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Politics, the Green Party.

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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:57 pm

Frigidus wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:And don't think *They* aren't doing the same thing. The Moderate Democrat is dead. Leiberman, who had to run as an independent is retiring.


What's funny is that you seem to believe Obama is left-wing. Good Lord, he's almost a Republican. Then again, Ronald Reagan would probably be considered a Democrat today, if it were up to most conservatives.


I wish that the ridiculous 'Obama's a socialist' hand wringing had any merit to it, then I might feel somewhat politically represented. We need to work on reanimating FDR.


I never knew you liked Bush 2 foreign policy with a heavy helping of Soviet central planning.


Er...not sure what you mean. You think that there are aspects of Bush that are socialist? I mean, sure, he was "big government" in a lot of ways, but that doesn't make him a socialist.

Also, a bit less Soviet a little bit more Western European as far as what I'd be interested in seeing.


FDR and Bush were very warlike people. Both antagonized others to pick a fight with them.

FDR wanted to cartelize the US manufacturing industry, and many traditional services provided by the private sector, we wanted under the scope of government (which exemplifies what socialism actually is--you know, state ownership over the means of production). And even if outright ownership was not present, significant control can basically become de facto ownership--which you know was part-and-parcel of the New Deal and all those policies within that political climate.

You seem to have this fantasy view of FDR.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby spurgistan on Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:09 pm

No way, a fantasy view of a politician who created most of the programs Democrats are defending today? Color me surprised.

But yeah, the person we should have our political Drs. Frankenstein working on is Upton Sinclair.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:15 am

spurgistan wrote:No way, a fantasy view of a politician who created most of the programs Democrats are defending today? Color me surprised.

But yeah, the person we should have our political Drs. Frankenstein working on is Upton Sinclair.



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ONWARD! TO UTOPIA!!!
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:16 pm

U.S.' only Presidential Debate Scheduled for Tomorrow

The U.S.' only presidential debate will be held tomorrow at the Hilton Chicago, moderated by Larry King. The debate has a participation standard that allows any candidate who is on the ballot in at least 40 states to appear. Six candidates are qualified: Barack Obama (a former paralegal), Mitt Romney (ex Olympics emcee), Gary Johnson (ex Governor of New Mexico), Dr. Jill Stein, Rocky Anderson (ex Mayor of Salt Lake City) and Virgil Goode (former US Congressman). All except Obama and Romney have accepted the invitation.

The debate is sponsored by the following media outlets: The Nation, American Conservative, Ballot Access News, drudgereport.com, the Humboldt Sentinel and Pacifica Radio's KCSB-FM (Santa Barbara).

    The Republican and Democrat parties have demanded all broadcast media in the U.S. boycott the event and they have all complied. So - instead - it will be broadcast live by Voice of Russia and al-Jazeera and beamed into the U.S. Americans can huddle in dark closets, clutching shortwave radios, to hear the democratic broadcasts transmitted into their country from the free world; perhaps each household should post a lookout to watch for police vans driving by with radio wave detectors, though. Alternatively, it will be streamed live here:

    http://freeandequal.org/live/?utm_sourc ... dium=email

    Afterwards, viewers can vote online - using Instant Run-Off Voting - for the two candidates they feel performed best. Those two candidates will appear in a final debate in Washington on October 30, assuming a drone strike isn't called in on it.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:22 pm

saxitoxin wrote:U.S.' only Presidential Debate Scheduled for Tomorrow

The U.S.' only presidential debate will be held tomorrow at the Hilton Chicago, moderated by Larry King. The debate has a participation standard that allows any candidate who is on the ballot in at least 40 states to appear. Six candidates are qualified: former paralegal Barack Obama, former Olympics emcee Mitt Romney, former New Mexico governor Gary Johnson, noted physician Jill Stein, former Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson and former U.S. congressman Virgil Goode. All except Obama and Romney have accepted the invitation.

The debate is sponsored by the following media outlets: The Nation, American Conservative, Ballot Access News, drudgereport.com, the Humboldt Sentinel and Pacifica Radio's KCSB-FM (Santa Barbara).

    The Republican and Democrat parties have demanded all broadcast media in the U.S. boycott the event and they have all complied. So - instead - it will be broadcast live by Voice of Russia and al-Jazeera and beamed into the U.S. Americans can huddle in dark closets, clutching shortwave radios, to hear the democratic broadcasts transmitted into their country from the free world; perhaps each household should post a lookout to watch for police vans driving by with radio wave detectors, though. Alternatively, it will be streamed live here:

    http://freeandequal.org/live/?utm_sourc ... dium=email

    Afterwards, viewers can vote online - using Instant Run-Off Voting - for the two candidates they feel performed best. Those two candidates will appear in a final debate in Washington on October 30.


The comments below the website make me feel very happy: like the people berating the conservative mainstream Republican poster who referred to Obama as a socialist... by referring to his presidency as crony capitalism. It's like they read my mind.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:38 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:U.S.' only Presidential Debate Scheduled for Tomorrow

The U.S.' only presidential debate will be held tomorrow at the Hilton Chicago, moderated by Larry King. The debate has a participation standard that allows any candidate who is on the ballot in at least 40 states to appear. Six candidates are qualified: former paralegal Barack Obama, former Olympics emcee Mitt Romney, former New Mexico governor Gary Johnson, noted physician Jill Stein, former Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson and former U.S. congressman Virgil Goode. All except Obama and Romney have accepted the invitation.

The debate is sponsored by the following media outlets: The Nation, American Conservative, Ballot Access News, drudgereport.com, the Humboldt Sentinel and Pacifica Radio's KCSB-FM (Santa Barbara).

    The Republican and Democrat parties have demanded all broadcast media in the U.S. boycott the event and they have all complied. So - instead - it will be broadcast live by Voice of Russia and al-Jazeera and beamed into the U.S. Americans can huddle in dark closets, clutching shortwave radios, to hear the democratic broadcasts transmitted into their country from the free world; perhaps each household should post a lookout to watch for police vans driving by with radio wave detectors, though. Alternatively, it will be streamed live here:

    http://freeandequal.org/live/?utm_sourc ... dium=email

    Afterwards, viewers can vote online - using Instant Run-Off Voting - for the two candidates they feel performed best. Those two candidates will appear in a final debate in Washington on October 30.


The comments below the website make me feel very happy: like the people berating the conservative mainstream Republican poster who referred to Obama as a socialist... by referring to his presidency as crony capitalism. It's like they read my mind.


Maybe PLAYER and Phatscotty can attend, in order to tell everyone that they're stealing votes from the real candidates. You know...the ones who are too afraid to debate with these folks.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby GreecePwns on Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:39 pm

Romney flag-wavers: "A vote for Gary Johnson is a vote for Obama."
Obama flag-wavers: "A vote for Jill Stein is a vote for Romney."
What if each gets an equal vote count?

@ Saxi: Perhaps Romney declined remembering having been beaten by Stein in a 2002 debate for MA governor.

Also, its worth noting that an organized boycott of national sponsors of the CPD has so far succeeded in getting 3 of the 10 national sponsors to cut funding to the organization.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:39 am

Woodruff wrote: Maybe PLAYER and Phatscotty can attend, in order to tell everyone that they're stealing votes from the real candidates. You know...the ones who are too afraid to debate with these folks.

At this point, yes, they are.

The problem is that the focus on green party power, any kind of change has to happen LONG before the presidential election and at lower levels primarily.

But here is "the rest of the story" (to quote someone-- guess who :) ) .... Who was it that brought what is called "conservativism" today, but which really amounted to "let's pay people today to forget about tommorrow" (borrow from the Social Security Trust to balance the budget.. cut taxes to create a mini-boom, even while knowing it could not be sustained without serious and major cuts to services people actually want... etc). Reagan. What group or movement had a LOT to do with both Nixon and Reagan gaining power? (and ironically enough, in this narrow story, Nixon is not necessarily a bad guy) The war protesters, "hippies"... the actual and philisophical descendents of whom in the US became/brought the Green Party (of course the Party orginated essentially in Europe.. roots in Germany, in particular).

Why do people still, today, think that Huey was a terrorist in that shot of him shaking a gun on the steps of the Ca state capitol building in Sacramento?

The Green Party is not effecting positive change. To do that, they have to do what the conservatives have been doing for 40 years.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:24 pm

Here is an example of what I mean:

One of the ideas, voiced by the VP candidate is to end homelessness by hiring folks to restore/repair empty homes and then putting formerly homeless people into them. It sounds good, and in fact, many cities/localities do that on a small scale. However, the most basic problem is that most of the available housing is not located by the available jobs. Also, while the recent downturn/mortgage crisis have seen more people who really do just need a place to live, who otherwise are able to fend.. a LOT of the long-term homeless are homeless because of big problems. Just giving them a house doesn't solve anything. They may be ill, psycologically ill, be substance addicted or convicted criminals. We cannot ignore the issue for these reasons, cannot just say "they deserve to be there" (not effective for society, for one thing.. regardless of how much they do or do not "deserve" to be there). However, its far from as simple as saying "here.. you have a house, now your life should be OK". Do that and you might just find the place trashed, rather than a grateful tenant.


But, to back up, here are the platforms:
(note.. I took this from a summary, not the Green Party link itself, just because I did not want to be too lengthy. However, feel free to point out any errors.. I will be double and triple checking there myself)

The first plank of this platform is to guarantee economic rights for all Americans. This entails the right to a job at a living wage for every American willing and able to work. It also entails the right to quality education, health care, utilities, and housing as well as the right to unionize, to fair taxation and to fair trade.

This I believe.

Dr. Stein has what she calls a Full Employment Program which will create 16 million jobs through a community-based direct employment initiative that is nationally funded, locally controlled and democratically protected.

The link did not give details, so I am not going to comment at this moment.

controlled and democratically protected.

There are many rights Dr. Stein wants to honor, include a right to quality healthcare through an improved Medicare for All program and a right to tuition-free, quality public education from pre-school through college at public institutions (Jill Stein would forgive student loan debt left over from the current era of unaffordable college education and couple this debt forgiveness with a tuition-free higher education based on the model of the post World War II GI Bill).

We have universal education up through high school. All the candidates talk about making college more affordable and accessible, though there is some discussion of whether everyone should to to college or if other types of higher education are better for some. That can be a distorted or honest discussion, but the point is that all the candidates push this. They differ in how they would implement it, but the Green Party's plan (such as it is) is not as workable right now.

In fact, when I have gotten into details on this, what too many in the green party consider "good education" is as distorted or more than right winger ideas. Animal centrism passes for science, disdain for anything Western European or Christian religious passes for diversity and a kind of mamby-pamby self esteem promotion too often substitutes for demands. To be fair, that is likely not how all Green Party folks feel, but it IS how the many I encountered in CA felt and what I hear from public supporters of the party now.
Jill Stein believes that it is necessary to halt all foreclosures and evictions and then to create a federal bank with local branches which would take over homes with distressed mortgages. These mortgages could either be restructured to affordable levels, or, if the occupants cannot afford a mortgage, then the homes will be rented to the occupants.
"And a chicken in every pot...." Sounds nice, but halt all foreclosures and evictions.. really??? Some people do need to be evicted, some people do need to be foreclosed. Instead, I would like to see something no one has suggested.. specifically to make the banks at least as responsible for downturns in the housing market (obviously NOT anything do to damage -- insurance covers accidents/disasters and the owner covers damage they cause). Most people are nothing like experts in the real estate market. They essentially rely upon appraisers, who have a sort of "chicken and egg" relationship with bankerson setting prices. Basically, people will buy a house for the mortgage a bank will offer them. If the house loses value, then the bank still wants its money -- may even increase its demands because the loan is no longer "secured". Making the bank at least partially responsible for losses will force banks to be more responsible in the loans they issue. (something like 100% responsible for market only losses for the first year, 75% for the next 3 years, then 50% thereafter) That, and a smaller, careful plan to move some housing into the public sector. (again, that last is already being done in many places where it is practical).

Being an activist for the way the health of the environment affects the health of the person, and being a (presumably, the) Green Party candidate, Dr. Stein as president would redirect research money from fossil fuels and other ‘dead-end’ industries toward research in wind, solar and geothermal. Along with this, she would invest in research in sustainable, nontoxic materials, closed-loop cycles that eliminate waste and pollution, as well as organic agriculture, permaculture, and sustainable forestry.

Absolutely. This is the one area where the Green Party has credibility, but they keep talking about more esoteric things and not enough about real economic costs and local demands.

I will use the northwest coast woods as an example because its past and you can see what happened. Luna butterfly whatever's approach was to go sit in a tree for a year and hope to halt logging. To contrast, my approach, the approach of a LOT of local individuals was to quietly talk to land owners about stream protection, salmon, etc. We lobbied for protection of endangered species and found the data to do it.. etc. Several of my classmates were ex loggers. They were not "anti logging", but were sometimes anti big corporate logging practices.

Anyway, fast forward and Luna got some fame, wrote a book and I believe is still doing the lecture circuit. She is a hero to some, but is a laughing stock among many people who actually work with and make decisions about timber. She is a showperson, not really an effective worker. (and let's not forget the effort it took from others to allow her to make "her" stand.)
My former bosses, many people I went to school with are did, are now working in the field in various ways..sometimes advising companies, sometimes teaching, sometimes advising small land owners and sometimes working for the government (which may include any of those previously mentioned). They are not (most of them) selling books, but they are affecting real and daily change. Does Luna talk to them? DID she talk to them? No. She was a grandstander. She would talk to you if you admired her, supported her. Else.. you were just "wrong", a "sell out". Yet.. who do you really think protected more forest? The tree she sat on is gone. Many I worked on still stand. AND... a lot of those I talked to are now advocates FOR protection of streams. They don't have much respect for Luna Butterfly, though.

Sooo... even on this issue, the Green Party is partially effective, they are not nearly as effective as they could be if they were willingto look beyond their "ideals". Teh Democrats have actually accomplished a lot more. Obama is supporting alternative energy to a point (not as much as I would like, but what I would like won't happen tommorrow).

Addressing the financial sector, Jill Stein would restore Glass-Steagall, establish a 90% tax on bonuses for bailed out bankers, regulate financial derivatives, break up the big banks that are ‘too big to fail’ and nationalize the Federal Reserve.

This is legally a non-starter. Its like trying to say you want an abolitionist to be elected Governor of Mississippi in 1825, and that promoting such is the way to end slavery.

She would also put in place a Voter’s Bill of Rights that would guarantee us a voter-marked paper ballot for all voting and require that all votes are counted before election results are released. It would also replace partisan oversight of elections with non-partisan election commissions, make Election Day a national holiday and bring simplified, safe same-day voter registration to the nation.

Election day used to be a national holiday, but the emphasis on paper ballots is just backwards. Good electronic voting over an extended time period would be far easier and more effective in this day and age.

Paper ballots require in person counting.

With concern to the military and homeland security, Dr. Stein would repeal the PATRIOT Act and the parts of the NDAA that violate civil liberties. She would also call for a 50% reduction in military spending that includes the withdrawal of U.S. military bases from the over 140 countries in which our military is now located.
Yes, I would like the Patriot Act repealed. Not convinced she would actually do it even if she was elected... a lot of Presidents make that type of promise and then are not able to deliver because it is very much tied into power adn some other reasons. I don't know what parts of NDAA is meant, have to research more.

Per cutting the military by 50% and closing foreign bases.. NO! That is not the kind of heavy-handed and immediate change we want. That she makes this her platform, like many of the other points highlights what I mean by lack of realism and ability to compromise.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:28 pm

Jill Stein is a watermelon.

Green on the outside, and Communist Red on the inside.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:30 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Jill Stein is a watermelon.

Green on the outside, and Communist Red on the inside.

I think I would have more respect for her if she actually WERE Communist. (not agreement, just respect)
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:36 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Jill Stein is a watermelon.

Green on the outside, and Communist Red on the inside.

I think I would have more respect for her if she actually WERE Communist. (not agreement, just respect)


I respect that statement of yours, but my respect for her disastrous ideas would still remain low.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:01 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Jill Stein is a watermelon.

Green on the outside, and Communist Red on the inside.

I think I would have more respect for her if she actually WERE Communist. (not agreement, just respect)


I respect that statement of yours, but my respect for her disastrous ideas would still remain low.

She bothers me more because some (not all) of her ideas really do need implementation, but the political Green Party phrases them so poorly generally that they actually detract from the argument instead of adding to them.

The "green party" would be more effective if they stopped pretense of being a political party and instead promoted themselves as a liberal think tank. Then they could present whatever ideas they wish without any regard to whether they are currently practical or not.. and leave the getting there practicality to people willing to do the work to accomplish that.

That said, there are some wonderful speakers associated with the Green Party. But too many stop there. They make nice speeches, but fall short in offering practical ideas to acomplish things. (or, more to the point, the ideas they suggest are not effective, often do more harm than good.. like monkey wrenching instead of discussion, etc.).
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:06 pm

GreecePwns wrote:Romney flag-wavers: "A vote for Gary Johnson is a vote for Obama."
Obama flag-wavers: "A vote for Jill Stein is a vote for Romney."
What if each gets an equal vote count?

Sort of what the Repubs and Dems want.. to take the idealists out and have less friction/discussion when the real platforms are being framed (which, of course, s LONG before anyone is nominated!).
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby Woodruff on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:39 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Here is an example of what I mean:

One of the ideas, voiced by the VP candidate is to end homelessness by hiring folks to restore/repair empty homes and then putting formerly homeless people into them. It sounds good, and in fact, many cities/localities do that on a small scale. However, the most basic problem is that most of the available housing is not located by the available jobs. Also, while the recent downturn/mortgage crisis have seen more people who really do just need a place to live, who otherwise are able to fend.. a LOT of the long-term homeless are homeless because of big problems. Just giving them a house doesn't solve anything. They may be ill, psycologically ill, be substance addicted or convicted criminals. We cannot ignore the issue for these reasons, cannot just say "they deserve to be there" (not effective for society, for one thing.. regardless of how much they do or do not "deserve" to be there). However, its far from as simple as saying "here.. you have a house, now your life should be OK". Do that and you might just find the place trashed, rather than a grateful tenant.


But, to back up, here are the platforms:
(note.. I took this from a summary, not the Green Party link itself, just because I did not want to be too lengthy. However, feel free to point out any errors.. I will be double and triple checking there myself)

The first plank of this platform is to guarantee economic rights for all Americans. This entails the right to a job at a living wage for every American willing and able to work. It also entails the right to quality education, health care, utilities, and housing as well as the right to unionize, to fair taxation and to fair trade.

This I believe.

Dr. Stein has what she calls a Full Employment Program which will create 16 million jobs through a community-based direct employment initiative that is nationally funded, locally controlled and democratically protected.

The link did not give details, so I am not going to comment at this moment.

controlled and democratically protected.

There are many rights Dr. Stein wants to honor, include a right to quality healthcare through an improved Medicare for All program and a right to tuition-free, quality public education from pre-school through college at public institutions (Jill Stein would forgive student loan debt left over from the current era of unaffordable college education and couple this debt forgiveness with a tuition-free higher education based on the model of the post World War II GI Bill).

We have universal education up through high school. All the candidates talk about making college more affordable and accessible, though there is some discussion of whether everyone should to to college or if other types of higher education are better for some. That can be a distorted or honest discussion, but the point is that all the candidates push this. They differ in how they would implement it, but the Green Party's plan (such as it is) is not as workable right now.

In fact, when I have gotten into details on this, what too many in the green party consider "good education" is as distorted or more than right winger ideas. Animal centrism passes for science, disdain for anything Western European or Christian religious passes for diversity and a kind of mamby-pamby self esteem promotion too often substitutes for demands. To be fair, that is likely not how all Green Party folks feel, but it IS how the many I encountered in CA felt and what I hear from public supporters of the party now.
Jill Stein believes that it is necessary to halt all foreclosures and evictions and then to create a federal bank with local branches which would take over homes with distressed mortgages. These mortgages could either be restructured to affordable levels, or, if the occupants cannot afford a mortgage, then the homes will be rented to the occupants.
"And a chicken in every pot...." Sounds nice, but halt all foreclosures and evictions.. really??? Some people do need to be evicted, some people do need to be foreclosed. Instead, I would like to see something no one has suggested.. specifically to make the banks at least as responsible for downturns in the housing market (obviously NOT anything do to damage -- insurance covers accidents/disasters and the owner covers damage they cause). Most people are nothing like experts in the real estate market. They essentially rely upon appraisers, who have a sort of "chicken and egg" relationship with bankerson setting prices. Basically, people will buy a house for the mortgage a bank will offer them. If the house loses value, then the bank still wants its money -- may even increase its demands because the loan is no longer "secured". Making the bank at least partially responsible for losses will force banks to be more responsible in the loans they issue. (something like 100% responsible for market only losses for the first year, 75% for the next 3 years, then 50% thereafter) That, and a smaller, careful plan to move some housing into the public sector. (again, that last is already being done in many places where it is practical).

Being an activist for the way the health of the environment affects the health of the person, and being a (presumably, the) Green Party candidate, Dr. Stein as president would redirect research money from fossil fuels and other ‘dead-end’ industries toward research in wind, solar and geothermal. Along with this, she would invest in research in sustainable, nontoxic materials, closed-loop cycles that eliminate waste and pollution, as well as organic agriculture, permaculture, and sustainable forestry.

Absolutely. This is the one area where the Green Party has credibility, but they keep talking about more esoteric things and not enough about real economic costs and local demands.

I will use the northwest coast woods as an example because its past and you can see what happened. Luna butterfly whatever's approach was to go sit in a tree for a year and hope to halt logging. To contrast, my approach, the approach of a LOT of local individuals was to quietly talk to land owners about stream protection, salmon, etc. We lobbied for protection of endangered species and found the data to do it.. etc. Several of my classmates were ex loggers. They were not "anti logging", but were sometimes anti big corporate logging practices.

Anyway, fast forward and Luna got some fame, wrote a book and I believe is still doing the lecture circuit. She is a hero to some, but is a laughing stock among many people who actually work with and make decisions about timber. She is a showperson, not really an effective worker. (and let's not forget the effort it took from others to allow her to make "her" stand.)
My former bosses, many people I went to school with are did, are now working in the field in various ways..sometimes advising companies, sometimes teaching, sometimes advising small land owners and sometimes working for the government (which may include any of those previously mentioned). They are not (most of them) selling books, but they are affecting real and daily change. Does Luna talk to them? DID she talk to them? No. She was a grandstander. She would talk to you if you admired her, supported her. Else.. you were just "wrong", a "sell out". Yet.. who do you really think protected more forest? The tree she sat on is gone. Many I worked on still stand. AND... a lot of those I talked to are now advocates FOR protection of streams. They don't have much respect for Luna Butterfly, though.

Sooo... even on this issue, the Green Party is partially effective, they are not nearly as effective as they could be if they were willingto look beyond their "ideals". Teh Democrats have actually accomplished a lot more. Obama is supporting alternative energy to a point (not as much as I would like, but what I would like won't happen tommorrow).

Addressing the financial sector, Jill Stein would restore Glass-Steagall, establish a 90% tax on bonuses for bailed out bankers, regulate financial derivatives, break up the big banks that are ‘too big to fail’ and nationalize the Federal Reserve.

This is legally a non-starter. Its like trying to say you want an abolitionist to be elected Governor of Mississippi in 1825, and that promoting such is the way to end slavery.

She would also put in place a Voter’s Bill of Rights that would guarantee us a voter-marked paper ballot for all voting and require that all votes are counted before election results are released. It would also replace partisan oversight of elections with non-partisan election commissions, make Election Day a national holiday and bring simplified, safe same-day voter registration to the nation.

Election day used to be a national holiday, but the emphasis on paper ballots is just backwards. Good electronic voting over an extended time period would be far easier and more effective in this day and age.

Paper ballots require in person counting.

With concern to the military and homeland security, Dr. Stein would repeal the PATRIOT Act and the parts of the NDAA that violate civil liberties. She would also call for a 50% reduction in military spending that includes the withdrawal of U.S. military bases from the over 140 countries in which our military is now located.
Yes, I would like the Patriot Act repealed. Not convinced she would actually do it even if she was elected... a lot of Presidents make that type of promise and then are not able to deliver because it is very much tied into power adn some other reasons. I don't know what parts of NDAA is meant, have to research more.

Per cutting the military by 50% and closing foreign bases.. NO! That is not the kind of heavy-handed and immediate change we want. That she makes this her platform, like many of the other points highlights what I mean by lack of realism and ability to compromise.


Here, PLAYER reveals that she doesn't actually agree with the Green Party and is, in fact, just another Democratic shill who used to voice Green Party rhetoric because she wanted to sound like she was actually in favor of helping people.

You don't even know what parts of the NDAA are a problem? Good Lord.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:06 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:The Green Party puts forward a whole platform of idealistic, non-workable ideas.


Which of their ideas are "non-workable?"

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=179904&start=45


From 1776-2001 there was no Patriot Act. Ending it is "un-workable"?

I don't believe I said it was.

saxitoxin wrote:From 1776-Present Day (in many places) elections were/are held with paper ballots. Reintroducing/maintaining them is "un-workable"?

Another point I never made. I did, however say it is not effective. Like how we no longer drive with horses and buggies.

saxitoxin wrote:Making election day a national holiday is "un-workable?"

hmm.. and yet it seems I said this was a NICE IDEA. However, having an extended voting regime is better in today's day and age, with today's technology.
saxitoxin wrote:Ending fossil fuel subsidies is "un-workable"?

Definitely did not say this. In fact, I said that the Green party has not been effectively promoting this very valid cause.. and instead has actually faught Obama on some minor disagreements over which alternative energy is best, rather than encouraging research on most/all to find out which will really work best and where.
saxitoxin wrote:Until 2001 the U.S. didn't slaughter children with Hellfire missiles. Stopping slaughtering them is "un-workable"?

Correct, they used Napalm, bombs, pollution, donated textbooks, etc.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:07 pm

Woodruff wrote:You don't even know what parts of the NDAA are a problem? Good Lord.
Uh, no. I don't know what the Green Party is going to address or how.
Since in that link they did not clarify specifically, and there was nothing on the Party website.. yeah, I declined to say I would either agree or disagree with their plans.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:16 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:The Green Party puts forward a whole platform of idealistic, non-workable ideas.


Which of their ideas are "non-workable?"

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=179904&start=45


From 1776-2001 there was no Patriot Act. Ending it is "un-workable"?

I don't believe I said it was.

saxitoxin wrote:From 1776-Present Day (in many places) elections were/are held with paper ballots. Reintroducing/maintaining them is "un-workable"?

Another point I never made. I did, however say it is not effective. Like how we no longer drive with horses and buggies.

saxitoxin wrote:Making election day a national holiday is "un-workable?"

hmm.. and yet it seems I said this was a NICE IDEA. However, having an extended voting regime is better in today's day and age, with today's technology.
saxitoxin wrote:Ending fossil fuel subsidies is "un-workable"?

Definitely did not say this. In fact, I said that the Green party has not been effectively promoting this very valid cause.. and instead has actually faught Obama on some minor disagreements over which alternative energy is best, rather than encouraging research on most/all to find out which will really work best and where.
saxitoxin wrote:Until 2001 the U.S. didn't slaughter children with Hellfire missiles. Stopping slaughtering them is "un-workable"?

Correct, they used Napalm, bombs, pollution, donated textbooks, etc.


response posted back in the original thread in which you made the erroneous statement
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:20 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:The Green Party puts forward a whole platform of idealistic, non-workable ideas.


Which of their ideas are "non-workable?"

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=179904&start=45


From 1776-2001 there was no Patriot Act. Ending it is "un-workable"?

I don't believe I said it was.

saxitoxin wrote:From 1776-Present Day (in many places) elections were/are held with paper ballots. Reintroducing/maintaining them is "un-workable"?

Another point I never made. I did, however say it is not effective. Like how we no longer drive with horses and buggies.

saxitoxin wrote:Making election day a national holiday is "un-workable?"

hmm.. and yet it seems I said this was a NICE IDEA. However, having an extended voting regime is better in today's day and age, with today's technology.
saxitoxin wrote:Ending fossil fuel subsidies is "un-workable"?

Definitely did not say this. In fact, I said that the Green party has not been effectively promoting this very valid cause.. and instead has actually faught Obama on some minor disagreements over which alternative energy is best, rather than encouraging research on most/all to find out which will really work best and where.
saxitoxin wrote:Until 2001 the U.S. didn't slaughter children with Hellfire missiles. Stopping slaughtering them is "un-workable"?

Correct, they used Napalm, bombs, pollution, donated textbooks, etc.


You said all the Green Party's ideas were "unworkable." I asked you to list them. You provided a link to a 30-page post you made. Above is what you said in your post. You're now saying you didn't mean for that post to be construed as itemizing "unworkable" ideas.

Once again, which of the Green Party's ideas are "unworkable?"
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:22 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Here, PLAYER reveals that she doesn't actually agree with the Green Party and is, in fact, just another Democratic shill who used to voice Green Party rhetoric because she wanted to sound like she was actually in favor of helping people.


Let's compare notes

You -- worked for the military for years, even teach ROTC in your local school, but are an avid Green Party supporter even though the Green Party is anti-military in a big way.


Me-- worked in natural resources for years, on restoration and environmental education as well as research. I had to leave one job because I would not lie about data (of course not the official reason). (not posting all of it here, too bad). I am currently working on revising curriculum standards and some other projects that I don't want to get into on the internet yet.

Yet, because I don't want to waste my vote on an ineffective party and am utterly disgusted by the lack of sense by that party, even if I agree with some of their major stances (NOT all!)..I am a sell out?

OK.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:23 pm

How does the Democratic Party support those policies which you've supported from the Green Party?
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby MegaProphet on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:36 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Here is an example of what I mean:

One of the ideas, voiced by the VP candidate is to end homelessness by hiring folks to restore/repair empty homes and then putting formerly homeless people into them. It sounds good, and in fact, many cities/localities do that on a small scale. However, the most basic problem is that most of the available housing is not located by the available jobs. Also, while the recent downturn/mortgage crisis have seen more people who really do just need a place to live, who otherwise are able to fend.. a LOT of the long-term homeless are homeless because of big problems. Just giving them a house doesn't solve anything. They may be ill, psycologically ill, be substance addicted or convicted criminals. We cannot ignore the issue for these reasons, cannot just say "they deserve to be there" (not effective for society, for one thing.. regardless of how much they do or do not "deserve" to be there). However, its far from as simple as saying "here.. you have a house, now your life should be OK". Do that and you might just find the place trashed, rather than a grateful tenant.


But, to back up, here are the platforms:
(note.. I took this from a summary, not the Green Party link itself, just because I did not want to be too lengthy. However, feel free to point out any errors.. I will be double and triple checking there myself)

The first plank of this platform is to guarantee economic rights for all Americans. This entails the right to a job at a living wage for every American willing and able to work. It also entails the right to quality education, health care, utilities, and housing as well as the right to unionize, to fair taxation and to fair trade.

This I believe.

Dr. Stein has what she calls a Full Employment Program which will create 16 million jobs through a community-based direct employment initiative that is nationally funded, locally controlled and democratically protected.

The link did not give details, so I am not going to comment at this moment.

controlled and democratically protected.

There are many rights Dr. Stein wants to honor, include a right to quality healthcare through an improved Medicare for All program and a right to tuition-free, quality public education from pre-school through college at public institutions (Jill Stein would forgive student loan debt left over from the current era of unaffordable college education and couple this debt forgiveness with a tuition-free higher education based on the model of the post World War II GI Bill).

We have universal education up through high school. All the candidates talk about making college more affordable and accessible, though there is some discussion of whether everyone should to to college or if other types of higher education are better for some. That can be a distorted or honest discussion, but the point is that all the candidates push this. They differ in how they would implement it, but the Green Party's plan (such as it is) is not as workable right now.

In fact, when I have gotten into details on this, what too many in the green party consider "good education" is as distorted or more than right winger ideas. Animal centrism passes for science, disdain for anything Western European or Christian religious passes for diversity and a kind of mamby-pamby self esteem promotion too often substitutes for demands. To be fair, that is likely not how all Green Party folks feel, but it IS how the many I encountered in CA felt and what I hear from public supporters of the party now.
Jill Stein believes that it is necessary to halt all foreclosures and evictions and then to create a federal bank with local branches which would take over homes with distressed mortgages. These mortgages could either be restructured to affordable levels, or, if the occupants cannot afford a mortgage, then the homes will be rented to the occupants.
"And a chicken in every pot...." Sounds nice, but halt all foreclosures and evictions.. really??? Some people do need to be evicted, some people do need to be foreclosed. Instead, I would like to see something no one has suggested.. specifically to make the banks at least as responsible for downturns in the housing market (obviously NOT anything do to damage -- insurance covers accidents/disasters and the owner covers damage they cause). Most people are nothing like experts in the real estate market. They essentially rely upon appraisers, who have a sort of "chicken and egg" relationship with bankerson setting prices. Basically, people will buy a house for the mortgage a bank will offer them. If the house loses value, then the bank still wants its money -- may even increase its demands because the loan is no longer "secured". Making the bank at least partially responsible for losses will force banks to be more responsible in the loans they issue. (something like 100% responsible for market only losses for the first year, 75% for the next 3 years, then 50% thereafter) That, and a smaller, careful plan to move some housing into the public sector. (again, that last is already being done in many places where it is practical).

Being an activist for the way the health of the environment affects the health of the person, and being a (presumably, the) Green Party candidate, Dr. Stein as president would redirect research money from fossil fuels and other ‘dead-end’ industries toward research in wind, solar and geothermal. Along with this, she would invest in research in sustainable, nontoxic materials, closed-loop cycles that eliminate waste and pollution, as well as organic agriculture, permaculture, and sustainable forestry.

Absolutely. This is the one area where the Green Party has credibility, but they keep talking about more esoteric things and not enough about real economic costs and local demands.

I will use the northwest coast woods as an example because its past and you can see what happened. Luna butterfly whatever's approach was to go sit in a tree for a year and hope to halt logging. To contrast, my approach, the approach of a LOT of local individuals was to quietly talk to land owners about stream protection, salmon, etc. We lobbied for protection of endangered species and found the data to do it.. etc. Several of my classmates were ex loggers. They were not "anti logging", but were sometimes anti big corporate logging practices.

Anyway, fast forward and Luna got some fame, wrote a book and I believe is still doing the lecture circuit. She is a hero to some, but is a laughing stock among many people who actually work with and make decisions about timber. She is a showperson, not really an effective worker. (and let's not forget the effort it took from others to allow her to make "her" stand.)
My former bosses, many people I went to school with are did, are now working in the field in various ways..sometimes advising companies, sometimes teaching, sometimes advising small land owners and sometimes working for the government (which may include any of those previously mentioned). They are not (most of them) selling books, but they are affecting real and daily change. Does Luna talk to them? DID she talk to them? No. She was a grandstander. She would talk to you if you admired her, supported her. Else.. you were just "wrong", a "sell out". Yet.. who do you really think protected more forest? The tree she sat on is gone. Many I worked on still stand. AND... a lot of those I talked to are now advocates FOR protection of streams. They don't have much respect for Luna Butterfly, though.

Sooo... even on this issue, the Green Party is partially effective, they are not nearly as effective as they could be if they were willingto look beyond their "ideals". Teh Democrats have actually accomplished a lot more. Obama is supporting alternative energy to a point (not as much as I would like, but what I would like won't happen tommorrow).

Addressing the financial sector, Jill Stein would restore Glass-Steagall, establish a 90% tax on bonuses for bailed out bankers, regulate financial derivatives, break up the big banks that are ‘too big to fail’ and nationalize the Federal Reserve.

This is legally a non-starter. Its like trying to say you want an abolitionist to be elected Governor of Mississippi in 1825, and that promoting such is the way to end slavery.

She would also put in place a Voter’s Bill of Rights that would guarantee us a voter-marked paper ballot for all voting and require that all votes are counted before election results are released. It would also replace partisan oversight of elections with non-partisan election commissions, make Election Day a national holiday and bring simplified, safe same-day voter registration to the nation.

Election day used to be a national holiday, but the emphasis on paper ballots is just backwards. Good electronic voting over an extended time period would be far easier and more effective in this day and age.

Paper ballots require in person counting.

With concern to the military and homeland security, Dr. Stein would repeal the PATRIOT Act and the parts of the NDAA that violate civil liberties. She would also call for a 50% reduction in military spending that includes the withdrawal of U.S. military bases from the over 140 countries in which our military is now located.
Yes, I would like the Patriot Act repealed. Not convinced she would actually do it even if she was elected... a lot of Presidents make that type of promise and then are not able to deliver because it is very much tied into power adn some other reasons. I don't know what parts of NDAA is meant, have to research more.

Per cutting the military by 50% and closing foreign bases.. NO! That is not the kind of heavy-handed and immediate change we want. That she makes this her platform, like many of the other points highlights what I mean by lack of realism and ability to compromise.

You've failed to mention the war on drugs here. What is your opinion on the Green Party's and Justice Party's position there? Or is it not a big issue for you?
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:40 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Here, PLAYER reveals that she doesn't actually agree with the Green Party and is, in fact, just another Democratic shill who used to voice Green Party rhetoric because she wanted to sound like she was actually in favor of helping people.


Let's compare notes

You -- worked for the military for years, even teach ROTC in your local school, but are an avid Green Party supporter even though the Green Party is anti-military in a big way.


"Anti-war" and "anti-military" are not synonymous ideas. The simpleton statement "the Green Party is anti-military in a big way" is sophistic and inaccurate.

Unless you think US soldiers really want to be in Afghanistan, pledging to bring US troops back from there and pledging to increase funding for veteran's medical benefits seems pro-military to me. Below is Jill Stein outside McChord air base two weeks ago. The sign says "Jill Stein Will Bring Our Troops Home" not "Jill Stein Hates Our Troops."

You're identical to the Bush-era neocons who said opposing invading Iraq means you're un-American. It's hilarious how aligned you and Scott are ... and how fooled and cowed you are into thinking you're diametrically opposed.

Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:03 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Here, PLAYER reveals that she doesn't actually agree with the Green Party and is, in fact, just another Democratic shill who used to voice Green Party rhetoric because she wanted to sound like she was actually in favor of helping people.


Let's compare notes

You -- worked for the military for years, even teach ROTC in your local school, but are an avid Green Party supporter even though the Green Party is anti-military in a big way.


"Anti-war" and "anti-military" are not synonymous ideas. The simpleton statement "the Green Party is anti-military in a big way" is sophistic and inaccurate.
A 50% cut is being pretty anti military.

saxitoxin wrote:Unless you think US soldiers really want to be in Afghanistan, pledging to bring US troops back from there and pledging to increase funding for veteran's medical benefits seems pro-military to me. Below is Jill Stein outside McChord air base two weeks ago. The sign says "Jill Stein Will Bring Our Troops Home" not "Jill Stein Hates Our Troops."

She is talking about closing ALL the military bases, not just Afghanistan. I am very happy she is not mirroring the 1960's and early 70's idiots who I witnesses spitting on soliders, but that doesn't make her pro military.

I think some bases should be closed, some cutbacks have to be made.. but not the wholescale changes she suggests.
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Re: Politics, the Green Party.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:05 pm

MegaProphet wrote:You've failed to mention the war on drugs here. What is your opinion on the Green Party's and Justice Party's position there? Or is it not a big issue for you?
Its not mentioned because apparently it is not a big part of Jill Stein's platform.
No secret there. I am very much in favor of legalizing marihuana, though not other drugs. I also think there needs to be some clampdownon the supposedly "safe" "fake" marihuana. Apparently it is actually dangerous (though marihuana, ironically, is not).
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