All your children belong to us!

[john9blue]

To be fair, Scotty is the kind of guy who thinks that Hitler was too far to the left for his tastes.

i may have just had a revelation.

the reason most liberals post ignorant bullshit like this, and choose to circlejerk with other liberals instead of trying to participate in reasonable debate, is because they have no interest in debating in the first place, because debating is for increasing your own knowledge of the subject at hand, which most liberals have no interest in because they already think they know everything about the subject. the only debates they will actually participate in are the easy ones (debating young-earth creationists, nationalist war hawks, etc.) in order to increase their ego.

the pieces are starting to fall into place, you guys

[thegreekdog]

To be fair, Scotty is the kind of guy who thinks that Hitler was too far to the left for his tastes.

i may have just had a revelation.

the reason most liberals post ignorant bullshit like this, instead of trying to participate in reasonable debate, is because they have no interest in debating in the first place, because debating is for increasing your own knowledge of the subject at hand, which most liberals have no interest in because they already think they know everything about the subject

the pieces are starting to fall into place, you guys

Symmetry posted (on page 2) some discussion. It was ignored by Phatscotty. While I'm no big fan of Symmetry's political views (or greecepwns'), I can readily say that they do not just throw out one-liners.

Don't act like Symmetry typed that in a vacuum dude. You should know better than that.

I think Phatscotty's argument is stupid paranoia; even if it's true that all professors are liberal (which it's not, even just based on anecdotal evidence), there is no evidence that it has had any great effect on American politics (given that, you know 50% or so Americans are conservative).

[Symmetry]

Indeed, and I've argued against Scotty for a long while on these forums. Scotty does indeed consider the Nazis as left of his position.

[The Voice]

I think timing plays an important part. It's likely more convenient for students to identify as liberals, that is, if they even care about politics at all, which is another matter.

My old boss used to say, if you're young and conservative, you don't have a heart; if you're old and liberal, you don't have a brain. Sure, there are plenty of mindless masses who stay one way or the other all their lives, but for those of us who can think for ourselves, our ideologies shift as our environment, priorities, etc. change.

You should consider the following for your new signature:

I guess I've been outed as a staunch monarchist.

[Lootifer]

I did engineering and didnt notice one single bit of political slant in any class I ever attended (though arguably I was probably too hungover to notice - assuming I even attended the class at all...)

[john9blue]

Symmetry posted (on page 2) some discussion. It was ignored by Phatscotty. While I'm no big fan of Symmetry's political views (or greecepwns'), I can readily say that they do not just throw out one-liners.

Don't act like Symmetry typed that in a vacuum dude. You should know better than that.

I think Phatscotty's argument is stupid paranoia; even if it's true that all professors are liberal (which it's not, even just based on anecdotal evidence), there is no evidence that it has had any great effect on American politics (given that, you know 50% or so Americans are conservative).

you're right about page 2; i'll confess to not reading this entire thread before posting.

i do think liberal professors would have a huge impact on american politics. college is the age at which people are most impressionable yet starting to find out about the "real world". that combined with the lack of parental influence, and who else are college students going to turn to (obviously there are exceptions, but generally speaking)? that's not even considering the other reasons they might favor liberalism (benefiting from high tax rates) as well as the positive feedback loop that comes from liberal professors being more likely to have a positive influence on liberal students, who are more likely to have liberal friends, etc.

Indeed, and I've argued against Scotty for a long while on these forums. Scotty does indeed consider the Nazis as left of his position.

economically? in what thread? i'm honestly not a fan of some of scotty's social policies, but i wouldn't say he comes close to the nazis.

[thegreekdog]

i do think liberal professors would have a huge impact on american politics. college is the age at which people are most impressionable yet starting to find out about the "real world". that combined with the lack of parental influence, and who else are college students going to turn to (obviously there are exceptions, but generally speaking)? that's not even considering the other reasons they might favor liberalism (benefiting from high tax rates) as well as the positive feedback loop that comes from liberal professors being more likely to have a positive influence on liberal students, who are more likely to have liberal friends, etc.

I agree there is peer pressure associated with political persuasion and that can come from professors (in addition to peers).

I've found that employment often has an effect on political leanings, for example. But I also know (anecdotally) that no one I knew at college changed from liberal to conservative (or vice versa) because of professors.

[Phatscotty]

Symmetry posted (on page 2) some discussion. It was ignored by Phatscotty. While I'm no big fan of Symmetry's political views (or greecepwns'), I can readily say that they do not just throw out one-liners.


I think Phatscotty's argument is stupid paranoia; even if it's true that all professors are liberal (which it's not, even just based on anecdotal evidence), there is no evidence that it has had any great effect on American politics (given that, you know 50% or so Americans are conservative).

LOL. I bet over 50% of your posts are about me, and over 50% of those put words in my mouth or misrepresent what I actually said, badly. I'm starting to wonder about your credibility

So, prove that you are not a liar or trying to troll, and show me exactly where I said ALL professors are Liberal? If you want to save a little face after you can't find it (because I don't believe that and never have) you might want to peruse the OP again

[notyou2]

I did engineering and didnt notice one single bit of political slant in any class I ever attended (though arguably I was probably too hungover to notice - assuming I even attended the class at all...)

What about that liberal statics professor that felt beams should be free floating and not subject to fulcrums?

[Phatscotty]

Symmetry posted (on page 2) some discussion. It was ignored by Phatscotty. While I'm no big fan of Symmetry's political views (or greecepwns'), I can readily say that they do not just throw out one-liners.


I think Phatscotty's argument is stupid paranoia; even if it's true that all professors are liberal (which it's not, even just based on anecdotal evidence), there is no evidence that it has had any great effect on American politics (given that, you know 50% or so Americans are conservative).

LOL. I bet over 50% of your posts are about me, and over 50% of those put words in my mouth or misrepresent what I actually said, badly. I'm starting to wonder about your credibility

So, prove that you are not a liar or trying to troll, and show me exactly where I said ALL professors are Liberal? If you want to save a little face after you can't find it (because I don't believe that and never have) you might want to peruse the OP again

And I didn't ignore Symmetry's post. I think I said "I can't respond to all posts, I will be back later" That was less than 24 hours ago. "ignoring!!!!".........You're funny

[thegreekdog]

Symmetry posted (on page 2) some discussion. It was ignored by Phatscotty. While I'm no big fan of Symmetry's political views (or greecepwns'), I can readily say that they do not just throw out one-liners.


I think Phatscotty's argument is stupid paranoia; even if it's true that all professors are liberal (which it's not, even just based on anecdotal evidence), there is no evidence that it has had any great effect on American politics (given that, you know 50% or so Americans are conservative).

LOL. I bet over 50% of your posts are about me, and over 50% of those put words in my mouth or misrepresent what I actually said, badly. I'm starting to wonder about your credibility

So, prove that you are not a liar or trying to troll, and show me exactly where I said ALL professors are Liberal? If you want to save a little face after you can't find it (because I don't believe that and never have) you might want to peruse the OP again

I wasn't ascribing the "all professors are liberal" statement to you. My point is that even if all professors are liberal, it doesn't change the underlying logic that if all professors were liberal and professors had enough influence to sway peoples' opinions, there would be no conservatives in the United States that attended college. Perhaps if you actually read my posts instead of reacting with paranoid delusions of grandeur, we could avoid this sort of nonsense in the future.

If you spent more time thinking critically and less time trying to determine how many of my posts are about you or about my credibility, you might actually make some sense occasionally. You're being paranoid and it's not original. I've heard your argument since I was in college and it's still absurd. Some conservatives have this fascination with trying to determine why intelligent people would ever choose the liberal persuasion; their only answer is "they must be indoctrinated by liberal professors." My response is to those conservatives is to fairly, accurately, and with conviction explain your own ideas and intelligent people should listen to you.

[Phatscotty]

Symmetry posted (on page 2) some discussion. It was ignored by Phatscotty. While I'm no big fan of Symmetry's political views (or greecepwns'), I can readily say that they do not just throw out one-liners.


I think Phatscotty's argument is stupid paranoia; even if it's true that all professors are liberal (which it's not, even just based on anecdotal evidence), there is no evidence that it has had any great effect on American politics (given that, you know 50% or so Americans are conservative).

LOL. I bet over 50% of your posts are about me, and over 50% of those put words in my mouth or misrepresent what I actually said, badly. I'm starting to wonder about your credibility

So, prove that you are not a liar or trying to troll, and show me exactly where I said ALL professors are Liberal? If you want to save a little face after you can't find it (because I don't believe that and never have) you might want to peruse the OP again

I wasn't ascribing the "all professors are liberal" statement to you. My point is that even if all professors are liberal, it doesn't change the underlying logic that if all professors were liberal and professors had enough influence to sway peoples' opinions, there would be no conservatives in the United States that attended college. Perhaps if you actually read my posts instead of reacting with paranoid delusions of grandeur, we could avoid this sort of nonsense in the future.

If you spent more time thinking critically and less time trying to determine how many of my posts are about you or about my credibility, you might actually make some sense occasionally. You're being paranoid and it's not original. I've heard your argument since I was in college and it's still absurd. Some conservatives have this fascination with trying to determine why intelligent people would ever choose the liberal persuasion; their only answer is "they must be indoctrinated by liberal professors." My response is to those conservatives is to fairly, accurately, and with conviction explain your own ideas and intelligent people should listen to you.

I'm not being paranoid, (even if you say it 5 more times) I'm showing evidence. I showed the results of a study that found college makes students Liberal/more Liberal, a study done by a Liberal.

Every single professor does not need to be a Liberal in order for college to make students Liberal/more Liberal, and every single student that goes to college does not need to be converted to a Liberal in order to prove that college makes students Liberal/more Liberal. Of course there are exceptions, but overall, in the end, generally students leave college more Liberal then when they started. Those are the results of the study.

[Phatscotty]

by all means, if you want to talk about "why" it is that college professors are the most Liberal dominated occupation in the United States (fact), or "why" it is the norm that college makes students Liberal/more Liberal (evidence to support), that is what all the information looks at.

But nothing can change the results

[thegreekdog]

Symmetry posted (on page 2) some discussion. It was ignored by Phatscotty. While I'm no big fan of Symmetry's political views (or greecepwns'), I can readily say that they do not just throw out one-liners.


I think Phatscotty's argument is stupid paranoia; even if it's true that all professors are liberal (which it's not, even just based on anecdotal evidence), there is no evidence that it has had any great effect on American politics (given that, you know 50% or so Americans are conservative).

LOL. I bet over 50% of your posts are about me, and over 50% of those put words in my mouth or misrepresent what I actually said, badly. I'm starting to wonder about your credibility

So, prove that you are not a liar or trying to troll, and show me exactly where I said ALL professors are Liberal? If you want to save a little face after you can't find it (because I don't believe that and never have) you might want to peruse the OP again

I wasn't ascribing the "all professors are liberal" statement to you. My point is that even if all professors are liberal, it doesn't change the underlying logic that if all professors were liberal and professors had enough influence to sway peoples' opinions, there would be no conservatives in the United States that attended college. Perhaps if you actually read my posts instead of reacting with paranoid delusions of grandeur, we could avoid this sort of nonsense in the future.

If you spent more time thinking critically and less time trying to determine how many of my posts are about you or about my credibility, you might actually make some sense occasionally. You're being paranoid and it's not original. I've heard your argument since I was in college and it's still absurd. Some conservatives have this fascination with trying to determine why intelligent people would ever choose the liberal persuasion; their only answer is "they must be indoctrinated by liberal professors." My response is to those conservatives is to fairly, accurately, and with conviction explain your own ideas and intelligent people should listen to you.

I'm not being paranoid, (even if you say it 5 more times) I'm showing evidence. I showed the results of a study that found college makes students Liberal/more Liberal, a study done by a Liberal.

Every single professor does not need to be a Liberal in order for college to make students Liberal, and every single student that goes to college does not need to be converted to a Liberal in order to prove that college makes students Liberal/more Liberal. Of course there are exceptions, but overall, in the end, generally students leave college more Liberal then when they started. Those are the results of the study.

Sorry it's contrary to your opinion.

You've actually shown no evidence at all. You linked to a study (that, incidentally, you didn't read). Further, the conclusion you provided doesn't actually prove your point.

Students do become Liberal/more Liberal (although he finds it's not substantial, he does find it's true)

Your point (provided in the other thread) and the point of conservatives who believe in university liberal indoctrination, is that such influence is pervasive and effective in indoctrinating students to the liberal persuasion.

But let's look at this dude's study. Did you read the PDF? Do you know what it says? Before you have a chance to go back and read it, it doesn't say anything about the influence professors have over students; rather, it merely discusses the views of professors taking the survey.

In sum, you've provided no proof of any position except that more college professors are liberal than conservative (although the highest percentage is moderate). Your point from the other thread is not any more valid because of the PDF you provided here and the conclusion the professor provided (above) also doesn't help your position.

So, again, spend less time trying to figure out if I'm a stalker who lacks credibility and more time reading your supposed support and thinking about how that supposed support actually helps (or in this case, doesn't help) your position.

[Phatscotty]

Yes, I read it, and I watched a couple hour+ interviews with Niel Gross on C-Span, and I read his articles in the New York times, and I heard an hour long radio interview on the radio with him. Over and over again, he confirms students leave college more Liberal/more Liberal.

The political scientist Mack Mariani and the higher education researcher Gordon Hewitt analyzed changes in student political attitudes between their freshman and senior years at 38 colleges and universities from 1999 to 2003. They found that on average, students shifted somewhat to the left

It’s certainly true that professors are a liberal lot and that religious skepticism is common in the academy. In a survey of more than 1,400 professors that the sociologist Solon Simmons and I conducted in 2006, covering academics in nearly all fields and in institutions ranging from community colleges to elite universities, we found that about half of the professors identified as liberal, as compared to just one in five Americans over all. In the social sciences, humanities and natural sciences, Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents outnumbered Republicans by a wide margin; among social scientists, for example, there were 10 Democrats for every Republican. Though a majority of professors said that they believed in God, 20 percent were atheists or agnostics — compared with just 4 percent in the general population.

It’s also true that young college graduates are somewhat more likely to identify as liberal and to hold more liberal attitudes on social issues than their non-college-educated peers.

[Lootifer]

I did engineering and didnt notice one single bit of political slant in any class I ever attended (though arguably I was probably too hungover to notice - assuming I even attended the class at all...)

What about that liberal statics professor that felt beams should be free floating and not subject to fulcrums?

lol...

...or the chemical and process head who advocated for electron-electron bonding.

[Phatscotty]

Greek, I notice you keep going on about "indoctrination", and that's fine. I just want to make sure we both understand, that is an opinion and it falls into the "how and why" it is that students leave college Liberal/more Liberal.

Do you have an opinion as to how or why it is students leave college more Liberal? Or do you disagree with that altogether?

[BigBallinStalin]

Yes, I read it, and I watched a couple hour+ interviews with Niel Gross on C-Span, and I read his articles in the New York times, and I heard an hour long radio interview on the radio with him. Over and over again, he confirms students leave college more Liberal/more Liberal.

The political scientist Mack Mariani and the higher education researcher Gordon Hewitt analyzed changes in student political attitudes between their freshman and senior years at 38 colleges and universities from 1999 to 2003. They found that on average, students shifted somewhat to the left

It’s certainly true that professors are a liberal lot and that religious skepticism is common in the academy. In a survey of more than 1,400 professors that the sociologist Solon Simmons and I conducted in 2006, covering academics in nearly all fields and in institutions ranging from community colleges to elite universities, we found that about half of the professors identified as liberal, as compared to just one in five Americans over all. In the social sciences, humanities and natural sciences, Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents outnumbered Republicans by a wide margin; among social scientists, for example, there were 10 Democrats for every Republican. Though a majority of professors said that they believed in God, 20 percent were atheists or agnostics — compared with just 4 percent in the general population.

It’s also true that young college graduates are somewhat more likely to identify as liberal and to hold more liberal attitudes on social issues than their non-college-educated peers.

This reminds me of a previously quoted study which defined 'liberal' as answering 'Yes' to the question, "should gays be allowed to marry?"

How that makes one a leftist (or more supportive of state intervention in the economy) is beyond me.


(inb4 "legalizing gay marriage is government intervention, thus is a leftist position." This is nonsense since supporting a government's ban on gay marriage would just as 'leftist'.)

[Lootifer]

Greek, I notice you keep going on about "indoctrination", and that's fine. I just want to make sure we both understand, that is an opinion and it falls into the "how and why" it is that students leave college Liberal/more Liberal.

Do you have an opinion as to how or why it is students leave college more Liberal? Or do you disagree with that altogether?

Anecdotedly I would suggest ones peers have a much more powerful influence than professors, but thats just me.

[Phatscotty]

Greek, I notice you keep going on about "indoctrination", and that's fine. I just want to make sure we both understand, that is an opinion and it falls into the "how and why" it is that students leave college Liberal/more Liberal.

Do you have an opinion as to how or why it is students leave college more Liberal? Or do you disagree with that altogether?

Anecdotedly I would suggest ones peers have a much more powerful influence than professors, but thats just me.

Probably because they pay ten grand to take notes on everything their peers say and get tested on it...

[GreecePwns]

Hey greecepwns - you seemed to have a problem with the Catholic university you attended? Why did you go there? Did you not know it was Catholic oriented? Seems weird to criticize it when you could have left or not attended in the first place.

Outside of the theology stuff it was a decent school (and they threw money at me).

[AndyDufresne]

Does anyone have any ideas regarding the age factor? I.E. Young people, by virtue of their years on Earth, often are still developing their own ideas, personality, beliefs, stances, etc.

Do older adults (we'd have to decide what age definition this is, I don't know, just spitballing), leave college more or less liberal, or unchanged?

Also,

show

--Andy

[thegreekdog]

Greek, I notice you keep going on about "indoctrination", and that's fine. I just want to make sure we both understand, that is an opinion and it falls into the "how and why" it is that students leave college Liberal/more Liberal.

Do you have an opinion as to how or why it is students leave college more Liberal? Or do you disagree with that altogether?

I don't know because you haven't provided any evidence of whether students leave college more or less liberal. You keep referring to videos and books, but all you've done from an evidence perspective is post a PDF of a study that shows that there are more liberal professors than conservative professors.

I'm also waiting for an apology (especially considering I read that 76-page PDF looking for any evidence of the students being more liberal point). You haven't shown evidence of any of your points (in this thread). And the indoctrination point is from the other thread that you posted in. If you've changed your mind about that point of view, please do tell.

[Crazyirishman]

In my experience in college I've had a fair number of conservative professors and liberal professors, and they've been from a multitude of countries, as well as myself taking class in 3 different countries/settings.

I know for a fact, that most of my philosophy professors are liberal, but they will argue points that they themselves do not believe in for the sake of providing both sides of an issue. In some cases they will argue for a conservative viewpoint to contradict something that a liberal student brings up just cuz that's the kind of things philosophers do.

I don't feel that I've become 'more liberal' than I was 3 years ago, since liberal & conservative are terms relative to your environment. In my hometown, I was considered to be more liberal, and when I moved out to the east coast for school, I was considered to be more conservative. This still appears to be the case when I talk to people.

[john9blue]

I agree there is peer pressure associated with political persuasion and that can come from professors (in addition to peers).

I've found that employment often has an effect on political leanings, for example. But I also know (anecdotally) that no one I knew at college changed from liberal to conservative (or vice versa) because of professors.

i witnessed a few people go from conservative to liberal during my 4 years at university. i also had one geoscience professor who openly criticized republicans and christians.

anecdotal, though, and to be fair, i went to a very liberal/progressive university, so i can't speak for everyone.