problem with solar energy but they were even propagating bio-oil which is a horrible way of creating energy, yet they wanted to propagate it to 14-15 yo kids who don't really know that much of the world yet. And I call it propaganda cuz they told us all the advantages and barely any of the disadvantages, which is not exactly how you create a critical mind.

and if my example is enough, go read the books of Friedrich Hayek

[Phatscotty]

Fair enough PS - ill give you the benefit of the doubt, but bear in mind that book by whats-his-face is trying to argue that it's liberal indoctrination, not leftist indoctrination; and many of your other examples have cited social or liberal indoctrination rather than left-wing indoctrination (things like global warming/feminism/gay rights etc etc are social issues, not fiscal).

Leftism has no interest in promoting social values? Why would something being social or liberal mean it cannot be leftist?

[Phatscotty]

I'm not exactly sure where I'm gonna go with this yet, but I know some answers lie here.

It is from Dewey's own words that you can see his true intentions. He wrote and helped write the Humanist Manifesto after returning from a trip to meet with others of like mind in eastern europe. Two books he wrote tell how he planned to accomplish the goals laid out in the Humanist Manifesto through America's public school system. The first title is Faith in Education and the second is Democracy and Education.

B.F. Skinner jumped on the bandwagon, working to change the mold for American children through public schools and help that mold conform with many goals of the Humanist Manifesto. THE FATHER OF MODERN EDUCATION

John Dewey is recognized as the Father of modern education. The N.E.A. gave him high recognition for his works. Much of his changes to schools was made possible by the theory of evolution being so strongly accepted after the writings of Charles Darwin. John Dewey wrote a theory of education and democracy that was based on evolution.

The education theories of Dewey would not have been so acceptable to people had it not been for the previous acceptance of Darwin's Theory of Evolution.That theory was widely received around the world. Evolution praises change and declares the highest good is a positive change. Darwin's theory helped strengthen the ideas of relativism and positivism which had been around for ages but were reinforced by John Dewey.

John Dewey developed ideas of evolutionary democracy and evolutionary education and evolutionary law.

the rest

show

[Lootifer]

Blergh, really dont want to go down the religion in education path...

[Phatscotty]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

no but the problem is that socialism is a beast that is hard to controll once you let it go. Politicians have the tendency to pull more and more power to themselves. Now overall this doesn't show a bad intent per sé. However the more power a politician has, the less he'll have the propensity to listen to what the opposition says. In extreme cases where socialism has progressed so far that the government has too much power, it often does lead to indoctrination.

But even in these cases the socialist leaders might not have bad intents. They want kids to learn good moral values. Though what they consider good moral values, may not be what others consider good moral values and that's where the conflict arrises.

An argument often used on the liberal side is that the government shouldn't teach kids moral values whatsoever. It's up to the parents to teach that to their children

That's what this was all about

[Phatscotty]

Blergh, really dont want to go down the religion in education path...

then take the religion out of it or skip it, and focus on the J. Dewey parts. I didn't want to break it all up

I don't think it's possible to understand the history of our education without the religion in education "path". That is our history

[thegreekdog]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

Nah if you look at his original post he is clearly outlining liberal opinions on social issues; and accuses them of indoctrination.

He can try and back peddle all he like with this tangent. But as far as I am concerned this thread was answered pages ago.

I agree that this thread ended pages ago (since I ended it motherfucker).

Phatscotty uses the terms "liberal" and "socialist" and "Democrat" interchangeably. In his defense, many people do this and do it the other way too ("conservative" and "libertarian" and "Republican" and "Tea Party [whatever]") interchangeably.

[Phatscotty]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

Nah if you look at his original post he is clearly outlining liberal opinions on social issues; and accuses them of indoctrination.

He can try and back peddle all he like with this tangent. But as far as I am concerned this thread was answered pages ago.

I agree that this thread ended pages ago (since I ended it motherfucker).

Phatscotty uses the terms "liberal" and "socialist" and "Democrat" interchangeably. In his defense, many people do this and do it the other way too ("conservative" and "libertarian" and "Republican" and "Tea Party [whatever]") interchangeably.

Which is why, again, I am using the term Leftism. Look at the original statement, and look at the top of this page and the last page. I've hardly even used the term Democrat or Socialist even. You are reading someone else's post and juxtaposing it on me. I swear you do this on purpose. You are the one who introduced "Democrat" just a bit ago, so wtf is your deal in saying I have been using those terms? (I haven't)

[crispybits]

What does "leftist" mean then if it isn't "democrat" or "socialist" or "liberal" PS?

[Phatscotty]

What does "leftist" mean then if it isn't "democrat" or "socialist" or "liberal" PS?

Leftism - The ideology of the political left.

Your point does not in any way mean I have been using terminology that I have not been using/trying not to use. Everyone is trying to use it

[Phatscotty]

[Phatscotty]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

Nah if you look at his original post he is clearly outlining liberal opinions on social issues; and accuses them of indoctrination.

He can try and back peddle all he like with this tangent. But as far as I am concerned this thread was answered pages ago.

I agree that this thread ended pages ago (since I ended it motherfucker).

Great. So what is your conclusion? America's education system leans to the right, or is it straight down the center? Or do we not have enough information to have an opinion one way or the other? And if it leans left, the education system can resist the temptation to crusade their political beliefs in minds that are sent to them for the specific purpose of molding?

[Lootifer]

Firstly @ Crispybits/Phatscotty/anyone else wondering about the relevant definitions of things in this thread.

Call it liberalism, leftism, whateverthefuckyoulikeism, THIS is the premise of this thread:

You are missing the correct perspective. But that's okay, you aren't in America and did not go through American education and do not have friends who all grew up to work in the education system, like I do

it is very true that the Left completely dominated our universities. Virtually all radicalism comes from the universities, but it's "education" so their radicalism gets mainstreamed through culture shock and emotional manipulation/control. There overall statement about Education in America is "we teach you what to think" and its NOT "we teach you how to think". That isn't to say there aren't great and wonderful teachers out there of either ideology, because there are. But it's the exception. You also need to understand I have witnessed first hand leftist brainwashing on more than a few occasions at universities and community colleges and high school I attended, my friends attended, my family attended.

If we can bring this angle full circle into how brainwashing political correctness is being indoctrinated into our children today, we see news stories everyday here in America, especially on local levels, of teachers calling students "murderers" for cutting a piece of paper into the shape of a gun, calling the police because a student bit a pop tart into the shape of a gun, suspending students for wearing 2nd amendment t-shirts, and expelling eagle scouts who left their rifle in the trunk of their car and did the right thing and notified someone that the situation needed to be corrected, but the panic came anyways. Our children are learning to fear the mention of the word "gun" in their schools, and those schools are dominated by the Left. I'm sure I don't have to go over the removal of God from schools, again, the Left makes the rules.

Like they say with gay marriage "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" the same can also be said for our right to bear arms "just wait until the young people can vote, and it won't even be an issue anymore" Because, as all young people who are indoctrinated will tell you (just ask them) they know all about the world they have never stepped a foot into, and are more than willing to confront their parents and elders about how they don't know anything, and their ways are wrong, and the young people who have no experience know what's best. It's the mark of brainwash

And yes that is happening. Students are failing more and more. In New York some high schools are producing graduates at levels of 80% that are illiterate. And yes the test are also changing. They are being "standardized", and the name of that program is Common Core if you want to understand what I'm talking about here

Great. So what is your conclusion? America's education system leans to the right, or is it straight down the center? Or do we not have enough information to have an opinion one way or the other? And if it leans left, the education system can resist the temptation to crusade their political beliefs in minds that are sent to them for the specific purpose of molding?

My conclusion is that the main purpose and focus (and outcome/results) of education in the US is students are being taught how to learn, not what to learn.

[Phatscotty]

That's fine Loot. What do you base your conclusion on?

[Lootifer]

The information contained in this thread.

[Jippd]

If one knows how to learn can't they decide for themselves what to learn?

[chang50]

If one knows how to learn can't they decide for themselves what to learn?

Indeed,that is what education should be about,teaching critical thinking skills,not passing on 'American' or any other set of values.

[crispybits]

What does "leftist" mean then if it isn't "democrat" or "socialist" or "liberal" PS?

Leftism - The ideology of the political left.

Your point does not in any way mean I have been using terminology that I have not been using/trying not to use. Everyone is trying to use it

I'm just trying to work out the actual exact problem you're trying to point out here, because even if we replace any mention of liberal or whatever else in your posts with leftist, I'm still not sure what you think the problem is exactly.

In left-right politics, left-wing describes an outlook or specific position that accepts or supports social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality. It typically involves a concern for those in society who are perceived as disadvantaged relative to others and an assumption that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished.

The political terms Left and Right were coined during the French Revolution (1789–1799), referring to the seating arrangement in the Estates General: those who sat on the left generally opposed the monarchy and supported the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization, while those on the right were supportive of the traditional institutions of the Old Regime. Use of the term "Left" became more prominent after the restoration of the French monarchy in 1815 when it was applied to the "Independents".

The term was later applied to a number of movements, especially republicanism during the French Revolution, socialism, communism, and anarchism. Beginning in the last half of the Twentieth Century, the phrase left-wing has been used to describe an ever widening family of movements, including the civil rights movement, anti-war movements, and environmental movements, and finally being extended to entire parties, including the Democratic Party in the United States and the Labour Party in the United Kingdom. In two party systems, the terms "left" and "right" are now sometimes used as labels for the two parties, with one party designated as the "left" and the other "right", even when neither party is "left-wing" in the original sense of being opposed to the ruling class.

In your first couple of posts you mentioned radicalism and political corrrectness. If we're talking about political correctness gone mad type situations, like the teacher who decided that a pencil being used as a play gun in class was something to react strongly to, then I'd agree that sometimes the boundaries are overstepped, but to claim that the entire education system is indoctrinating kids into this level of political correctness seems ridiculous to me.

If you mean that kids are being indoctrinated into radicalism or anti-authoritarianism then you have some work cut out to explain why the majority of radicals within the history of our society are those with lesser educational status or achievement (example, blacks during the civil rights movement). You'll also have to describe how one indoctrinates ant-authoritarianism without also losing control of the minds they are teaching, as the schools themselves are one of the biggest authority figures, along with the parents, that kids have.

If you mean that kids are being indoctrinated into social equality, then I would ask if that is not a good thing? Do we not want future generations to be without forms of bigotry such as racism, homophobia, sectarianism between different religions, etc? Isn't a world where we tolerate differences between ideologies and ethnicities and the like (within reason - not saying we should defend things like religiously motivated violence/violent ideologies) going to be overall a better world than one where we teach future generations to distrust people different to them and divide society instead of acting in a co-operational way?

If you mean something else, then be clear about what you mean. Leftism is a term which can cover a HUGE number of different philosophies. I'm sure you don't mean that all left-wing thoughts are bad, so be more precise. What exactly is it that kids are being taught that you disagree with. I have my own guess, but I'm not going to post it because I want your answer without prompting. And before you say you already have you haven't as far as I can see, you've just posted rhetoric, which is fine if you've made the point already and you're backing it up, but it's very confusing to get down to the base issues based purely on that. No youtube videos, no "look what happened in this school" media reports, just in your own words what exactly is the ideology/philosophy you disagree with that is being pushed on kids?

[thegreekdog]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

Nah if you look at his original post he is clearly outlining liberal opinions on social issues; and accuses them of indoctrination.

He can try and back peddle all he like with this tangent. But as far as I am concerned this thread was answered pages ago.

I agree that this thread ended pages ago (since I ended it motherfucker).

Great. So what is your conclusion? America's education system leans to the right, or is it straight down the center? Or do we not have enough information to have an opinion one way or the other? And if it leans left, the education system can resist the temptation to crusade their political beliefs in minds that are sent to them for the specific purpose of molding?

Teachers lean left for two reasons: (1) anecdotal evidence; (2) teachers unions

Not indoctrination for three reasons: (1) doesn't work (e.g. Phatscotty, TGD); (2) no evidence of indoctrination or plan of indoctrination; (3) simpler reason teachers lean left (see (2) above).

[BigBallinStalin]

He should probably use the term "Democratic" rather than liberal or socialist. I don't think socialists are necessarily in favor of indoctrination through education either.

no but the problem is that socialism is a beast that is hard to controll once you let it go. Politicians have the tendency to pull more and more power to themselves. Now overall this doesn't show a bad intent per sé. However the more power a politician has, the less he'll have the propensity to listen to what the opposition says. In extreme cases where socialism has progressed so far that the government has too much power, it often does lead to indoctrination.

But even in these cases the socialist leaders might not have bad intents. They want kids to learn good moral values. Though what they consider good moral values, may not be what others consider good moral values and that's where the conflict arrises.

An argument often used on the liberal side is that the government shouldn't teach kids moral values whatsoever. It's up to the parents to teach that to their children

Nonsense.

No nonsense, my country is an example of this. We have quite an extensive social system(mostly cuz of our strong cultural relations with France). When I went to high school we had to follow informational classes about ecological technologies and global warming the same way we had to follow classes about sex, anticonception, etc.
Now I personally had no problem with solar energy but they were even propagating bio-oil which is a horrible way of creating energy, yet they wanted to propagate it to 14-15 yo kids who don't really know that much of the world yet. And I call it propaganda cuz they told us all the advantages and barely any of the disadvantages, which is not exactly how you create a critical mind.

and if my example is enough, go read the books of Friedrich Hayek

You're being trolled. Just thought you should know!