SultanOfSurreal

[MaleAlphaThree]

I don't know why people had to sack down so far as to come up with a "God" that can do anything, AND everything. Not that it's hard to imagine, whatsoever, it's just that I would have been fine with one that was simply really good at one thing (like in the good old days of popular polytheism etc.). Like Zeus, king of the gods, Zeus is someone you can believe in because you can relate to him: he was a horny bastard and he was captain master ass kicker. What man wouldn't want to pray to a statue of this masculine MFer? No man that didn't want his ass kicked by real men, that's who. The Z masta knew what was what.*

But "God"? A name that is just a proper noun version of a noun? I not so sure....
Infinite power, infinite life, infinite knowledge, infinite pretty much anything else that humans strive for.... sounds kind of like a living hell to me. From what I can imagine (since I am only a man, and have the dreams/imagination of a fairly standard man), I would be bored to tears with all that influence on the universe. Just take a look at Q from Star Trek: TNG, he skips around the universe just trying to find some good entertainment worthy of a god, and yet he hardly seems satisfied with whatever it is he does find. The best thing he can come up with is keeping the universe from being destroyed by meddling yahoos of all different species, and toying around with those yahoos in between existence-ending prevention activities.

Dr. Manhattan seems pretty miserable too, for a blue super being. What with not even being able to really.... do anything. As far as his psychology goes, anyway. Even The Doctor [Who] spends his time keeping Earth from falling into oblivion by every means possible +1.


Let's explore my interpretation of the mental state of "God", shall we?
Let's start fresh, like I was just born yesterday, but I have the capabilities of my adult mind.... that's what I interpret to be the best way any of us can get to imagining being "God". Pure minded (untainted by the human experience), but highly intelligent at the same time (some of you may not qualify for one or either of these ).

(Let me guess, the mental state of "God" is unknowable and therefore a moot topic, right? Well, let's just humor me for the purpose of understanding this entity better, please. This entity that "anybody who's anybody" seems to love so damn much, and is "completely attached to in every way possible". (psst, your weewee is attached to him too, better get that checked out))


First: What is there to do when you're immortal / infallible / invincible? First thing I would want to do, personally, is learn everything I possibly can about everything so that I can make sure I stay that way. Kind of like Dorian Gray, without the homicidal tendencies.

Wait, I'm already omniscient so I know everything that there ever was, is, will be, and why. Goddamn, if I say so myself.... this is starting to look pretty bleak. Suppose I should increase my power, that's always fun.

Huh? I'm already omnipotent? Well, doesn't that beat all? OK, then I guess I'll build some crap to pass the time.

Oh, I built everything already. Not only did I build everything, but I built it so that everything that is ever going to happen will happen in exactly one way, absolutely nothing is random, and I already know everything about it anyway, so it can pretty much run on its own for an extremely long time (eternity?) without my messing with it. As long as I exist, it will exist. After all, I'm infallible. Maybe I'll throw in a few loose strings like miracles, maybe not. Maybe I'll incarnate myself / have a human son (cause humans are sPeCiAl), maybe I won't. Maybe people will take everything in the world / everything I do too seriously..... yeah, they'll definitely do that.

I know! Maybe if I just go to sleep / tinker around with another part of the universe / stop existing / never existed in the first place / don't ever do shit something interesting will happen that I won't be able to know already / predict / do myself / already create. That should be fun! I think that will be the most fun since I popped into existence / created everything / learned everything about everything in about a week (Earth time).

Gee, who / what created me, where did I come from, and/or what the heck am I technically? Hah, that's silly, why would I ask myself questions when I already know the answers to everything!
Gee, I can't seem to stop this Satan character from doing whatever the hell he wants.
Gee, I can't seem to stop ANYONE from doing whatever the hell they want!
Gee, I sure don't like that! I can still KILL EVERYTHING ON THE WHOLE FUCKING PLANET. (e.g. great flood)
Gee, that certainly was nice. I'm a good guy, I'm sure everyone will agree.
Everyone being all the animals on the boat (humans are animals too, just FYI).

Woo wee! That was exciting, what with not being omniscient, omnipotent, or infallible for a while there. Hm, curious....


And that, my peers, should lead you, by the nose, to the conclusion that makes me a "Godless Heathen". That at least the Lord of the Rings was consistent with it's mythology, and had a third book to wrap things up.

Who cares about theoretical/philosophical question loops like "if you can do everything, including the impossible, can you make something that is impossible for you to do?**" Having faith is by definition (number 2) believing something that doesn't have to be real, be factual, be right, or even make any sense at all. Why do you think they put faith on such a high pedestal? Because it keeps you in line, on your knees praying, and paying a local church kindly so that they can pay off the loans on all those nice looking bricks they build churches out of these days. Sounds like MY kind of club.



*Be careful not to get punched in the face by the statue's raging erection when you bow down to pray to it. No one said worshiping a bad ass god wasn't dangerous.

**The easy answer to that question is that I would create an alternate reality in which I am unable to do something, enter that reality, attempt to do that something, fail.... and return quickly to the reality where I am all powerful before anyone realizes that I'm proving a mind twister question wrong. I'd be fast because someone would probably try to kill me or something. If we learned anything from the story of Jesus, it's that when people learn you have anything to do with a higher power, you gotta GTFO or get your ass handed to you anyone, AND everyone, that's jealous of that power.

[MaleAlphaThree]

Interesting observation I just remembered and/or realized for the first time: maybe becoming human was the only way "God" could think of to die that would be any fun. Maybe "God" was suicidal because he was so damn bored.... bored to death. Maybe when Jesus was killed, "God" totally died right there and then. Maybe all that "Rapture" and "Return of Christ" stuff was just to lead us on into our own independence of mind, and to just grow the hell up already. Made in "His" image my foot, humans are dumb, dirty animals and we're going to keep being dumb dirty animals for a very long time (not eternity?). I know this, because I AM one.

[InkL0sed]

Wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon

Those are hypothetical particles though... I'm just delaying the issue, I guess.

The problem here is the concept of "infinity". There is no physical phenomenon that fits the description of "infinite". To say that God is omnipotent means that there is nothing he cannot do. So by the very definition of omnipotent, God could not heat a burrito too hot to eat because that would mean He was incapable of performing an act. It's not the fact that God is limited, it's the fact that God is unlimited that makes it a logical impossibility.

They exist. I've seen one.

[xelabale]

Whoa one just went right through me!! Bloody hell. I was nearly hit by dark matter last week, now this...

[Juan_Bottom]

jaun my GF is named amber

What are her likes?

she likes hiking, phisics,outdoors, and she loves law enforcement

Oh. Does she have any sisters?

Kind of like Dorian Gray, without the homicidal tendencies.

lol what?

Nice to see you participating MA3. For those of you who don't know him, this guy is going to rock your f-ing socks off. This is what happens when Abe Lincoln, Megatron, Winston Churchill, Joan Jet, and Duke Nukem all have sex with each other.... you get an MA3.

That should be fun! I think that will be the most fun since I popped in existence / created everything / learned about everything in about a week (Earth time).

Gee, who / what created me, where did I come from, and/or what the heck am I technically? Hah, that's silly, why would I ask myself questions when I already know the answer to everything!
Gee, I can't seem to stop this Satan character from doing whatever the hell he wants.
Gee, I can't seem to stop ANYONE from doing whatever the hell they want!
Gee, I sure don't like that! I can still KILL EVERYTHING ON THE WHOLE FUCKING PLANET. (referencing the great flood)
Gee, that certainly was nice. I'm a good guy, I'm sure everyone will agree. Everyone being all the animals on the boat (humans are animals too, just FYI).

Woo wee! That was exciting, what with not being omniscient, omnipotent, or infallible for a while there. Hm, curious....

Come now, we all know that Satan is doing EXACTLY what GOD want's him to do. See, GOD created Satan directly... so Satan actually doesn't have free will. Because when GOD was making him she made him exactly that way. GOD WANTS YOU TO SUFFER! MUHAHAHAA!
Or GOD doesn't exist and the people writing this stuff didn't actually think about that.

[MaleAlphaThree]

Nice to see you participating MA3. For those of you who don't know him, this guy is going to rock your f-ing socks off. This is what happens when Abe Lincoln, Megatron, Winston Churchill, Joan Jet, and Duke Nukem all have sex with each other.... you get an MA3.

I prefer Abe Lincoln, Optimus Prime, Harry S. Truman, Joan Jet, and Gordon Freeman. But thanks for the gesture. You're pretty, damn cool too.

Come now, we all know that Satan is doing EXACTLY what GOD want's him to do. See, GOD created Satan directly... so Satan actually doesn't have free will. Because when GOD was making him she made him exactly that way. GOD WANTS YOU TO SUFFER! MUHAHAHAA!

Unfortunately, that creates a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation depending on what you think "God" is capable of (everything, everything and it's brother, or only near-everything). Not that the situation isn't commonly encountered with religions, it's just that the religious minded tend to decide on one thing and then blindly believe it, especially in the face of only slightly different options. The words you typed there will be perceived as poorly written Latin to the particularly faithful. It is too good of a point to even be accepted into their minds.

I'm testing to see if the "start from the beginning" type logic will allow someone to figure things out on their own, should they be capable of such a thought process.

[SultanOfSurreal]

okay this is getting way off topic, back to targetman question time

what is your position on abortion. please be specific and detailed.

[john9blue]

This thread is like a microcosm of most cults/religions around the world. It's a bunch of people convincing each other that they are right and the opposing viewpoint is ridiculous.

Guess what- if billions of people believe something, don't you think it might make a tad bit of sense? Get fucking real.

[Juan_Bottom]

This thread is like a microcosm of most cults/religions around the world. It's a bunch of people convincing each other that they are right and the opposing viewpoint is ridiculous.

Guess what- if billions of people believe something, don't you think it might make a tad bit of sense? Get fucking real.

Billions of people all believe billions of differen't things... so get your ass converting to all differen't religions.

Also, if all people believe in a GOD then why don't they act like it? I.E. if your a CChristion then your ONLY JOB is to be the best Christian that you can be. You should know every line of the bible... your house should be a church.... but no.... not gonna happen is it....

EDIT: Also, I think that we've already discussed this many times. Poeple are sheep. They'll believe whatever you lead them to believe. Nazism is the better example. Or religion is a good one too.....

what is your position on abortion. please be specific and detailed.

What is your girlfriend's sister opinion on abortion?

[john9blue]

Billions of people all believe billions of differen't things... so get your ass converting to all differen't religions.

Also, if all people believe in a GOD then why don't they act like it? I.E. if your a CChristion then your ONLY JOB is to be the best Christian that you can be. You should know every line of the bible... your house should be a church.... but no.... not gonna happen is it....

Who's converting?

Most viewpoints on almost any topic make at least a bit of sense. I can see where people of most major political parties and religions are coming from, and why they think what they do. And it's not because they are stupid.

It's idiotic to dismiss a certain viewpoint as ridiculous and start making fun of it when millions of people genuinely believe it. You're saying (well maybe not you, but Sultan here sure is) that those millions are idiots and shouldn't be listened to, or in his case, billions. What kind of self-centered asshole disrespects so many people's opinions like that?

[Juan_Bottom]

Oh.. well there is a difference between supporting somone's opinions, and supporting something they take as fact.

I mean, If you want to say... oh.... I dunno.... that you think that marriage should be between a man and a woman. I can disagree with that, but ultimatly it's your opinion so I respect it. I won't judge you for it.
But if you want to say "there is a GOD and it's the one from the Koran" well then it's open season idiot.

It's idiotic to dismiss a certain viewpoint as ridiculous and start making fun of it when millions of people genuinely believe it.

Depends. Millions of people still don't believe in evolution... doesn't meant that they are not all idiots. The fact of the matter is, this world is full of followers... we just weren't all made to be leaders.

I mean, at one point in time most people believed the world to be flat. Know why? They were all followers!

[john9blue]

I mean, If you want to say... oh.... I dunno.... that you think that marriage should be between a man and a woman. I can disagree with that, but ultimatly it's your opinion so I respect it. I won't judge you for it.
But if you want to say "there is a GOD and it's the one from the Koran" well then it's open season idiot.

What's the difference... both are beliefs. Maybe you think that "only an idiot would believe the Koran" but Muslims sure don't, and there are a lot of smart Muslims.

[Juan_Bottom]

What's the difference... both are beliefs.

Well you're not supporting the marraige thing with anything you are taking as fact. But you are with the Koran thing. You're showing me that you think the Koran is the proof.
If you say "marraige is between a man and a woman cause the bible says so" then I have to kick some butt.

It's subtle, but there is a difference.

[targetman377]

surreal on abortion i am personal against it. But do i see it going away no.and if some one wants to kill another than i am ok with that guess. but the real fight is not is it a womens choice i would say NO last time i cheeked it takes more than a women to make a baby so if the i think the dad and the women have to both be in a same boat and agree on getting abortion. but if one of them wants it they should keep it if the dad wants it then he gets to keep the kid and the mom does not if the mom wants it the and the dad does not the mom should get it.

[jonesthecurl]

Target, that was less coherent than you usually are.
I'm fairly used to your style, but it took me a moment.
Would you mind if I tried to rephrase it? Just so you don't get attacked for attitudes which are actually not yours, or mocked for incoherence?


Here is a summary of what I think you said:

Abortion- target is against.

Can we forbid abortion? - target thinks, despite his own moral opinion, the option to abort is not going away anytime soon.
Who decides? - target says there are TWO parents. Abortion should not be solely the woman's choice.

I would add (Me talking now, not target) - you haven't addressed cases where there are several possible fathers, where the mother is at risk, where the fetus is unlikely to survive to full term, or rape pregnancies, or a number of other issues.

[Iliad]

This thread is like a microcosm of most cults/religions around the world. It's a bunch of people convincing each other that they are right and the opposing viewpoint is ridiculous.

Guess what- if billions of people believe something, don't you think it might make a tad bit of sense? Get fucking real.

Many people thought the world was flat
Many people thought slavery was perfectly fine.
I can continue but you get the picture. Just because people believe in something, no matter how many, does not matter that belief is somehow more validated, or more likely to be true.

How many people share that belief, may be a reflection on the popularity of that belief, but definitely not the validity.

[b.k. barunt]

This thread is like a microcosm of most cults/religions around the world. It's a bunch of people convincing each other that they are right and the opposing viewpoint is ridiculous.

Guess what- if billions of people believe something, don't you think it might make a tad bit of sense? Get fucking real.

My son once asked me if Islam might have some truth since so many people followed it. My response to him was to use his grandparents (on my wife's side) as an example. They are Roman Catholic, and their hypocrisy and lack of any critical thinking skills have always been obvious to my son. I asked him if he thought that they were Catholic because they'd given serious thought to the matter, or rather because their family had always been Catholic - he quickly made the connection.

Guess what - if billions of people believe something, it means you have a large number of shitforbrains droids who will jump on the first bandwagon that someone waves at them from, and will never ever jump off into that great unknown. Go figure.


Honibaz

[xelabale]

True, but there are plenty of people who really believe and have thought it through. And that's ok. Could be Christianity, Islam, or even Conquerism, if people come to an informed decision, brilliant.

[john9blue]

I guess people didn't really understand what I was trying to say. If lots of people believe something, then their "version" of reality probably makes sense. Some philosophers think that we could be a bunch of brains in a vat hooked up to wires and that our perceptions are controlled by a gigantic computer. Some people think it's ridiculous, but guess what? It makes sense.

If only a few people believe something, then accusing them of not using their mental faculties might be more accurate. But most religions have many, many followers whose logical perception of the world is fully compatible with their religion. If we were not told that the world was round, and hadn't seen pictures or seen the curvature of the earth on an airplane, we very well might think that it was flat. We wouldn't be stupid, though.

[xelabale]

I guess people didn't really understand what I was trying to say. If lots of people believe something, then their "version" of reality probably makes sense. Some philosophers think that we could be a bunch of brains in a vat hooked up to wires and that our perceptions are controlled by a gigantic computer. Some people think it's ridiculous, but guess what? It makes sense.

If only a few people believe something, then accusing them of not using their mental faculties might be more accurate. But most religions have many, many followers whose logical perception of the world is fully compatible with their religion. If we were not told that the world was round, and hadn't seen pictures or seen the curvature of the earth on an airplane, we very well might think that it was flat. We wouldn't be stupid, though.

I think I know what you're saying. Within their context it makes sense and is logical, even though it may not be right - is that it?

I disagree with the 2nd paragraph though. As was pointed out before, the number of people who believe in something has no effect on the validity of a belief. Just because only a few people beieve in something, it is still fine, and potentially logical. It can (and probably will be) argued that it is these minority thinkers who have the most potential to help and improve society, precisely because they are free thinkers.

[SultanOfSurreal]

I guess people didn't really understand what I was trying to say. If lots of people believe something, then their "version" of reality probably makes sense. Some philosophers think that we could be a bunch of brains in a vat hooked up to wires and that our perceptions are controlled by a gigantic computer. Some people think it's ridiculous, but guess what? It makes sense.

If only a few people believe something, then accusing them of not using their mental faculties might be more accurate. But most religions have many, many followers whose logical perception of the world is fully compatible with their religion. If we were not told that the world was round, and hadn't seen pictures or seen the curvature of the earth on an airplane, we very well might think that it was flat. We wouldn't be stupid, though.

sweet merciful christ you are awful

i mean...

jesus

edit: no seriously. this is the stupidest goddamn thing i've ever read here, and in just two weeks i've seen claims that a scientific theory involving god is not just possible, but self-evidently correct; people defending torture; people writing off an entire trial's worth of sworn testimony in favor of a 20 minute jailhouse interview; arguments that there exists no such thing as "international law"; and the unstoppable, logic-mangling freight train to hell that is targetman's posting history.

but this takes the cake. congrats.

[Haggis_McMutton]

This thread is like a microcosm of most cults/religions around the world. It's a bunch of people convincing each other that they are right and the opposing viewpoint is ridiculous.

Guess what- if billions of people believe something, don't you think it might make a tad bit of sense? Get fucking real.

Wow. I am speechless, i think i've finally found an argument even worse than Pascal's Wager. Impressive to say the least.

A lot of people say this, therefore it must be somewhat true, brilliant.

Well, I'm off to bury the shards of the mirror i broke under the full moon(you know, so that the evil spirits don't profit of my incomplete soul to bring me bad luck), just to be sure I'd better have my fortune read in some goat intestines too.

[Neoteny]

I guess people didn't really understand what I was trying to say. If lots of people believe something, then their "version" of reality probably makes sense. Some philosophers think that we could be a bunch of brains in a vat hooked up to wires and that our perceptions are controlled by a gigantic computer. Some people think it's ridiculous, but guess what? It makes sense.

If only a few people believe something, then accusing them of not using their mental faculties might be more accurate. But most religions have many, many followers whose logical perception of the world is fully compatible with their religion. If we were not told that the world was round, and hadn't seen pictures or seen the curvature of the earth on an airplane, we very well might think that it was flat. We wouldn't be stupid, though.

sweet merciful christ you are awful

i mean...

jesus

edit: no seriously. this is the stupidest goddamn thing i've ever read here, and in just two weeks i've seen claims that a scientific theory involving god is not just possible, but self-evidently correct; people defending torture; people writing off an entire trial's worth of sworn testimony in favor of a 20 minute jailhouse interview; arguments that there exists no such thing as "international law"; and the unstoppable, logic-mangling freight train to hell that is targetman's posting history.

but this takes the cake. congrats.

That, sir, is worth sigging.

EDIT: Alas, it is 100% too long.

[Snorri1234]

I guess people didn't really understand what I was trying to say. If lots of people believe something, then their "version" of reality probably makes sense. Some philosophers think that we could be a bunch of brains in a vat hooked up to wires and that our perceptions are controlled by a gigantic computer. Some people think it's ridiculous, but guess what? It makes sense.

"makes sense" and "is possible" are not the same thing.

[john9blue]

Wow guys. Did anyone actually read what I wrote? Or are you trolling?