Juan and Insomnia Red

[Juan_Bottom]

I want to add though, for ljex or any other Mod willing to come in here and make a stated opinion on the controversy, that I have a firm respect for that at least. It can't be easy to defend Insomnia in the forum where the professional arguers (and one great Pun maker) live and battle.

[jonesthecurl]

Perhaps it could be stated exactly what JB did, instead of just "You KNOW" - 'cos he doesn't seem to and we all don't.
I don't want to find I'm banned cos I mention Madagascar or pork scratchings or rush hour or something - could be anything at the moment.

[Juan_Bottom]

^Que the great Pun maker! lol

[jonesthecurl]

I think you've been punnished enough now.

[nagerous]

Seriously, this ban ended ages ago, it was only for 72 hours! Why are you still acting like some kind of crazed martyr that has been the first person ever in society to have possibly been maltreated in a certain way. Not to mention that you received your ban actually for trolling, which there was great justification for.

You are now just using this thread for you and buddies such as 'herkman' to take pipeshots and baits at insomnia. This thread should've been locked ages ago, there is no flame wars on this site any more.

[nietzsche]

Seriously, this ban ended ages ago, it was only for 72 hours! Why are you still acting like some kind of crazed martyr that has been the first person ever in society to have possibly been maltreated in a certain way. Not to mention that you received your ban actually for trolling, which there was great justification for.

You are now just using this thread for you and buddies such as 'herkman' to take pipeshots and baits at insomnia. This thread should've been locked ages ago, there is no flame wars on this site any more.

You are not thinking with your big head.

[Juan_Bottom]

>If you're wondering what nag has invested in this look at his location. "InsomniaRed"<


It isn't the ban that is the focus here, it's bad moderating and lying. I've evidenced pretty well that Insomnia is lying. And that Admin is lying and protecting her. They admitted quietly to themselves that her banning me was unjustified. They told Darwin to be more careful in the future. But they wont lift the ban or even respond to my ticket. Why should we go quietly?

I received the ban for racism and trolling. You can read Darwin's PM to me that says I was banned for racism. You can read Insomnia's PM telling me I was banned for racism and trolling. Insomnia has tried to focus on trolling that she apparently didn't screencap to try to take the focus off the racism. Banning me for trolling is even worse than banning me for racism... There's no proof that I ever trolled anyone. I even predicted that she would try that trick. She never warned me about trolling, and she didn't save any evidence that I ever did. In court, that bullsh*t would be thrown the hell out.

[nagerous]

That is not the reason I invested in this, I invested in this because I have a chat moderator status as well and can therefore see what red posted in the forum and I know that the decisions made by my peers are not undertaken lightly.

From what I can see you were talking in capitals and being obnoxious towards a particular user, and insomnia also put in her original post that she couldn't printscreen more of your trollish behaviour as it was off the screen. I also have beared witness to your trollish behaviour on several occasions beforehand, talking in capitals and being obnoxious, and on those occasions you were not kicked when it was often perhaps justifiably show.

I think in this case you are 'crying martyr' and seeking attention because of the current climate on this website that the moderators are some form of 'nazi' which as you sure know is the most vile and horrible analogy anyone could think to make. You accuse Insomnia of being coniving and manipulative, which are unfounded accusations, when you in fact cannot admit that your behaviour in the chatroom was less than angelic.

[denominator]

It entirely defeats the purpose of the e-ticket and appeals system when it is just ignored for the duration of the ban.

Furthermore, even though Juan's ban has ended, the issue still matters because Juan now faces a longer ban if he ever breaks the rules again. While he may be wrong in the future, it's not fair to punish him longer for a mistaken ban at this point.

Again, I ask, why are the moderators allowed to ban Juan without providing evidence beyond "you know what you did"? Either the moderators simply don't have that evidence, or, as you imply, it has been posted in the private forums and withheld from the bannee. You can withhold evidence from those of us in the forums, but you can't from Juan. It's his right to know why he was banned, and "you know" just doesn't cut it.

[rdsrds2120]

Bah. This thread has gone to a bit of trolling since my last lookover. Before this escalates anymore, I'm going to lock to be safe rather than sorry. All that's said has apparently been said as most posts seem to be echoing some type of regurgitation which, as stated, only escalates into trolling. Hopefully, any issues someone has will be fixed soon enough, but we can't make everyone happy - remember this.

Edit: After some much needed peer review, I am unlocking this thread. My apologies for the bumpy start - I'm seeing that SIB needs to take the more "hands-off" approach now. Continue to post as you please, just don't let much trolling ensue and all that jazz.

-rd

[ljex]

Also on your chat ban, I have talked to insomnia about this and she has assured me that there is more too this before whatever screen shot was posted in here.

Yeah, but you gotta take a step back and put this into perspective. You gotta start from the beginning. If I was acting inappropriately earlier in chat isn't it likely that one of the competent Mods in there would have warned me sooner? I've never been warned in my whole chat history. From the very beginning Insomnia refused to tell me even why I was even banned! I disclosed everything that I had believed happened (from memory) to the public to force her hand. I've been extremely honest from the start. I eventually had to go to Darwin to find out why I was banned, and he thinks I was banned for racism. I then posted the chat log that is the evidence used against me. As I predicted, Insomnia tried to take the emphasis off of racism, and say that I was trolling. The case against me is insanely weak, so Insomnia has invented a story where I was trolling earlier in chat. The problem with giving InsomniaRed the benefit of the doubt is that I've been honest from the very start and she hasn't. Furthermore, how can anyone argue their innocence if you allow for secret or even unrecorded evidence to be used against them? Isn't it her job to provide all of the evidence as to why she banned someone? Do Mods even need evidence anymore? She and Darwin don't even seem to agree on why I was banned. That's why Insomnia refused to tell me why I was banned; she didn't have a good reason and knew that If she shared it with me that I would expose her as a liar.

Juan I know enough about you to know that you have trolled in the past and are very nearly trolling in this thread, so when Insomnia says that you were trolling and they have evidence in the Chat forum i believe her not only because I trust her not banning someone for no reason but because I know very well that you can stir up shit in the forms for a well deserved punishment (Case in point the LV case, you were in the wrong and it became a huge thing in the forums). This is not to say that i am certain this is the case here, just that with the evidence/testimonials i have been presented with I'm inclined to believe insomniareds side of of the story...

Either way that "joke" was uncalled for in my opinion,

You, or anyone else is more than welcome to explain just how it was a racist joke. It was an incomplete comment about a culture, not a race. To look around and see racism where it isn't is to be a racist yourself.
I wasn't banned for making racist jokes, I was banned because Darwin had interpreted it as racist. I never got to argue anything different before I was banned. You can clearly read me saying "WTF are you talking about Darwin" in the chat log. He didn't answer either.

This joke is not necessarily racist but it is definitely in poor taste...you are making generalizations about a group of people based on culture, nationality, race...whatever you want to call it. Either way i think the forms/live chat are a better place without such comments and i'm sure there are many people out there who agree with me. Quite simply you never know when someone is going to take offense to such a joke and things are going to escalating so some things are better left unsaid for the simple fact that it reduces arguments that may lead to flames etc. and many people (myself included) don't find such jokes funny but rather annoying due to their nature.

That said i trust when insomniared tells me that there is more to the ban, i just figure i would give my thoughts on what has been provided on evidence.

I keep hearing this (only from Mods - once again it's the Mods VS the public) and it's utter bullsh*t. How can you give the benefit of the doubt to someone who's been lying from the start? I've told nothing but the truth and my story hasn't changed. I can't argue against secret or non-existent evidence. These statements are as shallow as they come. You know, she said that I was lying when I posted from memory, but I guess it's ok though when she remembers times that I trolled and she didn't even give me a warning.
Here's some quote's from Insomnia about why it's not fair that I use evidence based on memory:

Your 'evidence' was a poorly transcribed, biased version of the parts you 'remember'.

I am sorry we didn't do what you did and write things up to the best of our memory, as that would look unprofessional.

Yet somehow it's ok if she uses her memories to judge me...

I keep hearing this term mods vs the public all around the forms in different ways but could it possibly be public vs the mods? Its not like we go around looking to ban people and lately it seems like any time a mod takes any action the public gets all up in arms about it...

How can i give Insomnia the benefit of the doubt? There are multiple people with access to the relevant information that say the ban was warranted so I'm not just giving here the benefit of the doubt but all those people who have told me that you deserved a ban. Also at the you we rent given a warning, I go in chat often enough to know that when people start to be intentionally be annoying the chat mods post saying stop doing x or something along those lines. That is your warning and you even received one in the screenshot shown in this thread. Those are warnings and I myself even received one today...you need to look at what you are doing and stop or sterner action will be taken.

And anyway, one thing that we're really lacking her is some Mod insight as to how they interpret what I said as racism. So if you want to post about how you'd interpret it you're more than welcome to. If you compare my quote to "the former Mods" quote mine looks about as innocent as it gets.

I actually remember that statement and the discussion that went on as a result (I can't really go into much detail), but in the end do you really think he meant for it to sound the way it did or do you think he was posing the eventual question why is there a double standard? That was the discussion and the eventual conclusion was that a few missed words had caused the post to sound different than it was intended. Furthermore your statement was not racist it was just in poor taste as i have said earlier in this thread. Essentially they are very similar, on the fine line the only difference in my eyes is that yours was intended for humor (and due to this intended to generalize a group of people) while the post you have quoted was not intended to be "racist" (i use this term loosely as its not really racism but the improper generalization of a group of people) but actually pose a question to readers about how some have a double standard. To me this is a big difference and i would assume that many people agree with me. As is often the case things are not black and white and many things must be taken into consideration with these things, while i may view things one way you may view them differently and thus the hardest part of moderating any forum...what was the users intent when posting.

Anyway after some discussion im going to unlock this but please keep in mind this thread is on a very short leash so keep your posts relevant and dont troll/bait/flame

[theherkman]

Here we go. Mods locking the damn thread again, because FLAME REMOVED. Good job, value-added FLAME REMOVED. Probably couldn't FLAME REMOVED your own FLAME REMOVED so you decided to FLAME REMOVED the people of CC for FLAME REMOVED the FLAME REMOVED.

Anyway... Mods don't make mistakes...

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=131475&p=2882766#p2882766

[Fircoal]

I did not want to give my opinion earlier as I did not want to take sides however I wish to do so now. For reference I will repost the chat here:

23:13:10 ‹Juan_Bottom› You must be exhausted! Are you Chinese?
14/11/2010 23:13:19 ‹BDPuddles› no ausralian
14/11/2010 23:13:26 ‹Fldmrshl. Rhiley› ....
14/11/2010 23:13:31 ‹Fldmrshl. Rhiley› Juan that was messed up.
14/11/2010 23:13:32 ‹Juan_Bottom› Of course not... only 6 hrs what was I thinking
14/11/2010 23:13:36 ‹BDPuddles› im exhausted cause o have been awake for 2 days now lol
14/11/2010 23:13:48 ‹BDPuddles› i*
14/11/2010 23:13:51 ‹Darwins_Bane› Juan_Bottom, no need to be racist
14/11/2010 23:13:52 ‹Juan_Bottom› Now that's Australian
14/11/2010 23:14:01 * draca joins Social
14/11/2010 23:14:02 ‹Juan_Bottom› Darwins_Bane, what are you talking about?
14/11/2010 23:14:16 ‹BDPuddles› it is cause im already on the beers again lol
14/11/2010 23:14:30 ‹Juan_Bottom› BDPuddles, hi-five
14/11/2010 23:14:38 ‹BDPuddles›
14/11/2010 23:14:53 ‹Juan_Bottom› DID YOU JUST TELL ME TO TALK TO THE HAND?
14/11/2010 23:15:02 ‹Juan_Bottom› AFTER I OFFERED YOU A HI-FIVE?
14/11/2010 23:15:14 ‹draca› XD
14/11/2010 23:15:14 ‹Juan_Bottom› A HI-FIVE OF FREINDSHIP?
14/11/2010 23:15:17 ‹BDPuddles› if you wanna take it that way sure
14/11/2010 23:15:18 * tomzo46 quit (timeout)
14/11/2010 23:15:21 ‹InsomniaRed› Okay Juan_Bottom, with the racism and the intentional trolling, I gotta say...bye bye.
14/11/2010 23:15:24 ‹BDPuddles› lol
14/11/2010 23:15:26 * Juan_Bottom quit (kicked from Social by InsomniaRed - reason: you know why)

Looking at the jokes that you made they do reference a culture which, while it may not be a race in itself, it does follow the same sort of rules in a way. Someone is just as likely to be offended by something that is offensive to their culture than something offensive to their race. Both are tricky subjects. Same as religion. Because of this these subjects can be difficult to tread at times. The jokes that you said, while I did not find them bad myself, I can understand how someone could be offended by reading them. Thusly I think there could have been reason to ban IF you had actually gotten a warning and your queries answered. I feel that the live chat mods needed to tell you what they felt was wrong and give you a proper warning rather than ban you right off the bat. Otherwise nothing is learned and we don't know for sure if this is a honest mistake, a differing point of view (which it looks like to me) or a real troll. Putting all with a "record" as a troll is a vast oversight.

Although me and my none modness, would not have banned you, I can see why they frowned upon it. However they went about the situation wrongly. Communication is the key of life. It should be used.

[theherkman]

No, stop! Fircoal, they did NOT go about the situation wrongly! The value-added mods provide our forums with an added value. SAFETY!

[BigBallinStalin]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=131145&start=90#p2882752



Recommended reading.

[theherkman]

TL:DR

[BigBallinStalin]

Heh, you can be an immature kid and yell about modz bein unfaire too!

[TheSaxlad]

Locked, Due to the fact that Juans ban ended a while ago and all this thread serves to do is flame insomniared.

LOCKED.