Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

[PLAYER57832]

Listen to the tape again. Did Walker actually say that "he" considered putting trouble makers out here?

Yes, he did.

Or did he say that he considered the possibility that trouble makers "would" show up, ya know, in order to prepare for that possibility...???

No, that was not the context of the unedited tape I heard.

do you have the text? let's see

http://www.buffalobeast.com/?p=5045
Koch: We’ll back you any way we can. What we were thinking about the crowd was, uh, was planting some troublemakers.

Walker: You know, well, the only problem with that —because we thought about that. The problem—the, my only gut reaction to that is right now the lawmakers I’ve talked to have just completely had it with them, the public is not really fond of this…[explains that planting troublemakers may not work.] My only fear would be if there’s a ruckus caused is that maybe the governor has to settle to solve all these problems…[something about '60s liberals.]…Let ‘em protest all they want…Sooner or later the media stops finding it interesting.

Koch: [Laughs] Well, I tell you what, Scott: once you crush these bastards I’ll fly you out to Cali and really show you a good time.

Walker: All right, that would be outstanding.

Except the bits in [..] are not what was said. The parts not deleted, though speak for themselves.

[PopeBenXVI]

How many parents do you think became very seriously pissed off at the teachers and their union for the walkout?

Ahhhh......Lots! I know multiple families ( I am not even in Madison) that had to make last minute arrangements to miss work themselves and stay home with kids that were not in school. You see, thats what happens to people who have to show up for work every day instead of protesting.

I am not at all excusing this, but don't the parents also have to do this for snow days? You see, intelligent parenting would account for these sorts of situations. In the military, it was a requirement that we had a place for our kids in situations such as this.

Yes they do, so now they have to take vacation days for snow days as well as multiple days of teacher walk outs. They can also just take an unpaid day if the company will let them and they are not able to arrange anything else. Using some simple estimates on numbers this is what I figure is reasonable & fair to estimate for the number of businesses and families effected by the illegal walkout.

Madison district enrollment (not including other areas in the state) - Just under 25,000 students
Kids per household - Roughly 2 - give or take the national average by likely .3 kids
This leaves 12,500 families
Subtract that some kids would have been sick any given day anyway
Subtract the fact that some of the parents would not give a rip on a normal day anyway and this would not change their day
Subtract the kids who have at least 1 parent as a teacher.

I think it is fair to say that at least 10,000 families were directly effected by having to take off work, try and find a last minute daycare that was not full, taking an unpaid day themselves, getting a grandparent to watch them etc. This in turn effected many businesses as well. costing the state 9 million in my opinion is an underestimate.

[Night Strike]

Besides, these teachers are Americans and they have the right to leave their work.

And the employer also has the right to fire them for walking out on the job.












Oh, wait, it's the union immunity card.

[Phatscotty]

Listen to the tape again. Did Walker actually say that "he" considered putting trouble makers out here?

Yes, he did.

Or did he say that he considered the possibility that trouble makers "would" show up, ya know, in order to prepare for that possibility...???

No, that was not the context of the unedited tape I heard.

do you have the text? let's see

I see, so you seem to think claiming someone is lying is appropriate discussion tactic?

No, I told you what I heard.

Not at all. I said, let's see the text. Sometimes I don't even know why I bother.....

[Phatscotty]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

It was meant as a sidebar discussion. It fascinates (and repulses) me that Wisconsin teachers are required to have a note from a doctor if they're going to take their negotiated sick days.

Sick days are much more narrowly defined than personal days. Sick days are supposed to be used for personal or immediate family illnesses while personal days are for everything else.

I well understand that. That being said, how can a teacher be trusted with the education of a school district's future and yet not be trusted to take sick days when they claim they are? I just don't understand that logical juxtaposition.

That's the thing. They can't be trusted anymore...

[PLAYER57832]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

It was meant as a sidebar discussion. It fascinates (and repulses) me that Wisconsin teachers are required to have a note from a doctor if they're going to take their negotiated sick days.

Sick days are much more narrowly defined than personal days. Sick days are supposed to be used for personal or immediate family illnesses while personal days are for everything else.

I well understand that. That being said, how can a teacher be trusted with the education of a school district's future and yet not be trusted to take sick days when they claim they are? I just don't understand that logical juxtaposition.

That's the thing. They can't be trusted anymore...

Oh come off it. Teachers are people just like anyone else. and, you can just as easily argue that the kids are seeing an example of civil action.

At first, I was not in favor of what the Democrats did. Then I found out more -- that this was NOT part of Walker's campaign, that it is not so much a move to balance the budget as he claims, but to consolidate power in the governorship. The no-bid contract bit is likely to INCREASE costs and is definitely not part of the democracit process he has touted. In fact, Walker is subverting the process. AND... THAT should worry anyone, regardless of whether you like what he is doing or not. This claim that Walker was elected is somehow a mandate for him to do whatever he wants is not correct. A classic WI quote is that "democracy does not happen on a single day". One man was voted in, but that doesn't mean there is no discussion after. PARTICULARLY when what he is doing is not what he talked about in his campaign.

I see the Democrats leaving as not much different than a phsycial fillibuster. A political "trick", a "game", but one of the few things the minority party can actually do in this circumstance to protest. I excpet that the people of Winsconsin will resolve this eventually. That is who SHOULD decide it.

[PopeBenXVI]

Still no one here bringing up the "no bid contracts" talks about the 48 million dollar "no bid contract" that Doyle gave to the Spanish train corporation without even letting a Wisconsin company bid on it, let alone anyone else. Yet you are more concerned with a new Governor doing (but has not) what the old already did. Truly amazing.

[PLAYER57832]

Still no one here bringing up the "no bid contracts" talks about the 48 million dollar "no bid contract" that Doyle gave to the Spanish train corporation without even letting a Wisconsin company bid on it, let alone anyone else. Yet you are more concerned with a new Governor doing (but has not) what the old already did. Truly amazing.

So, your claim that Doyle did it means its now OK that Walker is making it far easier for him and future governors to do that?

[Night Strike]

Still no one here bringing up the "no bid contracts" talks about the 48 million dollar "no bid contract" that Doyle gave to the Spanish train corporation without even letting a Wisconsin company bid on it, let alone anyone else. Yet you are more concerned with a new Governor doing (but has not) what the old already did. Truly amazing.

So, your claim that Doyle did it means its now OK that Walker is making it far easier for him and future governors to do that?

No, he's saying that the people who are complaining about Walker doing it were completely silent when the previous governor did it at the direct expense of businesses in his own state.

[PLAYER57832]

Still no one here bringing up the "no bid contracts" talks about the 48 million dollar "no bid contract" that Doyle gave to the Spanish train corporation without even letting a Wisconsin company bid on it, let alone anyone else. Yet you are more concerned with a new Governor doing (but has not) what the old already did. Truly amazing.

So, your claim that Doyle did it means its now OK that Walker is making it far easier for him and future governors to do that?

No, he's saying that the people who are complaining about Walker doing it were completely silent when the previous governor did it at the direct expense of businesses in his own state.

The people of WI or other people?
It was not on the national lense then. Generally, people don't pay much attention to other states unless something extreme or unusual happens, like a bunch of Democrats leaving the state so there could be no vote.

However, are you saying that the people of WI were not upset? I suspect that might have been part of why they voted him out... and perhaps part of why they are now even more upset.

[Juan_Bottom]

The scales of logic and rational thinking continue to tip in player's favor.

[Phatscotty]

Only public sector union members are upset. To the large majority of WI, Walker is doing what they voted him in to do.

I admit, I have reservation about what Walker is doing. I think there might be more to it, going too far etc. This is why I am hoping the Democrats come back. Democracy will be done.

[PopeBenXVI]

The scales of logic and rational thinking continue to tip in player's favor.

Your scale needs to be calibrated properly.

Player is kinda right in that Doyle did not actually run for re election because he was so unpopular from all the dirty dealings he had. His approval was in the tank so he did not run for a 3rd term. Yes, It also is now on the national scene and was not before but the point is still that if one is to examine the behavior of governors no bid contracts the score is

Walker - 0
Doyle - more than 0

Their is nothing to accuse Walker of in that arena because he has not done it. If you want to actually complain about this then you would have to revisit this topic if it happens and you will likely find me on your side. Until then it's silly.

[Phatscotty]

Walker: You know, well, the only problem with that —because we thought about that. The problem—the, my only gut reaction to that is right now the lawmakers I’ve talked to have just completely had it with them, the public is not really fond of this… My only fear would be if there’s a ruckus caused is that maybe the governor has to settle to solve all these problems……Let ‘em protest all they want…Sooner or later the media stops finding it interesting.

Listen to the tape again. Did Walker actually say that "he" considered putting trouble makers out here?

Yes, he did.

Well, Player, there it is. Which part was it that you said you heard Walker say he was going to put troublemakers on the streets?

[Juan_Bottom]

Besides, these teachers are Americans and they have the right to leave their work.

And the employer also has the right to fire them for walking out on the job.

Oh, wait, it's the union immunity card.

I have no problem with you firing all the teachers in Wisconsin.

Your scale needs to be calibrated properly.

I fail to see how you just disagreed with us?

Only public sector union members are upset. To the large majority of WI, Walker is doing what they voted him in to do.

I never understood why all unions don't back each other up. When one union falls it becomes that much easier to knock over the next one.

[Phatscotty]

Besides, these teachers are Americans and they have the right to leave their work.

And the employer also has the right to fire them for walking out on the job.

Oh, wait, it's the union immunity card.

I have no problem with you firing all the teachers in Wisconsin.

Your scale needs to be calibrated properly.

I fail to see how you just disagreed with us?

Only public sector union members are upset. To the large majority of WI, Walker is doing what they voted him in to do.

I never understood why all unions don't back each other up. When one union falls it becomes that much easier to knock over the next one.

Private and Public unions are different for one huge reason. a private union must negotiate with a private company in a private sector way. In the public sector, people are as apt to stick it to the gov't as they are with insurance claims or lawyer fees. and the public sector can borrow billions.

just 2 cents

[Night Strike]

Besides, these teachers are Americans and they have the right to leave their work.

And the employer also has the right to fire them for walking out on the job.

Oh, wait, it's the union immunity card.

I have no problem with you firing all the teachers in Wisconsin.

Your scale needs to be calibrated properly.

I fail to see how you just disagreed with us?

Only public sector union members are upset. To the large majority of WI, Walker is doing what they voted him in to do.

I never understood why all unions don't back each other up. When one union falls it becomes that much easier to knock over the next one.

Private and Public unions are different for one huge reason. a private union must negotiate with a private company in a private sector way. In the public sector, people are as apt to stick it to the gov't as they are with insurance claims or lawyer fees. and the public sector can borrow billions.

just 2 cents

Even more importantly, a private union has a vested interest in making sure their wages/benefits don't cause the company to go bankrupt (unless you're the UAW) because then they'd also lose their jobs. However, a public union doesn't care how much those things cost because they can always make the public pay whatever they want.

What's downright disgusting is that these public unions think they have a right to make the public pay for nearly all of their healthcare and pensions while that same public has to pay 10-25% of their own income to provide for themselves. Each member of the private sector pays for their own benefits while also contributing 5-10% of their income to pay for public employee benefits. It's outright theft.

[Phatscotty]

And then, the protesters shit on the floor of the capitol.

Who wouldn't want to negotiate with these people?

[spurgistan]

Besides, these teachers are Americans and they have the right to leave their work.

And the employer also has the right to fire them for walking out on the job.

Oh, wait, it's the union immunity card.

I have no problem with you firing all the teachers in Wisconsin.

Your scale needs to be calibrated properly.

I fail to see how you just disagreed with us?

Only public sector union members are upset. To the large majority of WI, Walker is doing what they voted him in to do.

I never understood why all unions don't back each other up. When one union falls it becomes that much easier to knock over the next one.

Private and Public unions are different for one huge reason. a private union must negotiate with a private company in a private sector way. In the public sector, people are as apt to stick it to the gov't as they are with insurance claims or lawyer fees. and the public sector can borrow billions.

just 2 cents

Even more importantly, a private union has a vested interest in making sure their wages/benefits don't cause the company to go bankrupt (unless you're the UAW) because then they'd also lose their jobs. However, a public union doesn't care how much those things cost because they can always make the public pay whatever they want.

What's downright disgusting is that these public unions think they have a right to make the public pay for nearly all of their healthcare and pensions while that same public has to pay 10-25% of their own income to provide for themselves. Each member of the private sector pays for their own benefits while also contributing 5-10% of their income to pay for public employee benefits. It's outright theft.

And the people hath made an outcry, and, sooth, the unions volunteered to cut their benefits. But lo, the people did not take heed, for they listened to Fox News.

And the LORD shook his head, and said, "Wow."

[Iliad]

Listen to the tape again. Did Walker actually say that "he" considered putting trouble makers out here?

Yes, he did.

Or did he say that he considered the possibility that trouble makers "would" show up, ya know, in order to prepare for that possibility...???

No, that was not the context of the unedited tape I heard.

do you have the text? let's see

I see, so you seem to think claiming someone is lying is appropriate discussion tactic?

No, I told you what I heard.

Not at all. I said, let's see the text. Sometimes I don't even know why I bother.....

I posted the direct text, and a link to a transcript.

Sometimes I don't know why I bother with acquiescing with your demands, since the moment anyone asks you to provide any sources or actually argue for you post, instead of making pointless one liners you disappear.

[Phatscotty]

Besides, these teachers are Americans and they have the right to leave their work.

And the employer also has the right to fire them for walking out on the job.

Oh, wait, it's the union immunity card.

I have no problem with you firing all the teachers in Wisconsin.

Your scale needs to be calibrated properly.

I fail to see how you just disagreed with us?

Only public sector union members are upset. To the large majority of WI, Walker is doing what they voted him in to do.

I never understood why all unions don't back each other up. When one union falls it becomes that much easier to knock over the next one.

The differences between a public union and a private union are too immense. One union has to worry about staying in business on a yearly basis.

[Woodruff]

Have the states that have already eliminated collective bargaining and other union rights for teachers really done that much better?

In point of fact, the five states that have eliminated collective bargaining for teachers currently have the five lowest places among states education.

[Woodruff]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

It was meant as a sidebar discussion. It fascinates (and repulses) me that Wisconsin teachers are required to have a note from a doctor if they're going to take their negotiated sick days.

Sick days are much more narrowly defined than personal days. Sick days are supposed to be used for personal or immediate family illnesses while personal days are for everything else.

I well understand that. That being said, how can a teacher be trusted with the education of a school district's future and yet not be trusted to take sick days when they claim they are? I just don't understand that logical juxtaposition.

A lot of people don't get sick days.

Which is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO MY POINT. MY GOD!

[Woodruff]

How many parents do you think became very seriously pissed off at the teachers and their union for the walkout?

Ahhhh......Lots! I know multiple families ( I am not even in Madison) that had to make last minute arrangements to miss work themselves and stay home with kids that were not in school. You see, thats what happens to people who have to show up for work every day instead of protesting.

I am not at all excusing this, but don't the parents also have to do this for snow days? You see, intelligent parenting would account for these sorts of situations. In the military, it was a requirement that we had a place for our kids in situations such as this.

Yes they do, so now they have to take vacation days for snow days as well as multiple days of teacher walk outs.

No, you have completely missed my point. Why do these parents not have alternate care for their children in these situations? It's not at all difficult to find, as I know from personal experience. This ain't fucking rocket science. These families are just as affected by their own poor planning as they are by the walkout.

[Woodruff]

... This whole sidetrack about PTO (Paid Time Off), etc.. is irrelevant.

It was meant as a sidebar discussion. It fascinates (and repulses) me that Wisconsin teachers are required to have a note from a doctor if they're going to take their negotiated sick days.

Sick days are much more narrowly defined than personal days. Sick days are supposed to be used for personal or immediate family illnesses while personal days are for everything else.

I well understand that. That being said, how can a teacher be trusted with the education of a school district's future and yet not be trusted to take sick days when they claim they are? I just don't understand that logical juxtaposition.

That's the thing. They can't be trusted anymore...

You do surely recognize what an abysmally stupid statement that is...right?