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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:43 pm

natty dread wrote:Another article that shows clearly where phatscotty's rhetoric is coming from:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/0 ... 1995-2012/

Over the last 48 hours, there has been a sustained effort to smear Trayvon Martin, the 17-year old African-American who was shot dead by George Zimmerman a month ago. Martin’s mother, Sybrina Fulton, said, ā€œThey killed my son, now they’re trying to kill his reputation.ā€

Thus far these attacks have fallen into two categories: false and irrelevant. Much of this leaked information seems intended to play into stereotypes about young African-American males. Here’s what everyone should know:

1. Prominent conservative websites published fake photos of Martin. Twitchy, a new website run by prominent conservative blogger Michelle Malkin, promoted a photo — purportedly from Martin’s Facebook page — that shows Martin in saggy pants and flipping the bird. The photo, which spread quickly on conservative websites and Twitter, is intended to paint Martin as a thug. As Twitchy later acknowledged, it is not a photo of Trayvon Martin. [Examiner]

2. The Sanford Police selectively leaked irrelevant, negative information about Martin. The authorities told the Orlando Sentinel this morning that Trayvon was suspended from school for ten days ā€œafter being found with an empty marijuana baggie.ā€ There is no evidence that Martin was under the influence of drugs at the time of his death, nor would prior possession of marijuana be a reason for killing him. It’s unclear what the relevance of the leak was, other than to smear Martin. [Orlando Sentinel]

3. On Fox News, Geraldo said that Martin was dressed ā€œlike a wannabe gangster.ā€ Bill O’Reilly agreed with him. The sole evidence is that Martin was wearing a hoodie. Geraldo added that ā€œeveryone that ever stuck up a convenience storeā€ was wearing a hoodie. [ThinkProgress; The Blaze]

4. Without any evidence, prominent right-wing bloggers suggested that Martin was a drug dealer. Right-wing blogger Dan Riehl advances the theory, also advanced in a widely linked peice on a site called Wagist. There does not appear to be any evidence to support this claim whatsoever. [Riehl World View]

5. Without any evidence, a right-wing columnist alleged that Martin assaulted a bus driver. Unlike Zimmerman, Trayvon has no documented history of violence. This allegation continues to be advanced by a blogger on the Examiner even after the real reason was leaked to the police and confirmed by the family. [Miami Herald; Examiner]

6. Zimmerman’s friend says Martin was to blame because he was disrespectful to Zimmerman. Zimmerman’s friend Joe Oliver said that Martin would not have been shot to death if Trayvon had just said ā€œI’m staying with my parents.ā€ Of course, Zimmerman was not a police officer, and Trayvon had no duty to tell him who he was or where he was going. [NBC News]

The final part of the effort to smear Trayvon Martin is to link him and his supporters to irresponsible fringe groups like the New Black Panthers and marginal provocateurs like Louis Farrakhan. Threats by these groups are serious and should be investigated, but they have nothing to do with Martin or his supporters. The leader of the effort to associate Martin with these groups is Matt Drudge. You can see how he is framing the story today here.

Ultimately, whether Martin was a perfect person is irrelevant to whether Zimmerman’s conduct that night was justified.
Clearly, there are two different versions of the events that transpired on February 26, the night Trayvon was killed. There are conflicting statements by witnesses and conflicting evidence as to who was the aggressor. Zimmerman has the right to tell his side of the story. But his opportunity to do this will come in a court of law after he is charged and arrested. In the meantime, Zimmerman’s supporters should stop trying to smear the reputation of a dead, 17-year-old boy.


Or, this is just more shit made up when negative parts of the truth come out and you don't like it. The truth is not always positive and full of positive things, and it's usually quite negative to at least someone involved.

I liked number 6 though. I think it is true that Trayvon would very likely still be alive to day if he said "I'm a guest at my Dads, Mr Martin."

For all the crazy responses this simple post will likely get, I didn't say or imply that Trayvon was under any authority or obligation to answer the question of why he was in that community, and totally has the right to remain silent if he wants to, and get even respond "You feeling froggish fool? JUMP!".

So I will pre-emptively say it another way. If he were polite, not racially profiling, or just courteous, or just even the eeniest teeniest bit co-operative in the simplest of forms, I really do think he would probably be still be alive.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:18 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
natty dread wrote:Another article that shows clearly where phatscotty's rhetoric is coming from:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/0 ... 1995-2012/

Over the last 48 hours, there has been a sustained effort to smear Trayvon Martin, the 17-year old African-American who was shot dead by George Zimmerman a month ago. Martin’s mother, Sybrina Fulton, said, ā€œThey killed my son, now they’re trying to kill his reputation.ā€

Thus far these attacks have fallen into two categories: false and irrelevant. Much of this leaked information seems intended to play into stereotypes about young African-American males. Here’s what everyone should know:

1. Prominent conservative websites published fake photos of Martin. Twitchy, a new website run by prominent conservative blogger Michelle Malkin, promoted a photo — purportedly from Martin’s Facebook page — that shows Martin in saggy pants and flipping the bird. The photo, which spread quickly on conservative websites and Twitter, is intended to paint Martin as a thug. As Twitchy later acknowledged, it is not a photo of Trayvon Martin. [Examiner]

2. The Sanford Police selectively leaked irrelevant, negative information about Martin. The authorities told the Orlando Sentinel this morning that Trayvon was suspended from school for ten days ā€œafter being found with an empty marijuana baggie.ā€ There is no evidence that Martin was under the influence of drugs at the time of his death, nor would prior possession of marijuana be a reason for killing him. It’s unclear what the relevance of the leak was, other than to smear Martin. [Orlando Sentinel]

3. On Fox News, Geraldo said that Martin was dressed ā€œlike a wannabe gangster.ā€ Bill O’Reilly agreed with him. The sole evidence is that Martin was wearing a hoodie. Geraldo added that ā€œeveryone that ever stuck up a convenience storeā€ was wearing a hoodie. [ThinkProgress; The Blaze]

4. Without any evidence, prominent right-wing bloggers suggested that Martin was a drug dealer. Right-wing blogger Dan Riehl advances the theory, also advanced in a widely linked peice on a site called Wagist. There does not appear to be any evidence to support this claim whatsoever. [Riehl World View]

5. Without any evidence, a right-wing columnist alleged that Martin assaulted a bus driver. Unlike Zimmerman, Trayvon has no documented history of violence. This allegation continues to be advanced by a blogger on the Examiner even after the real reason was leaked to the police and confirmed by the family. [Miami Herald; Examiner]

6. Zimmerman’s friend says Martin was to blame because he was disrespectful to Zimmerman. Zimmerman’s friend Joe Oliver said that Martin would not have been shot to death if Trayvon had just said ā€œI’m staying with my parents.ā€ Of course, Zimmerman was not a police officer, and Trayvon had no duty to tell him who he was or where he was going. [NBC News]

The final part of the effort to smear Trayvon Martin is to link him and his supporters to irresponsible fringe groups like the New Black Panthers and marginal provocateurs like Louis Farrakhan. Threats by these groups are serious and should be investigated, but they have nothing to do with Martin or his supporters. The leader of the effort to associate Martin with these groups is Matt Drudge. You can see how he is framing the story today here.

Ultimately, whether Martin was a perfect person is irrelevant to whether Zimmerman’s conduct that night was justified.
Clearly, there are two different versions of the events that transpired on February 26, the night Trayvon was killed. There are conflicting statements by witnesses and conflicting evidence as to who was the aggressor. Zimmerman has the right to tell his side of the story. But his opportunity to do this will come in a court of law after he is charged and arrested. In the meantime, Zimmerman’s supporters should stop trying to smear the reputation of a dead, 17-year-old boy.


Or, this is just more shit made up when negative parts of the truth come out and you don't like it.


In regard to #1 - here's the retraction from twichy.com that the "Facebook photos" they posted - and you posted earlier - were not really of Martin:
http://twitchy.com/2012/03/25/why-teamd ... r-justice/

According to michellemalkin.com, the URL twichy.com is owned by her:
http://michellemalkin.com/2012/03/07/an ... itchy-com/

According to WhoIs, michellemalkin.com is owned by a "Jesse Malkin."
http://www.whois.com/whois/michellemalkin.com

Media reports indicate Michelle Malkin's husband's name is "Jesse Malkin."
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/baltsun/acc ... atl=google
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Arc ... l=GooglePM

There seems to be an unimpeachable string of evidence indicating #1 of Natty's post was correct (the subsequent points, similarly, seem correct). Is it possible there is a vast conspiracy that is hacking the WhoIs database, as well as multiple websites, to discredit Michelle Malkin on on the Trayvon Martin case and this conspiracy has gone unreported via any media outlet? I guess anything's possible.

So I will pre-emptively say it another way. If he were polite, not racially profiling, or just courteous, or just even the eeniest teeniest bit co-operative in the simplest of forms, I really do think he would probably be still be alive.


If an unshaven, rapey looking man with an ear stud began running at you, without identifying himself, while you were in a crime infested neigborhood would your instinct be to (1) run away, (2) attack him, (3) assume a supine position, wait for him to get to you and then politely say "Hello - are you running toward me to inquire who I am? What identity documents can I provide to you?"
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Night Strike on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:07 pm

Some information I learned today:

1. I heard one radio program pronouncing his name as the Hispanic name of "Jorge" instead of the English name of "George". Which one is the correct pronunciation? If it's the first, then the media has REALLY gotten this wrong and are actively trying to paint him as white.

2. Apparently Zimmerman's voter registration card has him listed as Hispanic (not white) AND as a Democrat.

3. Spike Lee mis-tweeted Zimmerman's address which caused an elderly couple to have to leave their home in fear of their lives. Where is the call for civility from the left to stop all of these violent protestors?
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby keiths31 on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:19 pm

Here is a link to a story re: Spike Lee posting the wrong address

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/28/justice/florida-teen-spike-lee/
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:41 pm

Night Strike wrote:Some information I learned today:

1. I heard one radio program pronouncing his name as the Hispanic name of "Jorge" instead of the English name of "George". Which one is the correct pronunciation? If it's the first, then the media has REALLY gotten this wrong and are actively trying to paint him as white.

2. Apparently Zimmerman's voter registration card has him listed as Hispanic (not white) AND as a Democrat.

3. Spike Lee mis-tweeted Zimmerman's address which caused an elderly couple to have to leave their home in fear of their lives. Where is the call for civility from the left to stop all of these violent protestors?


Hmm, seems like a bunch more speculation, but I can at least disillusion you on the first point:

Link

You might also note on the second point, that the media have largely portrayed him as hispanic, at least in terms of mainstream sources.

On the third point, meh, so what. As keiths pointed out, the threat that has pushed them into hiding amounts to a letter they received that mentioned "skittles". If there's more to it than that, I'd be happy to see it, but at best it seems tangential, and certainly not an example of violent protest against the couple.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:49 pm

I seem to remember many here harping all over conservatives about their "civility" when Sarah Palin on talk radio were supposedly part of the blame in the Loughner/Giffords shooting for using the word "target" and using "bullseyes" on a map. I guess Spike Lee's direct calls for violence and even going out of his way to aid and abet and would be vigilante gets a pass but the largest stretch imaginable like in the Loughner instance will get you 2 weeks non-stop attacks. If Palin had only tweeted the political geographical tragets, she might have gotten a pass the same way Spike Lee gets a pass.

Does anyone think race has anything to do with Spike Lee getting away with it? (keep it respectful yall)
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:59 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I seem to remember many here harping all over conservatives about their "civility" when Sarah Palin on talk radio were supposedly part of the blame in the Loughner/Giffords shooting for using the word "target" and using "bullseyes" on a map. I guess Spike Lee's direct calls for violence and even going out of his way to aid and abet and would be vigilante gets a pass but the largest stretch imaginable like in the Loughner instance will get you 2 weeks non-stop attacks. If Palin had only tweeted the political geographical tragets, she might have gotten a pass the same way Spike Lee gets a pass.

Does anyone think race has anything to do with Spike Lee getting away with it? (keep it respectful yall)


Can you post any evidence that he directly called for violence? Or is this another made-up tidbit you've drunk the kool-aid on?

Also, I'm not sure Lee is getting a pass on this, there seems to be significant levels of criticism. Check out his twitter feed (warning, contains significant amounts of racist language, unsurprisingly):

Twitter
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:03 pm

Night Strike wrote:Some information I learned today:

1. I heard one radio program pronouncing his name as the Hispanic name of "Jorge" instead of the English name of "George". Which one is the correct pronunciation? If it's the first, then the media has REALLY gotten this wrong and are actively trying to paint him as white.

2. Apparently Zimmerman's voter registration card has him listed as Hispanic (not white) AND as a Democrat.

3. Spike Lee mis-tweeted Zimmerman's address which caused an elderly couple to have to leave their home in fear of their lives. Where is the call for civility from the left to stop all of these violent protestors?


You won't hear calls for civility because the conversation leaders on the left are goading their followers down an extremist path to achieve short-term political gains for themselves.

In any non-policy based event, an extremist will argue an ideology, a moderate will argue a situation. The goal of an extremist isn't to resolve the immediate situation, the situation is something to leverage for the creation of power centers (usually the enactment of new laws and/or the abolition of existing laws).

Natty and Aradhus are correctly classified as extremists based on their almost robotlike monotony of name calling and making societal judgements. You and Scott are also extremists based on the introduction of comparative morality (Sarah Palin?). These are all arguments in defense of an ideology.

BvP and TGD, on the other hands, are moderates as they've been arguing situational dynamics.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:15 pm

We are calling for civility, and reminding people of the previous rules that were stated, most recently in the loughner/giffords instance. All of this information that follows is a direct result of Spike Lee's tweet.

Lee retweeted two messages claiming to be the address of the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin. The messages were quickly re-posted all over Twitter, some with threatening messages directed at Zimmerman, including ā€œ#Deadā€œ and ā€Let’s turn up the heat on his b-tch ass.ā€

It later emerged that the address Lee posted was not in fact Zimmerman’s residence, but the home of an elderly couple now fearful for their safety. According to the Orlando Sentinel, the couple have temporarily moved into a hotel to escape the hate mail they’re now receiving, as well as any possible danger.

The messages were still visible on Lee’s Twitter account Wednesday afternoon, five days after they first appeared. Lee — who has more than 240,000 followers — has since written and re-posted dozens of messages about Martin, but none that appear to retract or apologize for the address tweets.


Intrestingly, a new 911 surveillance tape has been "leaked" and it shows Zimmerman apparently not having gashes to the back of his head, but he is handcuffed, and his shirt appears to be clean? I haven't seen the video available on the internet yet but I'm sure it's just matter of time. I will get it as soon as I can
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:22 pm

Phatscotty wrote:We are calling for civility, and reminding people of the previous rules that were stated, most recently in the loughner/giffords instance. All of this information that follows is a direct result of Spike Lee's tweet.

Lee retweeted two messages claiming to be the address of the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin. The messages were quickly re-posted all over Twitter, some with threatening messages directed at Zimmerman, including ā€œ#Deadā€œ and ā€Let’s turn up the heat on his b-tch ass.ā€

It later emerged that the address Lee posted was not in fact Zimmerman’s residence, but the home of an elderly couple now fearful for their safety. According to the Orlando Sentinel, the couple have temporarily moved into a hotel to escape the hate mail they’re now receiving, as well as any possible danger.

The messages were still visible on Lee’s Twitter account Wednesday afternoon, five days after they first appeared. Lee — who has more than 240,000 followers — has since written and re-posted dozens of messages about Martin, but none that appear to retract or apologize for the address tweets.


Intrestingly, a new 911 surveillance tape has been "leaked" and it shows Zimmerman apparently not having gashes to the back of his head, but he is handcuffed, and his shirt appears to be clean? I haven't seen the video available on the internet yet but I'm sure it's just matter of time. I will get it as soon as I can


So just to recap, he didn't, as you claim, call for violence? Keep slinging the mud, some of it might stick.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:25 pm

Phatscotty wrote:We are calling for civility


Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

In any case, the label "extremist" isn't a synonym for "bad person." All bodies politic have to have extremists to advance in one direction or the other, without which society would stagnate. Me simply recognizing you and Natty as extremists or BvP and TGD as moderates (at least in this situation) isn't a judgement that Natty is a worse person than BvP or visa versa.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:38 pm

You can move my theory all over your praxis any time you want, honey.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:39 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:We are calling for civility


Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.


I did not use them to to say anything or push anything, and it's not a response to make Trayvon look negative, it's a direct response to the media turning him into a 12 year old.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:45 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:We are calling for civility


Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.


I did not use them to to say anything or push anything, and it's not a response to make Trayvon look negative, it's a direct response to the media turning him into a 12 year old.


Weren't you posting pictures of some other dude to turn him into a gangsta thug? You could at least come out and admit that a lot of the sources you've been using for the last few days have been forgeries. You saw what they wanted you to think, and then disseminated it. I'm not sure you're the best person to be complaining about media disinformation on this case.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:49 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:We are calling for civility


Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.


I did not use them to to say anything or push anything, and it's not a response to make Trayvon look negative, it's a direct response to the media turning him into a 12 year old.


Weren't you posting pictures of some other dude to turn him into a gangsta thug? You could at least come out and admit that a lot of the sources you've been using for the last few days have been forgeries. You saw what they wanted you to think, and then disseminated it. I'm not sure you're the best person to be complaining about media disinformation on this case.


I don't know which pictures you mean, but the one I did post here was half incorrect and half correct. What I saw was a current picture, which I was anxious to see from day 1. The picture in question came from a person on twitter, and not exactly from the media which we are all talking about. I think I referred in the OP to it as "mainstream media"
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:54 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:We are calling for civility


Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.


I did not use them to to say anything or push anything, and it's not a response to make Trayvon look negative, it's a direct response to the media turning him into a 12 year old.


Weren't you posting pictures of some other dude to turn him into a gangsta thug? You could at least come out and admit that a lot of the sources you've been using for the last few days have been forgeries. You saw what they wanted you to think, and then disseminated it. I'm not sure you're the best person to be complaining about media disinformation on this case.


I don't know which pictures you mean, but the one I did post here was half incorrect and half correct. What I saw was a current picture, which I was anxious to see from day 1. The picture in question came from a person on twitter, and not exactly from the media which we are all talking about. I think I referred in the OP to it as "mainstream media"


So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that you received false information from twitter and posted it to a load of other people, and don't think you should apologise? Kind of like Spike Lee, right?
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:57 pm

No. There seems to have been some false information mixed in with the correct information. Both images were part of the same picture.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:03 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:We are calling for civility


Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

In any case, the label "extremist" isn't a synonym for "bad person." All bodies politic have to have extremists to advance in one direction or the other, without which society would stagnate. Me simply recognizing you and Natty as extremists or BvP and TGD as moderates (at least in this situation) isn't a judgement that Natty is a worse person than BvP or visa versa.


I got angry at being characterized as a moderate, but the "at least in this situation" part of Saxi's post made me much happier.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby kentington on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:31 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:We are calling for civility


Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

In any case, the label "extremist" isn't a synonym for "bad person." All bodies politic have to have extremists to advance in one direction or the other, without which society would stagnate. Me simply recognizing you and Natty as extremists or BvP and TGD as moderates (at least in this situation) isn't a judgement that Natty is a worse person than BvP or visa versa.


I got angry at being characterized as a moderate, but the "at least in this situation" part of Saxi's post made me much happier.


When compared to them aren't you a bit moderate?
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:41 pm

Greek is usually pretty moderate.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:45 pm

kentington wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:We are calling for civility


Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

In any case, the label "extremist" isn't a synonym for "bad person." All bodies politic have to have extremists to advance in one direction or the other, without which society would stagnate. Me simply recognizing you and Natty as extremists or BvP and TGD as moderates (at least in this situation) isn't a judgement that Natty is a worse person than BvP or visa versa.


I got angry at being characterized as a moderate, but the "at least in this situation" part of Saxi's post made me much happier.


When compared to them aren't you a bit moderate?


In this thread? Apparently I am. In other threads? Not so much. For example, I agree with Greecepwns theory that we need 62,000 representatives in the House.

In this thread, I like to think that the thing happened; we don't know why it happened and we still don't have all the facts. Politicians on both sides are using it to their advantage. Extremists on both sides are making ridiculous assertions.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:52 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
kentington wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:We are calling for civility


Obviously posting photos of a random thug and incorrectly claiming they're pictures of Martin can't reasonably be considered a "call for civility" since it is intended to steer opinions through whatever means necessary (including the presentation of false information). This is, rather, the use of the situation as a lever to create power centers - to advance an ideology.

In any case, the label "extremist" isn't a synonym for "bad person." All bodies politic have to have extremists to advance in one direction or the other, without which society would stagnate. Me simply recognizing you and Natty as extremists or BvP and TGD as moderates (at least in this situation) isn't a judgement that Natty is a worse person than BvP or visa versa.


I got angry at being characterized as a moderate, but the "at least in this situation" part of Saxi's post made me much happier.


When compared to them aren't you a bit moderate?


In this thread? Apparently I am. In other threads? Not so much. For example, I agree with Greecepwns theory that we need 62,000 representatives in the House.

In this thread, I like to think that the thing happened; we don't know why it happened and we still don't have all the facts. Politicians on both sides are using it to their advantage. Extremists on both sides are making ridiculous assertions.


do you differentiate which side is calling for violence, making death threats, tweeting home addresses, raising bounties, calling for kidnapping, making dead or alive posters, and actually (obviously imo) exploiting the death .....from which side posted a photograph?

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:25 pm

Phatscotty wrote:do you differentiate which side is calling for violence, making death threats, tweeting home addresses, raising bounties, calling for kidnapping, making dead or alive posters, and actually (obviously imo) exploiting the death .....from which side posted a photograph?


A person engaged in an ideological struggle will perceive the event as a battle between two "sides." This could be good vs. evil, left vs. right, right vs. wrong, etc. He may respond to attacks against his side by counter-accusations [e.g. "racist!"], or, by initiating a parade of horribles to showcase the net moral superiority of his side. For the extremist, the goal is to leverage the event to capture power centers for his camp or side.

A person engaged in a situational debate is only concerned with the immediate facts of the case and doesn't perceive a battle of "sides" but a debate between a variety of actors, each with a unique perspective. For the moderate, there aren't two camps representing a clash of cultural values, but a variety of pieces moving independently on the board. The event can be understood by itself, without reference to other events.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:28 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:do you differentiate which side is calling for violence, making death threats, tweeting home addresses, raising bounties, calling for kidnapping, making dead or alive posters, and actually (obviously imo) exploiting the death .....from which side posted a photograph?


A person engaged in an ideological struggle will perceive the event as a battle between two "sides." This could be good vs. evil, left vs. right, right vs. wrong, etc. He may respond to attacks against his side by counter-accusations [e.g. "racist!"], or, by initiating a parade of horribles to showcase the net moral superiority of his side. For the extremist, the goal is to leverage the event to capture power centers for his camp or side.

A person engaged in a situational debate is only concerned with the immediate facts of the case and doesn't perceive a battle of "sides" but a debate between multilateral actors, each with a unique perspective. For the moderate, there aren't two camps representing a clash of cultural values, but a variety of pieces moving independently on the board. The event exists independently of other events.


haha saxi. All this side stuff started with YOU! Greek ran with it. Of course this is all about the Zimmerman side and the Trayvon side, is it not? I tried to be careful to point out when i thought something compared to when we know something, and many other people are policing that as well. We have some waiting to do and time to fill until April 10th.



There are always 3 sides to every story. One person's side, the other person's side, and the truth's side.

Also wanted to throw these in here (2 different sides :twisted: )


Last edited by Phatscotty on Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin: More Evidence Released

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:36 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:do you differentiate which side is calling for violence, making death threats, tweeting home addresses, raising bounties, calling for kidnapping, making dead or alive posters, and actually (obviously imo) exploiting the death .....from which side posted a photograph?


A person engaged in an ideological struggle will perceive the event as a battle between two "sides." This could be good vs. evil, left vs. right, right vs. wrong, etc. He may respond to attacks against his side by counter-accusations [e.g. "racist!"], or, by initiating a parade of horribles to showcase the net moral superiority of his side. For the extremist, the goal is to leverage the event to capture power centers for his camp or side.

A person engaged in a situational debate is only concerned with the immediate facts of the case and doesn't perceive a battle of "sides" but a debate between multilateral actors, each with a unique perspective. For the moderate, there aren't two camps representing a clash of cultural values, but a variety of pieces moving independently on the board. The event exists independently of other events.


haha saxi. All this side stuff started with YOU! Greek ran with it. Of course this is all about the Zimmerman side and the Trayvon side, is it not?


I don't perceive the existence of two sides. I perceive a large number of pieces moving independently of each other. For instance, (1) the Black Panthers have offered a bounty. (2) Martin's parents say they don't want extrajudicial punishment and reject the Black Panthers but want Zimmerman arrested. (3) I say I think Zimmerman shouldn't be charged with a crime at all but he should be publicly shamed and held to account in a civil trial. (4) Patches believes [I think] Zimmerman was justified. (5) BvP [as far as I can tell] seems undecided. I perceive at least 5 different actors moving moving independently of each other and, I assume, there are a large number in addition to that.

    For the extremist, these can all be divided into two neat camps, one of which is right and one of which is wrong. The struggle is an ageless ideological war between two competing worldviews and the actual event is just one episode in that struggle. For me the event is the totality of struggle and exists independently of any other event that has occurred before, or will occur after.
Again, though, this is just to identify you, NS, VO, Natty and Aradhus as extremists (on this issue). It's not to say the extremist approach is wrong or bad. "Bad" is not a synonym of "extremist" when I check the thesaurus.
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