Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

[CreepersWiener]

Bushmaster XM-15...ASSAULT RIFLE!

[thegreekdog]

Bushmaster XM-15...SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPON... THEREFORE NOT ASSAULT RIFLE!

Fixed that for you.

[Symmetry]

The assault rifle used in the recent school shooting, we're referring to, right?

So no? No evidence?

What is the name of the gun that you think was used in the Newtown killings?

According to my evidence, the gun used was the Bushmaster XM-15 rifle. That particular firearm is a semi-automatic weapon, and thus, by definition, not an assault rifle. The overview page for wiki states, specifically:

The M4 Type Carbine is a firearm manufactured by Bushmaster Firearms International, modeled on the AR-15 platform.
OverviewThe M4 Type Carbine is a reproduction of the Colt M4 Carbine, but is usually only semi-automatic for legality within the U.S. civilian market. However, it can be ordered by military or law enforcement organizations with three-round burst or fully automatic capability.

I wait with bated breath for your thoughts.

The Bushmaster AR-15, as I've provided evidence for.

Connecticut school shooter used assault rifle, had many bullets

Perhaps reuters would be more trustrworthy:

Late on Monday, California Treasurer Bill Lockyer asked CalPERS and CalSTRS, the state's public pension funds and the largest in the United States, to account for their investments in gun manufacturers, and proposed that they sell their interest in any company that makes guns that are illegal under California's assault weapons ban.

California's ban includes the Bushmaster rifle

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/18/us-cerberus-freedomgroup-idUSBRE8BH08F20121218

[thegreekdog]

The assault rifle used in the recent school shooting, we're referring to, right?

So no? No evidence?

What is the name of the gun that you think was used in the Newtown killings?

According to my evidence, the gun used was the Bushmaster XM-15 rifle. That particular firearm is a semi-automatic weapon, and thus, by definition, not an assault rifle. The overview page for wiki states, specifically:

The M4 Type Carbine is a firearm manufactured by Bushmaster Firearms International, modeled on the AR-15 platform.
OverviewThe M4 Type Carbine is a reproduction of the Colt M4 Carbine, but is usually only semi-automatic for legality within the U.S. civilian market. However, it can be ordered by military or law enforcement organizations with three-round burst or fully automatic capability.

I wait with bated breath for your thoughts.

The Bushmaster AR-15, as I've provided evidence for.

Connecticut school shooter used assault rifle, had many bullets

Perhaps reuters would be more trustrworthy:

Late on Monday, California Treasurer Bill Lockyer asked CalPERS and CalSTRS, the state's public pension funds and the largest in the United States, to account for their investments in gun manufacturers, and proposed that they sell their interest in any company that makes guns that are illegal under California's assault weapons ban.

California's ban includes the Bushmaster rifle

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/18/us-cerberus-freedomgroup-idUSBRE8BH08F20121218

As I've demonstrated, the gun used in the Newtown killings was not an assault rifle (defined by me, pursuant to the evidence I've provided and for which you've provided no evidence to the contrary). It was a semi-automatic weapon.

The LA Times article does not define assault rifle, but uses the term "semi-automatic" numerous times. As I've demonstrated, a semi-automatic weapon is not an assault rifle. Therefore, the LA Times contradicts its own use of the term assault rifle. This is likely because it prefers the term "assault rifle" which has high shock value compared to semi-automatic weapon.

The Reuters article does not mention the term "assault rifle" at all, but does refer to semi-automatic weapons on a number of occasions.

I'm not sure what your point is, except to make yourself look silly. I've had nice discussions with Lootifer and Comic Boy, but you've chosen to go a different route. So, in the interest of your own feelings, let's try again - would you be in favor of banning all semi-automatic weapons, semi-automatic weapons that look like automatic weapons, or something different? I think Lootifer had some good ideas, did you?

If, on the other hand, you want to keep arguing about your definition of assault rifle, which is based on nothing but wild fantasy, let's keep doing that.

[Symmetry]

Look, I'm not sure what else, if anything that I can give. You've got evidence that it's an assault weapon, from a bunch of opinions- media, legal, and commercial.

i don't know what else i can provide. Tgd, your arguments of late seem to be summed up as a general "No". To all sources given, and to all posters who disagree.

Giving you what you ask for, source-wise, seems like it will only garner insults,

[thegreekdog]

Look, I'm not sure what else, if anything that I can give. You've got evidence that it's an assault weapon, from a bunch of opinions- media, legal, and commercial.

i don't know what else i can provide. Tgd, your arguments of late seem to be summed up as a general "No". To all sources given, and to all posters who disagree.

Giving you what you ask for, source-wise, seems like it will only garner insults,

Hmm... it seems you've now changed the term from assault rifle to assault weapon.* Is there no limit to the depths you will go?

No, no there isn't - you again resort to ad hominems when you don't win the argument.

I would think you would have to ask yourself, "Self, since I can't find a definition of assault rifle that includes the term "semi-automatic" perhaps TGD is correct and I should acknowledge it." Apparently your ego does not permit you to think this way. And that is unfortunate because we could have had such a good discussion instead of this back and forth where you look silly. If my arguments of late (i.e. today) can be summed up by "no," it is merely because you refuse to acknowledge evidence and prefer, instead, to rely upon the LA Times or ad hominem attacks. I'm not sure what else I can do for you. You refuse to acknowledge evidence. You refuse to read other, more constructive discussions (I mean, seriously... where do you get this idea that my answer is "no" to all posters... it's only you sweetie pie and only in this thread).

I retain some small hope that you will begin to pay attention and save yourself from further embarrassment. I mean, at this point, your posts in this thread are equitable to Creepersweiner's post.

But, here is some more evidence. This from the U.S. federal government.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... a-firearms
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... -guns.html

*Assault weapons are not banned and include, under the definition of that term, semi-automatic weapons.

[CreepersWiener]

Clearly TGD must be labeled a terrorist and rounded up with the rest of the hicks.

[thegreekdog]

Clearly TGD must be labeled a terrorist and rounded up with the rest of the hicks.

Given the amount of times I've done searches related to firearms and the websites I've been on, I'm expecting a call from the federal government shortly.

[Symmetry]

Look, I'm not sure what else, if anything that I can give. You've got evidence that it's an assault weapon, from a bunch of opinions- media, legal, and commercial.

i don't know what else i can provide. Tgd, your arguments of late seem to be summed up as a general "No". To all sources given, and to all posters who disagree.

Giving you what you ask for, source-wise, seems like it will only garner insults,

Hmm... it seems you've now changed the term from assault rifle to assault weapon.* Is there no limit to the depths you will go?

No, no there isn't - you again resort to ad hominems when you don't win the argument.

I would think you would have to ask yourself, "Self, since I can't find a definition of assault rifle that includes the term "semi-automatic" perhaps TGD is correct and I should acknowledge it." Apparently your ego does not permit you to think this way. And that is unfortunate because we could have had such a good discussion instead of this back and forth where you look silly. If my arguments of late (i.e. today) can be summed up by "no," it is merely because you refuse to acknowledge evidence and prefer, instead, to rely upon the LA Times or ad hominem attacks. I'm not sure what else I can do for you. You refuse to acknowledge evidence. You refuse to read other, more constructive discussions (I mean, seriously... where do you get this idea that my answer is "no" to all posters... it's only you sweetie pie and only in this thread).

I retain some small hope that you will begin to pay attention and save yourself from further embarrassment. I mean, at this point, your posts in this thread are equitable to Creepersweiner's post.

But, here is some more evidence. This from the U.S. federal government.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... a-firearms
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... -guns.html

*Assault weapons are not banned and include, under the definition of that term, semi-automatic weapons.

i'm happy to go back to assault rifle, if that's preferable. I'm not sure that your posts flaming me for embarrassment quite work, but hey, I'm not attacking you personally, just asking what kind of evidence you're requesting that you won't ignore or insult.

[thegreekdog]

Look, I'm not sure what else, if anything that I can give. You've got evidence that it's an assault weapon, from a bunch of opinions- media, legal, and commercial.

i don't know what else i can provide. Tgd, your arguments of late seem to be summed up as a general "No". To all sources given, and to all posters who disagree.

Giving you what you ask for, source-wise, seems like it will only garner insults,

Hmm... it seems you've now changed the term from assault rifle to assault weapon.* Is there no limit to the depths you will go?

No, no there isn't - you again resort to ad hominems when you don't win the argument.

I would think you would have to ask yourself, "Self, since I can't find a definition of assault rifle that includes the term "semi-automatic" perhaps TGD is correct and I should acknowledge it." Apparently your ego does not permit you to think this way. And that is unfortunate because we could have had such a good discussion instead of this back and forth where you look silly. If my arguments of late (i.e. today) can be summed up by "no," it is merely because you refuse to acknowledge evidence and prefer, instead, to rely upon the LA Times or ad hominem attacks. I'm not sure what else I can do for you. You refuse to acknowledge evidence. You refuse to read other, more constructive discussions (I mean, seriously... where do you get this idea that my answer is "no" to all posters... it's only you sweetie pie and only in this thread).

I retain some small hope that you will begin to pay attention and save yourself from further embarrassment. I mean, at this point, your posts in this thread are equitable to Creepersweiner's post.

But, here is some more evidence. This from the U.S. federal government.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... a-firearms
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... -guns.html

*Assault weapons are not banned and include, under the definition of that term, semi-automatic weapons.

i'm happy to go back to assault rifle, if that's preferable. I'm not sure that your posts flaming me for embarrassment quite work, but hey, I'm not attacking you personally, just asking what kind of evidence you're requesting that you won't ignore or insult.

I would urge you to report my posts if you believe I'm flaming you. That seems to be the best way to deal with these sorts of things.

Given that I've provided evidence from the US federal government and wikipedia, the kind of evidence I'm requesting from you would be from the US federal government or wikipedia.

I think it is fascinating insight that you are asking me what evidence you can provide. This means that you have not yet acknowledge the evidence I've provided. So I guess let me ask the same question to you - what kind of evidence do you request of me that you won't ignore or respond with ad hominems?

[Symmetry]

Look, I'm not sure what else, if anything that I can give. You've got evidence that it's an assault weapon, from a bunch of opinions- media, legal, and commercial.

i don't know what else i can provide. Tgd, your arguments of late seem to be summed up as a general "No". To all sources given, and to all posters who disagree.

Giving you what you ask for, source-wise, seems like it will only garner insults,

Hmm... it seems you've now changed the term from assault rifle to assault weapon.* Is there no limit to the depths you will go?

No, no there isn't - you again resort to ad hominems when you don't win the argument.

I would think you would have to ask yourself, "Self, since I can't find a definition of assault rifle that includes the term "semi-automatic" perhaps TGD is correct and I should acknowledge it." Apparently your ego does not permit you to think this way. And that is unfortunate because we could have had such a good discussion instead of this back and forth where you look silly. If my arguments of late (i.e. today) can be summed up by "no," it is merely because you refuse to acknowledge evidence and prefer, instead, to rely upon the LA Times or ad hominem attacks. I'm not sure what else I can do for you. You refuse to acknowledge evidence. You refuse to read other, more constructive discussions (I mean, seriously... where do you get this idea that my answer is "no" to all posters... it's only you sweetie pie and only in this thread).

I retain some small hope that you will begin to pay attention and save yourself from further embarrassment. I mean, at this point, your posts in this thread are equitable to Creepersweiner's post.

But, here is some more evidence. This from the U.S. federal government.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... a-firearms
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... -guns.html

*Assault weapons are not banned and include, under the definition of that term, semi-automatic weapons.

i'm happy to go back to assault rifle, if that's preferable. I'm not sure that your posts flaming me for embarrassment quite work, but hey, I'm not attacking you personally, just asking what kind of evidence you're requesting that you won't ignore or insult.

I would urge you to report my posts if you believe I'm flaming you. That seems to be the best way to deal with these sorts of things.

Given that I've provided evidence from the US federal government and wikipedia, the kind of evidence I'm requesting from you would be from the US federal government or wikipedia.

I think it is fascinating insight that you are asking me what evidence you can provide. This means that you have not yet acknowledge the evidence I've provided. So I guess let me ask the same question to you - what kind of evidence do you request of me that you won't ignore or respond with ad hominems?

I don't want to report you dude. I'd prefer a rational discussion that doesn't involve you demanding that I post sources and replies then flaming me when I do.

[thegreekdog]

Look, I'm not sure what else, if anything that I can give. You've got evidence that it's an assault weapon, from a bunch of opinions- media, legal, and commercial.

i don't know what else i can provide. Tgd, your arguments of late seem to be summed up as a general "No". To all sources given, and to all posters who disagree.

Giving you what you ask for, source-wise, seems like it will only garner insults,

Hmm... it seems you've now changed the term from assault rifle to assault weapon.* Is there no limit to the depths you will go?

No, no there isn't - you again resort to ad hominems when you don't win the argument.

I would think you would have to ask yourself, "Self, since I can't find a definition of assault rifle that includes the term "semi-automatic" perhaps TGD is correct and I should acknowledge it." Apparently your ego does not permit you to think this way. And that is unfortunate because we could have had such a good discussion instead of this back and forth where you look silly. If my arguments of late (i.e. today) can be summed up by "no," it is merely because you refuse to acknowledge evidence and prefer, instead, to rely upon the LA Times or ad hominem attacks. I'm not sure what else I can do for you. You refuse to acknowledge evidence. You refuse to read other, more constructive discussions (I mean, seriously... where do you get this idea that my answer is "no" to all posters... it's only you sweetie pie and only in this thread).

I retain some small hope that you will begin to pay attention and save yourself from further embarrassment. I mean, at this point, your posts in this thread are equitable to Creepersweiner's post.

But, here is some more evidence. This from the U.S. federal government.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... a-firearms
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... -guns.html

*Assault weapons are not banned and include, under the definition of that term, semi-automatic weapons.

i'm happy to go back to assault rifle, if that's preferable. I'm not sure that your posts flaming me for embarrassment quite work, but hey, I'm not attacking you personally, just asking what kind of evidence you're requesting that you won't ignore or insult.

I would urge you to report my posts if you believe I'm flaming you. That seems to be the best way to deal with these sorts of things.

Given that I've provided evidence from the US federal government and wikipedia, the kind of evidence I'm requesting from you would be from the US federal government or wikipedia.

I think it is fascinating insight that you are asking me what evidence you can provide. This means that you have not yet acknowledge the evidence I've provided. So I guess let me ask the same question to you - what kind of evidence do you request of me that you won't ignore or respond with ad hominems?

I don't want to report you dude. I'd prefer a rational discussion that doesn't involve you demanding that I post sources and replies then flaming me when I do.

A rational discussion of what exactly?

[GreecePwns]

If you refuse and shoot the guy who comes to take your gun away, what happens next? 10 guys come with bigger guns and take your gun away. You form a militia with some like minded people and hole up somewhere. they find out where you are and storm it. Your ragtag bunch of armed civilians somehow defeat the crack military squad. So they just blow you the hell up.

There is no way you win that fight in the end. Period. Therefore having a gun will not protect you.

It depends how popular that militia is.

Is it considered by the nation to be a fringe radical movement? No one cares.
Is it considered by the nation to be a popular movement? People care, it riles up further opposition, and civil war begins (or the government goes bat shit crazy like blowing up its own civilians and the international community gets involved.

[Symmetry]

Look, I'm not sure what else, if anything that I can give. You've got evidence that it's an assault weapon, from a bunch of opinions- media, legal, and commercial.

i don't know what else i can provide. Tgd, your arguments of late seem to be summed up as a general "No". To all sources given, and to all posters who disagree.

Giving you what you ask for, source-wise, seems like it will only garner insults,

Hmm... it seems you've now changed the term from assault rifle to assault weapon.* Is there no limit to the depths you will go?

No, no there isn't - you again resort to ad hominems when you don't win the argument.

I would think you would have to ask yourself, "Self, since I can't find a definition of assault rifle that includes the term "semi-automatic" perhaps TGD is correct and I should acknowledge it." Apparently your ego does not permit you to think this way. And that is unfortunate because we could have had such a good discussion instead of this back and forth where you look silly. If my arguments of late (i.e. today) can be summed up by "no," it is merely because you refuse to acknowledge evidence and prefer, instead, to rely upon the LA Times or ad hominem attacks. I'm not sure what else I can do for you. You refuse to acknowledge evidence. You refuse to read other, more constructive discussions (I mean, seriously... where do you get this idea that my answer is "no" to all posters... it's only you sweetie pie and only in this thread).

I retain some small hope that you will begin to pay attention and save yourself from further embarrassment. I mean, at this point, your posts in this thread are equitable to Creepersweiner's post.

But, here is some more evidence. This from the U.S. federal government.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... a-firearms
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... -guns.html

*Assault weapons are not banned and include, under the definition of that term, semi-automatic weapons.

i'm happy to go back to assault rifle, if that's preferable. I'm not sure that your posts flaming me for embarrassment quite work, but hey, I'm not attacking you personally, just asking what kind of evidence you're requesting that you won't ignore or insult.

I would urge you to report my posts if you believe I'm flaming you. That seems to be the best way to deal with these sorts of things.

Given that I've provided evidence from the US federal government and wikipedia, the kind of evidence I'm requesting from you would be from the US federal government or wikipedia.

I think it is fascinating insight that you are asking me what evidence you can provide. This means that you have not yet acknowledge the evidence I've provided. So I guess let me ask the same question to you - what kind of evidence do you request of me that you won't ignore or respond with ad hominems?

I don't want to report you dude. I'd prefer a rational discussion that doesn't involve you demanding that I post sources and replies then flaming me when I do.

A rational discussion of what exactly?

The ownership of guns and the control over the the kind of gun, an assault rifle, used in the most recent mass shooting.

i just checked your wiki source for assault rifles, and I apologise for not fact checking you before, but the source doesn't back up the wiki claim.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/39165/assault-rifle is the source given for the wiki definition.

Quoting what it actually says is slightly different:

In those countries where assault rifles can be purchased in the civilian market, their sale is subject to various restrictions, such as the elimination of automatic action and of the capacity to fire high-performance military ammunition.

I should have checked out your claims more thoroughly, but yes, you're clearly wrong here.

[thegreekdog]

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/39165/assault-rifle is the source given for the wiki definition.

Quoting what it actually says is slightly different:

In those countries where assault rifles can be purchased in the civilian market, their sale is subject to various restrictions, such as the elimination of automatic action and of the capacity to fire high-performance military ammunition.

I should have checked out your claims more thoroughly, but yes, you're clearly wrong here.

I'm confused as to how that is different than what I provided.

Since I always check your support, here is the full definition from Britannica. I've highlighted some relevant portions for your reference.

assault rifle, military firearm that is chambered for ammunition of reduced size or propellant charge and that has the capacity to switch between semiautomatic and fully automatic fire. Because they are light and portable yet still able to deliver a high volume of fire with reasonable accuracy at modern combat ranges of 300–500 m (1,000–1,600 feet), assault rifles have replaced the high-powered bolt-action and semiautomatic riflesmof the World War II era as the standard infantry weapon of modern armies. Their ease of handling makes them ideal for mobile assault troops crowded into personnel carriers or helicopters, as well as for guerrilla fighters engaged in jungle or urban warfare. Widely used assault rifles are the United States’ M16, the Soviet Kalashnikov (the AK-47 and modernized versions), the Belgian FAL and FNC, and the German G3. (See also AK-47; M16 rifle.)

Assault rifles operate by using either propellant gases or blowback forces generated by a fired round to force back the bolt, eject the spent cartridge case, and cock the firing mechanism. A spring then pushes the bolt forward as a fresh cartridge is fed into the chamber, and the gun is fired again. Cartridges are fed into the guns from magazines holding as many as 30 rounds. Many assault rifles have attachments for grenade launchers, sniperscopes, and bayonets.

In those countries where assault rifles can be purchased in the civilian market, their sale is subject to various restrictions, such as the elimination of automatic action and of the capacity to fire high-performance military ammunition.

So, if you want to ban the types of weapons that were used in the Newtown killings... would you like to ban all semi-automatic weapons, some semi-automatic weapons, semi-automatic weapons that look like assault rifles, or something else?

[thegreekdog]

If you refuse and shoot the guy who comes to take your gun away, what happens next? 10 guys come with bigger guns and take your gun away. You form a militia with some like minded people and hole up somewhere. they find out where you are and storm it. Your ragtag bunch of armed civilians somehow defeat the crack military squad. So they just blow you the hell up.

There is no way you win that fight in the end. Period. Therefore having a gun will not protect you.

It depends how popular that militia is.

Is it considered by the nation to be a fringe radical movement? No one cares.
Is it considered by the nation to be a popular movement? People care, it riles up further opposition, and civil war begins (or the government goes bat shit crazy like blowing up its own civilians and the international community gets involved.

I don't want to put words in peoples' mouths, but I think the assumption is that a well-armed militia would not be necessary or adivsable in the United States... ever. I suspect there are a number of rebellions, armed uprisings, defenses, and civil wars where one side relied heavily on well-armed militias.

[Symmetry]

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/39165/assault-rifle is the source given for the wiki definition.

Quoting what it actually says is slightly different:

In those countries where assault rifles can be purchased in the civilian market, their sale is subject to various restrictions, such as the elimination of automatic action and of the capacity to fire high-performance military ammunition.

I should have checked out your claims more thoroughly, but yes, you're clearly wrong here.

I'm confused as to how that is different than what I provided.

Since I always check your support, here is the full definition from Britannica. I've highlighted some relevant portions for your reference.

assault rifle, military firearm that is chambered for ammunition of reduced size or propellant charge and that has the capacity to switch between semiautomatic and fully automatic fire. Because they are light and portable yet still able to deliver a high volume of fire with reasonable accuracy at modern combat ranges of 300–500 m (1,000–1,600 feet), assault rifles have replaced the high-powered bolt-action and semiautomatic riflesmof the World War II era as the standard infantry weapon of modern armies. Their ease of handling makes them ideal for mobile assault troops crowded into personnel carriers or helicopters, as well as for guerrilla fighters engaged in jungle or urban warfare. Widely used assault rifles are the United States’ M16, the Soviet Kalashnikov (the AK-47 and modernized versions), the Belgian FAL and FNC, and the German G3. (See also AK-47; M16 rifle.)

Assault rifles operate by using either propellant gases or blowback forces generated by a fired round to force back the bolt, eject the spent cartridge case, and cock the firing mechanism. A spring then pushes the bolt forward as a fresh cartridge is fed into the chamber, and the gun is fired again. Cartridges are fed into the guns from magazines holding as many as 30 rounds. Many assault rifles have attachments for grenade launchers, sniperscopes, and bayonets.

In those countries where assault rifles can be purchased in the civilian market, their sale is subject to various restrictions, such as the elimination of automatic action and of the capacity to fire high-performance military ammunition.

So, if you want to ban the types of weapons that were used in the Newtown killings... would you like to ban all semi-automatic weapons, some semi-automatic weapons, semi-automatic weapons that look like assault rifles, or something else?

I think banning assault rifles is a good idea. If you feel like actually talking about that, I'm open. You have my evidence, and you won't provide or reply to evidence showing that assault rifles are both manufactured, and purchasable in the US. i don't get why you're doing this, but I've given you what you asked for.

[CreepersWiener]

Guns don't kill people...Americans kill people!

[thegreekdog]

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/39165/assault-rifle is the source given for the wiki definition.

Quoting what it actually says is slightly different:

In those countries where assault rifles can be purchased in the civilian market, their sale is subject to various restrictions, such as the elimination of automatic action and of the capacity to fire high-performance military ammunition.

I should have checked out your claims more thoroughly, but yes, you're clearly wrong here.

I'm confused as to how that is different than what I provided.

Since I always check your support, here is the full definition from Britannica. I've highlighted some relevant portions for your reference.

assault rifle, military firearm that is chambered for ammunition of reduced size or propellant charge and that has the capacity to switch between semiautomatic and fully automatic fire. Because they are light and portable yet still able to deliver a high volume of fire with reasonable accuracy at modern combat ranges of 300–500 m (1,000–1,600 feet), assault rifles have replaced the high-powered bolt-action and semiautomatic riflesmof the World War II era as the standard infantry weapon of modern armies. Their ease of handling makes them ideal for mobile assault troops crowded into personnel carriers or helicopters, as well as for guerrilla fighters engaged in jungle or urban warfare. Widely used assault rifles are the United States’ M16, the Soviet Kalashnikov (the AK-47 and modernized versions), the Belgian FAL and FNC, and the German G3. (See also AK-47; M16 rifle.)

Assault rifles operate by using either propellant gases or blowback forces generated by a fired round to force back the bolt, eject the spent cartridge case, and cock the firing mechanism. A spring then pushes the bolt forward as a fresh cartridge is fed into the chamber, and the gun is fired again. Cartridges are fed into the guns from magazines holding as many as 30 rounds. Many assault rifles have attachments for grenade launchers, sniperscopes, and bayonets.

In those countries where assault rifles can be purchased in the civilian market, their sale is subject to various restrictions, such as the elimination of automatic action and of the capacity to fire high-performance military ammunition.

So, if you want to ban the types of weapons that were used in the Newtown killings... would you like to ban all semi-automatic weapons, some semi-automatic weapons, semi-automatic weapons that look like assault rifles, or something else?

I think banning assault rifles is a good idea. If you feel like actually talking about that, I'm open. You have my evidence, and you won't provide or reply to evidence showing that assault rifles are both manufactured, and purchasable in the US. i don't get why you're doing this, but I've given you what you asked for.

Sigh... this again Symmetry?

Let's do a recap with links for ease of reference.

(1) I ask two questions. The first is what firearms should be banned, if any.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=405#p3994044

(2) Symmetry posts indicating that "guns designed for anything other than self protection and/or hunting should be banned" and indicaes thre is no purpose for an assault rifle.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=405#p3994057

(3) I respond with a definition of assault rifle as being a rifle that is fully automatic or burst capable. I also indicate that the ATF regulates the ownership of assault rifles and that such rifles are illegal for civilians to own.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=405#p3994062

(4) Symmetry responds with two links. The first lists assault rifles for sale. The second is the bushmaster website.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=405#p3994080

(5) I respond with a wikipedia link indicating the definition of assault rifle and its illegality in the US.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=405#p3994084

(6) Symmetry responds with a link to The Nation article showing various guns that The Nation has labelled as assault rifles.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=405#p3994096

(7) I respond, using Symmetry's link from (6), showing that the weapons that The Nation has pointed out are all semi-automatic weapons, and therefore, not assault rifles.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=405#p3994107

(8) Symmetry responds indicating that assault rifles are legal. As support, he shows that the AR-15 is legal.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=405#p3994120

(9) I point out that the AR-15 is not an assault rifle and that the term "assault rifle" is not used in the wikipedia post describing the AR-15. I indicated that Symmetry is not using the standard definition of "assault rifle" and has not provided a different definition.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=405#p3994197

(10) I respond to Juan Bottom with the same items with which I responded to Symmetry.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=450#p3995288

(11) Symmetry responds that, since the assault rifle is still manufactured and available for sale in the US, my post to Juan is redundant.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=450#p3995301

(12) I reiterate my points above and that I've provided a definition of "assault rifle" and shown that they are illegal in the US. I ask Symmetry for a definition of "assault rifle."

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=450#p3995310

(13) Symmetry indicates that he's already provided a definition for "assault rifle."

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=450#p3995316

(14) I respond that Symmetry provided evidence that Wal-mart sells semi-automatic weapons, which, per the definition I've provided, are not assault rifles.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=450#p3995319

(15) Symmetry responds with a question - "The assault rifle used in the recent school shooting, we're referring to, right?"

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=450#p3995326

(16) I respond, again challenging Symmetry to provide some evidence that assault rifles are legal. I also respond with the wikipedia article regarding the gun used in the Newtown killings. It is a semi-automatic weapon. Under the definition I've given, it is therefore not an assault rifle.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=450#p3995336

(17) Symmtery provides two links. The first is to an LA Times article which refers to the weapon used in the Newtown killings as an assault rifle and then refers to it as a semi-automatic weapon. The second is a Reuters article that talks about the California state pension investment in the company that makes the Bushmaster weapon. The article has nothing in it about assault rifles.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=465#p3995353

(18) I point out, again, that the Bushmaster is not an assault rifle based on the definition I provided (heretofore the only definition of "assault rifle" provided in this thread that was supported by evidence). This negates the use of the LA Times article as persuasive evidence as the article uses the terms "semi-automatic" and "assault rifle" interchangeably and defines neither term. Similarly, the Reuters article does not mention the term "assault rifle." I show that Symmetry has not provided any evidence as to the definition of assault rifle with either link as neither link defines the term.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=465#p3995362

(19) Symmetry reiterates that he's given me evidence from a bunch of opinions - media, legal, and commercial. There were two commercial links and two media links. There was no legal link. None of those links define the term "assault rifle." All of those links refer to the term "semi-automatic weapon." Which, under the definition I provided of "assault rifle" (the only such definition provided with evidentiary backup), is not an assault rifle.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=465#p3995373

(20) I provide additional evidence in the form of links to ATF websites.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=465#p3995404

(21) Symmetry makes irrelevant remarks.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=465#p3995411

(22) I respond with reiteration (again).

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=465#p3995415

(23) Symmetry indicates he would like to have a rational discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=465#p3995419

(24) I ask what subject Symmetry would like to rationally discuss.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=465#p3995419

(25) Symmetry responds with the Britannica definition of the term "assault rifle." This is the first instance in 12 posts in which Symmetry provides evidence supporting a definition of the term "assault rifle." Symmetry does not post the entire definition, however. He merely posts that "in those countries where assault rifles can be purchased in the civilian market, their sale is subject to various restrictions, such as the elimination of automatic action and of the capacity to fire high-performance military ammunition."

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=465#p3995438

(26) I respond by quoting the entire Brittanica definition. The actual definition provides that "assault rifle" is a "miltary firearm that is chambered for ammunition of reduced size or propellant charges and that has the capacity to switch between semiautomatic and fully automatic fire." An assault rifle is therefore a weapon that has the capability for automatic fire. These weapons are already banned in the United States.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=465#p3995440

(27) Symmetry ignores my post (26). He instead refers to a defintion of "assault rifle" for which he has provided no evidence.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182634&start=480#p3995457

[crispybits]

If you refuse and shoot the guy who comes to take your gun away, what happens next? 10 guys come with bigger guns and take your gun away. You form a militia with some like minded people and hole up somewhere. they find out where you are and storm it. Your ragtag bunch of armed civilians somehow defeat the crack military squad. So they just blow you the hell up.

There is no way you win that fight in the end. Period. Therefore having a gun will not protect you.

It depends how popular that militia is.

Is it considered by the nation to be a fringe radical movement? No one cares.
Is it considered by the nation to be a popular movement? People care, it riles up further opposition, and civil war begins (or the government goes bat shit crazy like blowing up its own civilians and the international community gets involved.

I don't want to put words in peoples' mouths, but I think the assumption is that a well-armed militia would not be necessary or adivsable in the United States... ever. I suspect there are a number of rebellions, armed uprisings, defenses, and civil wars where one side relied heavily on well-armed militias.

The assumption is that a well armed militia would not be effective in the United States. The technology gap between civilian weaponry (and surely that's an oxymoron in itself) and military grade weaponry (including intangible weaponry like satellite feeds and propaganda campaigns) is simply too large.

The astounding success of America's regulars during the Gulf War highlights the fact that draftees-who are, as previously noted, better trained and equipped than the typical armed civilian-can no longer effectively confront professional armies, even when the civilians significantly outnumber the regulars. Like the collapse of Argentina's sizeable conscript forces in the face of Britain's highly-regarded professionals during the 1982 Falklands War, the crushing of Iraq's huge and well-armed conscript army demonstrates that the actual fighting of modem war is too sophisticated for anyone but the full-time professional to master.

The dismal combat record of amateur soldiers in recent clashes with professional militaries illustrates that warfare has changed fundamentally since the Second Amendment was drafted. When the Framers considered using armed civilians to confront a despotic standing army, they were living "in an age when the weapon likely to be found in private hands, the single shot musket or pistol, did not differ considerably from its military counterpart." Even more important was the way in which the Framers conceived of using the masses of civilians. Presaging the "nation at arms" strategy of the Napoleonic era, the Framers assumed that the military principle of mass would negate any deficiencies in quality. They believed that fire from masses of militiamen would overwhelm the arguably more accurate shooting of smaller numbers of regular forces. Modem technology has changed that equation. Military historian John Keegan maintains that "high technology weapons make large numbers of soldiers irrelevant."' Since at least the 1920s, America has sought "to substitute firepower for manpower" in the hopes of limiting casualties.' So successful has been the effort to use modem weaponry to leverage the combat power of small numbers of soldiers that Professor Keegan contends that masses of poorly trained combatants now "simply clutter up the battlefield."' According to Keegan, the Framers' concept of mass warfare is obsolete:

Indeed, when one looks back over the era of mass warfare, what is striking is how short it was-lasting only from the French Revolution to the end of the Second World War. The idea on which it was based, "every citizen a soldier," looks increasingly far-fetched; in truth, most people in Western societies make bad soldiers.

Even in the late eighteenth century, however, the military value of masses of armed civilians was suspect. General Washington did not believe that armed civilians, even when organized into partially-trained militias, could ever match the combat power of professional militaries:

No militia will ever acquire the habits necessary to resist a regular force ...T he firmness requisite for the real business of fighting is only to be obtained by a constant course of discipline and service. I have never yet been witness to a single instance that can justify a different opinion, and it is most earnestly to be wished that the liberties of America may no longer be trusted, in any material degree, to so precarious a dependence.

Contrary to the inferences of LaPierre and his adherents, twentieth century military history shows that the courage and determination of armed civilians can no longer overcome the discipline, training, and weaponry of professional soldiers. During World War II-the source of much mythology about civilian resistance movements springing to the defense of their homeland after their national armies fell to the Wehrmacht' ° - heroic civilians provided valuable intelligence and occasionally effective sabotage when acting in support of conventional allied forces. But when the guerrillas bore arms directly against the troops of the Third Reich, the military effectiveness of armed civilians typically ranged from "slight" to "disastrous." One expert notes that "bravery did not compensate for lack of heavy weapons and inadequate training against German regulars."

There was no shortage of bravery when over a million courageous citizens of Warsaw, Poland, revolted against Nazi tyranny in 1944. The German Army,- despite being drained by five years of war, was nevertheless able to crush the uprising, killing over 215,000 Polish civilians and Underground Army members in the process."' Although some partisan groups
elsewhere in Europe and Russia were able to avoid destruction by retreating to remote forests and mountains, none succeeded in overthrowing Nazi rule.'

Advocates who insist that the Second Amendment is still a viable check on tyranny often suggest that lightly-armed civilians could defeat modem armies by mounting a guerrilla war, selectively pointing to various twentieth century conflicts as evidence of the same." In reality, however, no insurgents armed only with the sort of personal weapons contemplated by the Second Amendment have prevailed, in a military sense, over any authentically modem army.

http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/vie ... cholarship

Revolt of the Masses: Armed Civilians and the Insurrectionary Theory of the Second Amendment
Colonel Charles J. Dunlap, Jr., USAF

[thegreekdog]

If you refuse and shoot the guy who comes to take your gun away, what happens next? 10 guys come with bigger guns and take your gun away. You form a militia with some like minded people and hole up somewhere. they find out where you are and storm it. Your ragtag bunch of armed civilians somehow defeat the crack military squad. So they just blow you the hell up.

There is no way you win that fight in the end. Period. Therefore having a gun will not protect you.

It depends how popular that militia is.

Is it considered by the nation to be a fringe radical movement? No one cares.
Is it considered by the nation to be a popular movement? People care, it riles up further opposition, and civil war begins (or the government goes bat shit crazy like blowing up its own civilians and the international community gets involved.

I don't want to put words in peoples' mouths, but I think the assumption is that a well-armed militia would not be necessary or adivsable in the United States... ever. I suspect there are a number of rebellions, armed uprisings, defenses, and civil wars where one side relied heavily on well-armed militias.

The assumption is that a well armed militia would not be effective in the United States. The technology gap between civilian weaponry (and surely that's an oxymoron in itself) and military grade weaponry (including intangible weaponry like satellite feeds and propaganda campaigns) is simply too large.

The astounding success of America's regulars during the Gulf War highlights the fact that draftees-who are, as previously noted, better trained and equipped than the typical armed civilian-can no longer effectively confront professional armies, even when the civilians significantly outnumber the regulars. Like the collapse of Argentina's sizeable conscript forces in the face of Britain's highly-regarded professionals during the 1982 Falklands War, the crushing of Iraq's huge and well-armed conscript army demonstrates that the actual fighting of modem war is too sophisticated for anyone but the full-time professional to master.

The dismal combat record of amateur soldiers in recent clashes with professional militaries illustrates that warfare has changed fundamentally since the Second Amendment was drafted. When the Framers considered using armed civilians to confront a despotic standing army, they were living "in an age when the weapon likely to be found in private hands, the single shot musket or pistol, did not differ considerably from its military counterpart." Even more important was the way in which the Framers conceived of using the masses of civilians. Presaging the "nation at arms" strategy of the Napoleonic era, the Framers assumed that the military principle of mass would negate any deficiencies in quality. They believed that fire from masses of militiamen would overwhelm the arguably more accurate shooting of smaller numbers of regular forces. Modem technology has changed that equation. Military historian John Keegan maintains that "high technology weapons make large numbers of soldiers irrelevant."' Since at least the 1920s, America has sought "to substitute firepower for manpower" in the hopes of limiting casualties.' So successful has been the effort to use modem weaponry to leverage the combat power of small numbers of soldiers that Professor Keegan contends that masses of poorly trained combatants now "simply clutter up the battlefield."' According to Keegan, the Framers' concept of mass warfare is obsolete:

Indeed, when one looks back over the era of mass warfare, what is striking is how short it was-lasting only from the French Revolution to the end of the Second World War. The idea on which it was based, "every citizen a soldier," looks increasingly far-fetched; in truth, most people in Western societies make bad soldiers.

Even in the late eighteenth century, however, the military value of masses of armed civilians was suspect. General Washington did not believe that armed civilians, even when organized into partially-trained militias, could ever match the combat power of professional militaries:

No militia will ever acquire the habits necessary to resist a regular force ...T he firmness requisite for the real business of fighting is only to be obtained by a constant course of discipline and service. I have never yet been witness to a single instance that can justify a different opinion, and it is most earnestly to be wished that the liberties of America may no longer be trusted, in any material degree, to so precarious a dependence.

Contrary to the inferences of LaPierre and his adherents, twentieth century military history shows that the courage and determination of armed civilians can no longer overcome the discipline, training, and weaponry of professional soldiers. During World War II-the source of much mythology about civilian resistance movements springing to the defense of their homeland after their national armies fell to the Wehrmacht' ° - heroic civilians provided valuable intelligence and occasionally effective sabotage when acting in support of conventional allied forces. But when the guerrillas bore arms directly against the troops of the Third Reich, the military effectiveness of armed civilians typically ranged from "slight" to "disastrous." One expert notes that "bravery did not compensate for lack of heavy weapons and inadequate training against German regulars."

There was no shortage of bravery when over a million courageous citizens of Warsaw, Poland, revolted against Nazi tyranny in 1944. The German Army,- despite being drained by five years of war, was nevertheless able to crush the uprising, killing over 215,000 Polish civilians and Underground Army members in the process."' Although some partisan groups
elsewhere in Europe and Russia were able to avoid destruction by retreating to remote forests and mountains, none succeeded in overthrowing Nazi rule.'

Advocates who insist that the Second Amendment is still a viable check on tyranny often suggest that lightly-armed civilians could defeat modem armies by mounting a guerrilla war, selectively pointing to various twentieth century conflicts as evidence of the same." In reality, however, no insurgents armed only with the sort of personal weapons contemplated by the Second Amendment have prevailed, in a military sense, over any authentically modem army.

http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/vie ... cholarship

Revolt of the Masses: Armed Civilians and the Insurrectionary Theory of the Second Amendment
Colonel Charles J. Dunlap, Jr., USAF

I don't disagree with that.

My point is that in the event there is a civil war, will it be fought between civilians and government or between two factions of government with civilian support? I don't anticipate a situation where the entirety of the US military would be in a position to take on a large group of civilians.

[Symmetry]

Well this is fun for all involved. I'm not sure if you're appealing to your invisible jury again TGD, or talking to me.

i think your biggest weakness is that semi-automatic assault rifles are still assault rifles, legally speaking, and commercially. Indeed the definition you choose to rely on says that simply making an assault rifle seni-automatic makes it a semi-automatic assault rifle,

In those countries where assault rifles can be purchased in the civilian market, their sale is subject to various restrictions, such as the elimination of automatic action and of the capacity to fire high-performance military ammunition.

That would be the definition you're relying on. I could go on, but frankly, i'd like to appeal to my own invisible jury and ask if it's worth the bother.

Members of the invisible court, should I bother?

[crispybits]

In the event of civil war, then whichever side gets more of the highly trained and insanely well equipped army will win. Only in the event of the army being split down the middle would civilian power be decisive. And he likelihood of that happening is almost non-existent. The chain of command might suffer a few cracks and lose a few splinter groups here and there, but the way they are trained means that the body of the army will go wherever the head tells it to.

[thegreekdog]

In the event of civil war, then whichever side gets more of the highly trained and insanely well equipped army will win. Only in the event of the army being split down the middle would civilian power be decisive. And he likelihood of that happening is almost non-existent. The chain of command might suffer a few cracks and lose a few splinter groups here and there, but the way they are trained means that the body of the army will go wherever the head tells it to.

I don't think that's true. Witness, for example, the Vietnam conflict, the Iraq war, the recent "Arab spring" developments.

[thegreekdog]

Well this is fun for all involved. I'm not sure if you're appealing to your invisible jury again TGD, or talking to me.

i think your biggest weakness is that semi-automatic assault rifles are still assault rifles, legally speaking, and commercially. Indeed the definition you choose to rely on says that simply making an assault rifle seni-automatic makes it a semi-automatic assault rifle,

In those countries where assault rifles can be purchased in the civilian market, their sale is subject to various restrictions, such as the elimination of automatic action and of the capacity to fire high-performance military ammunition.

That would be the definition you're relying on. I could go on, but frankly, i'd like to appeal to my own invisible jury and ask if it's worth the bother.

Members of the invisible court, should I bother?

I think your biggest weakness is the pigheaded refusal to admit that you're wrong about something. Admittedly, it takes a mature person to do that, although it should not take a mature person confronted with reams of evidence and offering none of their own to reach a conclusion that they are wrong.

That quoted language you've pulled from Britannica online is actually not the definition. The definition of "assault rifle" from Britannica online is the language I've quoted, which states, specifically, that an assault rifle is "a military firearm that is chambered for ammunition of reduced size or propellant charge and that has the capacity to switch between semiautomatic and fully automatic fire." The AR-15 and the Bushmaster rifle used by the Newtown killer are not military firearms and are not able to switch between semiautomatic and fully automatic fire. Therefore, they are not assault rifles based on the definitions of three sources: Britannica online, the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, and Wikipedia. As I've demonstrated through the ATF website and Wikipedia, assault rifles are banned for sale in the United States.

Your desire to ban assault rifles is misplaced given that such weapons have been banned in the United States since 1986.

Would you like to ban all semi-automatic rifles, no semi-automatic rifles, or some semi-automatic rifles? If the last, which ones would you like to ban?