Post Any Evidence For God Here

[Woodruff]

Evolution 101:
Definition of Evolution; = An attempt to explain Creation, without a Creator.

That is a horribly illogical and agenda-driven definition, to be honest. Why do you feel the need to be dishonest?

The Bible specifically states that man is a special creation. Evolution claims that it was all an accident of mutations and natural selection. The two are dynamically opposed to each other.

No, they absolutely are not dynamically opposed to each other. Why couldn't God have used the process of evolution to create man? Frankly, as far as I can see, it would go a great long ways to explaining some of the things that religious folks have difficulty "explaining away".

The Bible states that God created man in one day. Evolution would have you believe that the process took millions if not billions of years if you include the primordial oceans from which the first single cell organisms arose in. Both can not be in any kind of an agreement any where up and down this road.

Who is to say what "a day" is to God? Are you playing God again, Viceroy? You do seem to have a habit of that.

The argument of intelligent design is what Darwinist oppose because it implies a designer.

No. What I am describing is NOT "Intelligent Design". I'm familiar with that bunch of hokus.

A designer then means creation and not evolution. By definition, they are both contrast to each other and can not be the same.

No. No matter how many times you say it, your saying it doesn't make it true. So please stop saying it.

It would make no sense for a God who but with a word (Like a Star Trek Transporter) can cause the creation of all of the universe to choose a mechanism that would take millions of years???

Are you playing at God again, Viceroy? Are you pretending you know the mind of God? You seem to have an awful habit of doing that. You should really stop.

You clearly don't understand even the basics of evolution, and I am beginning to seriously question if you even understand the basics of your own religion.

[Viceroy63]

Evolution 101:
Definition of Evolution; = An attempt to explain Creation, without a Creator.

That is a horribly illogical and agenda-driven definition, to be honest. Why do you feel the need to be dishonest?

The Bible specifically states that man is a special creation. Evolution claims that it was all an accident of mutations and natural selection. The two are dynamically opposed to each other.

No, they absolutely are not dynamically opposed to each other. Why couldn't God have used the process of evolution to create man? Frankly, as far as I can see, it would go a great long ways to explaining some of the things that religious folks have difficulty "explaining away".

The Bible states that God created man in one day. Evolution would have you believe that the process took millions if not billions of years if you include the primordial oceans from which the first single cell organisms arose in. Both can not be in any kind of an agreement any where up and down this road.

Who is to say what "a day" is to God? Are you playing God again, Viceroy? You do seem to have a habit of that.

The argument of intelligent design is what Darwinist oppose because it implies a designer.

No. What I am describing is NOT "Intelligent Design". I'm familiar with that bunch of hokus.

A designer then means creation and not evolution. By definition, they are both contrast to each other and can not be the same.

No. No matter how many times you say it, your saying it doesn't make it true. So please stop saying it.

It would make no sense for a God who but with a word (Like a Star Trek Transporter) can cause the creation of all of the universe to choose a mechanism that would take millions of years???

Are you playing at God again, Viceroy? Are you pretending you know the mind of God? You seem to have an awful habit of doing that. You should really stop.

You clearly don't understand even the basics of evolution, and I am beginning to seriously question if you even understand the basics of your own religion.

Then why don't you take the time to explain the basics to everyone since you state that you have such a clear grasp of the knowledge instead of just saying, "Wrong, I told you so???"

You are not even trying to discuss this at all. Are you?

At least Player writes a thousand pages about the ingredients in a chewing gum wrapper but you just make pretend that you are all of that, and then it's off to bed???

[tzor]

I'll ask for the 4th time. What is the first verse you take literally in the Bible? This isn't a tough question. Why is this so hard to communicate with you.. argh

And I thought I answered that question. There is no "verse" in the bible where everything becomes literal after that verse. None. There are verses that should be considered literally and those that should be taken symbolically. They are often mixed together.

[tzor]

My explanation would be that this never happened. If it had occurred it would have been all over the news, small town or no. Likely somebody told your father that this happened when it actually didn't.

Medical "miracles" actually happen all the time. First law of Reporters - Good News doesn't sell papers.

[universalchiro]

I'll ask for the 4th time. What is the first verse you take literally in the Bible? This isn't a tough question. Why is this so hard to communicate with you.. argh

And I thought I answered that question. There is no "verse" in the bible where everything becomes literal after that verse. None. There are verses that should be considered literally and those that should be taken symbolically. They are often mixed together.

Evading to the last...
The question is what is the 1st verse in the Bible that you take literally. I'm not saying every verse after that you are taking literally, I'm simply and for the 5th time, asking what is the 1st verse in the Bible you take literally...
Shesh, this is ridiculous that you are so evasive and illusive, what are you afraid of? Just answer the simple question.

[Gabriel13]

Well, since he asked for "proof", I will give you "proof".
While in Peru, my father was in a small city where there was a girl paralyzed from the neck down. Being on a mission trip, one of the missionaries prayed for the girl asking that God may heal her. Not much long after, the girl stood up and began to walk.

I know this won't change anything, but you asked for proof, and I'd like to see if somebody can come up with a different explanation for this than some form of higher power.

1. Is this story true? And how do you know?

2. How long is "not much long after"? A few hours? One week? Several months? A year?

3. Was the girl getting any kind of medical treatment? Or was she left there with nothing?

4. The bigger question will help us control for confirmation bias: Of the total instances similar to this one, how many times did prayer alone work, and how many times did it fail?

5. And even if the prayer itself works, is that evidence of God exerting his magical powers on the girl, or is it because the girl used the morale boost to recover more quickly?

1.It is true. My father has no reason to lie about this, and would never just do it.

2.Maybe a couple minutes? He didn't say specifically, but I know that it was less than 5 minutes.

3.No, she was not getting any treatment. She was too poor to do so.

4.I don't know the answer to that, and neither does anybody else. I know it has worked many more times though.

5. You cannot use morale boost to become completely unparalyzed..

[universalchiro]

Viceroy, Just to be 100% clear here,are you saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Hitler,or any fanatical tyrant,after a lifetime of evildoing to sincerely repent and accept Jesus as their personal saviour?If so,how do you know this?Where is the cut off point in terms of evil?

This is a fair question:
There was a guy in the Bible that was persecuting the church, he was having believers stoned alive, he was at the trial of Jesus demanding for Him to be crucified, he reported to the high priest and requested and received papers to imprison those he didn't have stoned.
Acts 7:54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep. Ch 8:18 And Saul approved of their killing him. The Church Persecuted and Scattered
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2 Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison. Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.

[Then something happened to Saul that changed the course of the early church]

3 As Saul neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?” 5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” 7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything."


Saul was persecuting the church so severely that in his own words, after his conversion, being inspired by God wrote this:
1 Timothy 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Paul declares he was the worst sinner of all. The NASB use the term foremost sinner of all. The NKJV uses the term Chief among sinners. The concept is the same. That Paul was the greatest sinner of all time.

Which means if the worst sinner can be saved, than so too can other seemingly vial villains that will be less sinners than the chief of all sinners.

Let's see if a last second conversion is acceptable? How about the thief on the cross. He was only able to confess, no acts to authenticate his conversion, no baptism, nothing. He just confessed Jesus as Lord.
Luke 23:One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

This is hard to accept that one who spends their whole life serving God, gets into heaven just the same as one who accepts Christ as Lord and savior in their last breath? Let's see if there is support for this:
Matthew 20: 20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like [a]a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 When he had agreed with the laborers for a [b]denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the [c]third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ And so they went. 5 Again he went out about the [d]sixth and the ninth hour, and did [e]the same thing. 6 And about the [f]eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he *said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’ 7 They *said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He *said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’

8 “When evening came, the [g]owner of the vineyard *said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’ 9 When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a [h]denarius. 10 When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; [i]but each of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye [j]envious because I am [k]generous?’

So there are the answers to the question. Yes, if an evil tyrant confesses Jesus as Lord and Savior with his last breath, he will enter heaven all the same as one that has been serving God from their youth. Of course their rewards in heaven will be different for that is based on righteous acts while on earth. but even the last second confession of the rankest person, still is less sinful than Paul, who was the worst sinner that became saved.

What I think is hanging Viceroy up is the demon possessed person. For a demon possessed person would have to be excised first prior to salvation. No two kingdoms (Satan and God) dwell in the same person. A saved person can not be demon possessed, they can be in bondage to demons resulting from sin, but no demon can possess a saved person. So Viceroy's premise is that Hitler was demon possessed. This has high probability, but no one knows for sure what happened in the last hours of his life. So that's why we leave matters of who is saved and who is not into the hands of God. For only God can discern every heart rightly. We can only judge by someones actions and words whether they are producing fruit of a child of God or producing fruits of a child Satan. Christ made it perfectly clear, there is no middle of the road, no non-participants. Jesus said, you are either for Me or against Me. And all those that deny Me, I will deny before My Father. So is it possible for Hitler to be saved? Yes. Luke 18:27 “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.”

Salvation is a free gift, nothing you can do to earn it, it is through faith alone, Christ alone by Grace alone. Not of our works, lest we should boast.

[waauw]

Well, since he asked for "proof", I will give you "proof".
While in Peru, my father was in a small city where there was a girl paralyzed from the neck down. Being on a mission trip, one of the missionaries prayed for the girl asking that God may heal her. Not much long after, the girl stood up and began to walk.

I know this won't change anything, but you asked for proof, and I'd like to see if somebody can come up with a different explanation for this than some form of higher power.

1. Is this story true? And how do you know?

2. How long is "not much long after"? A few hours? One week? Several months? A year?

3. Was the girl getting any kind of medical treatment? Or was she left there with nothing?

4. The bigger question will help us control for confirmation bias: Of the total instances similar to this one, how many times did prayer alone work, and how many times did it fail?

5. And even if the prayer itself works, is that evidence of God exerting his magical powers on the girl, or is it because the girl used the morale boost to recover more quickly?

1.It is true. My father has no reason to lie about this, and would never just do it.

2.Maybe a couple minutes? He didn't say specifically, but I know that it was less than 5 minutes.

3.No, she was not getting any treatment. She was too poor to do so.

4.I don't know the answer to that, and neither does anybody else. I know it has worked many more times though.

5. You cannot use morale boost to become completely unparalyzed..

Yes and in the streets of the big cities you see people acting like customers to street-artists, when they are actually working together. To be honest this is not proof unless it's been done with scientific monitoring.

[universalchiro]

So tzor, do you think we're into the End Times /Last Days right now? How about you other faithful?
We have two yes opinions.
Nobody's yet said whether they expect the "Rapture" first, I understand that the idea is not accepted by the majority of Christians.

Are we in the "end times": This has been answered "yes" by every generation from the disciples that walked and talked with Christ till today. So are we? Are we in the so called end times? Well the simple is yes. For each day that passes gets us that much closer. But to be more objective than just blind faith, let's add some credence that separates these times from other times.

The entire Old Testament was veiled regarding a 1st and 2nd coming. When studying the Old Testament, there was just indications of one coming. The Clarity that their was two comings, was not revealed until after Jesus died on the cross and rose again. It was like, God was willing to set up His Kingdom right then and there had the Jews accepted Christ. But they rejected Him. This is a fascinating study and one I have enjoyed talking with pastors about. It's not widely discussed, nor know. But when one reads the New Testament, you'll find many phrases of a mystery revealed, the hidden mystery, etc. Okay, I'm way off topic. Sorry.

The prophecy of the kingdom of God, was that it would be in Israel. Well, Israel was an occupied and concurred place since King Nebuchadnezzar in 600BC. And when Hitler was murdering the Jews in WW2, the Jews were endangered of extinction had Hitler continued. But at one of their bleakest hours, when the Jews were at their most desperate time, God makes them a nation in 1948. So this was a huge step towards the end times, because God is to dwell in Israel. Well if they aren't a nation, then that's not happening. This fits.

But the prophecy of the coming of the kingdom of God, is that God dwells specifically in Jerusalem. Well Israel, though a nation, didn't have Jerusalem until 1967. So that prepares the way for another step closer. This fits.

But the prophecy says that proceeding the revealing of the Final Anti-Christ, one possessed by Satan, this will be at the Abomination of Desolation. Well such an abomination may be sacrificing pigs on the alter of the temple, or child sacrifice on the same or sexual orgies on the same. Either way, this indicates a built temple. Which it's not built. In fact a Muslim Mosque resides on the preferred location of prior temples. So I don't know how this plays out. But I do know that Israel has already designed, built all the internal aspects of the future temple and are prepared to build in a moments notice. This needs the temple built, so more time is required.

In the end times, there will be earthquakes. Matthew 24... But there has always been earthquakes. So the question is: Are the frequency and amplitude of earthquakes increasing? Are there increases in Tsunamis, are there increases in other natural disasters? Seems to fit, but may need more time.

In the end times, there will be a falling away from God. Matthew 24... There are many that claim to be saved, but many don't even know who Jesus is, whether He is a created being or God, many can not even defend their faith. So though many proclaim to be saved, are they? This fits.

In the end times, there will be pestilences. Matthew 24... There have always been diseases. But how many of them have been incurable. Unknown, may need more time with this one.

In the end times, Knowledge will increase. Daniel 12:4... Knowledge has been exponentially increasing. This fits.

In the end times, people will go to and fro quickly. Daniel 12:4... Travel times have definitely gotten shorter. This fits.

In the end times, it will be as it was in the days of Noah. Luke 17:26... So how was it in the days of Noah? Genesis 6 tells us that mankind had evil thoughts continuously. Do we have that today? Well, there are more abortions (125,000 per day [http://www.worldometers.info/abortions/]) , more immorality, drug use, idolatry, etc than prior generations. So this seems to fit.

There are some more stuff, but you get the gist. We are closer than prior generation, but can't say for certain. Just make the when a mute point and get ready. Prepare the heart for the Jesus, confess Him as Lord and Savior and receive eternal life, then it doesn't matter when He comes...

[waauw]

One of those stages would be to accept that Humans evolved out of stones and mud rather than to accept the simple truth that God created us.

lolololol, your own bible states that your deity made humans out of dust.

Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed a man[a] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Thank You! That is absolutely correct. Man was created from the dirt of the ground and God breathed the breath of life into the nostril or lungs of man. This story tells the fact that man is a specially crafted creation and that God placed thoughts into the creation of mankind. The short version is that Man is a created being by the very hands and life giving force of God and not that Man evolved over millenniums from the hydrogen rich atmosphere in a primordial soups of methane and ammonia that in no way could support life as we know it in the first place!

And then it was also an "accident" as well?

Which is more ridiculous to believe?

• the plurial of 'milleniums' is 'millennia, it's derived from latin
• you do realise that when scientists call something 'accident' or 'random', they actually refer to highly complex causalities, which would seem very chaotic at first glance.
• Also, I don't think you realise how strong some organisms are. There are even organisms living in volcanoes and geisers.
• Lastly you keep on telling evolution isn't a fact, but a theory. But the same goes for creationism. There is no 100% conclusive and undisputable proof for it, so stop calling it "fact".

[waauw]

The prophecy of the kingdom of God, was that it would be in Israel. Well, Israel was an occupied and concurred place since King Nebuchadnezzar in 600BC. And when Hitler was murdering the Jews in WW2, the Jews were endangered of extinction had Hitler continued. But at one of their bleakest hours, when the Jews were at their most desperate time, God makes them a nation in 1948. So this was a huge step towards the end times, because God is to dwell in Israel. Well if they aren't a nation, then that's not happening. This fits.

There was a genocide of the jews yes, but they were far from close to getting extinct. The germans couldn't even touch the jews in the US. So don't exagerate with your statements. Also your God didnt make them a nation in 1948. It was the UN that let the jews go back to the middle-east and form a state, not some deity. They even considered just placing them in Argentina, Uganda and several other places.

In the end times, there will be earthquakes. Matthew 24... But there has always been earthquakes. So the question is: Are the frequency and amplitude of earthquakes increasing? Are there increases in Tsunamis, are there increases in other natural disasters? Seems to fit, but may need more time.

I agree with tsunami's, but earthquakes? There is no increase in either magnitude or frequency of earthquakes(British Geological Survey):
http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/earthquakes/earthquakeActivity.html

In the end times, it will be as it was in the days of Noah. Luke 17:26... So how was it in the days of Noah? Genesis 6 tells us that mankind had evil thoughts continuously. Do we have that today? Well, there are more abortions (125,000 per day [http://www.worldometers.info/abortions/]) , more immorality, drug use, idolatry, etc than prior generations. So this seems to fit.

In absolute numbers this will all probably be true. But I'm not sure that on a percentual basis the drug use and immorality is bigger too..

[Woodruff]

It would make no sense for a God who but with a word (Like a Star Trek Transporter) can cause the creation of all of the universe to choose a mechanism that would take millions of years???

Are you playing at God again, Viceroy? Are you pretending you know the mind of God? You seem to have an awful habit of doing that. You should really stop.

You clearly don't understand even the basics of evolution, and I am beginning to seriously question if you even understand the basics of your own religion.

Then why don't you take the time to explain the basics to everyone since you state that you have such a clear grasp of the knowledge instead of just saying, "Wrong, I told you so???"

I did already. I know you have difficulty with the concept of bothering to read what others write to you, but you should try it.

You are not even trying to discuss this at all. Are you?

The irony must be astounding to you.

At least Player writes a thousand pages about the ingredients in a chewing gum wrapper but you just make pretend that you are all of that, and then it's off to bed???

Is there a reason you keep speaking for God as if you know his mind while simultaneously making the statement to non-believers that the reason we can't understand something is because "we can't know how God thinks"? I mean, your hypocricy is really phenomenal.

[Woodruff]

I'll ask for the 4th time. What is the first verse you take literally in the Bible? This isn't a tough question. Why is this so hard to communicate with you.. argh

And I thought I answered that question. There is no "verse" in the bible where everything becomes literal after that verse. None. There are verses that should be considered literally and those that should be taken symbolically. They are often mixed together.

Evading to the last...
The question is what is the 1st verse in the Bible that you take literally. I'm not saying every verse after that you are taking literally, I'm simply and for the 5th time, asking what is the 1st verse in the Bible you take literally...

If that is the case, why does it matter if it's the first one in the Bible that applies? Why not simply ask him for A verse that he takes literally? Honestly, you give the appearance of trying to set him up for something.

[Woodruff]

Are we in the "end times": This has been answered "yes" by every generation from the disciples that walked and talked with Christ till today. So are we? Are we in the so called end times? Well the simple is yes. For each day that passes gets us that much closer.

Oh good Lord. <facepalm>

The prophecy of the kingdom of God, was that it would be in Israel. Well, Israel was an occupied and concurred place since King Nebuchadnezzar in 600BC. And when Hitler was murdering the Jews in WW2, the Jews were endangered of extinction had Hitler continued. But at one of their bleakest hours, when the Jews were at their most desperate time, God makes them a nation in 1948. So this was a huge step towards the end times, because God is to dwell in Israel. Well if they aren't a nation, then that's not happening. This fits.

It also "fits" that humans engineer things to try to fit what they think should be". For instance...if the Bible did not exist, would the state of Israel have been created? I think that we can easily look to the history of other holocausts and say that it would not have been. In other words, Israel was essentially only created because of the Bible and its prophecies. They made the peg to fit into the hole.

In the end times, there will be a falling away from God. Matthew 24... There are many that claim to be saved, but many don't even know who Jesus is, whether He is a created being or God, many can not even defend their faith. So though many proclaim to be saved, are they? This fits.

You have no idea how well.

In the end times, Knowledge will increase. Daniel 12:4... Knowledge has been exponentially increasing. This fits.

Well hell...This stuff smacks of desperation.

In the end times, it will be as it was in the days of Noah. Luke 17:26... So how was it in the days of Noah? Genesis 6 tells us that mankind had evil thoughts continuously. Do we have that today? Well, there are more abortions (125,000 per day [http://www.worldometers.info/abortions/]) , more immorality, drug use, idolatry, etc than prior generations. So this seems to fit.

You have statistical proof of this increase in immorality and idolatry? Because I'm not really buying it.

There are some more stuff, but you get the gist. We are closer than prior generation

Isn't that essentially unavoidable? I mean...seriously?

[Viceroy63]

Universalchiro's Comment:

show

I would like to add that Paul was killing Christians, not out of hate but because he sincerely believed that he was doing the will of God. When Jesus presented Himself to Saul, the truth was made evident and Saul repented of his sin. He would spend the next 3 years learning the truth of God's way which was not the killing of other Christian or believers of any faith. In fact not killing at all; So any religion that kills others in the name of Allah or what ever god, is not of the true religion of the one true God.

But Hitler was not killing people for any other reason then that it was a method to a means. He needed to Unite the people, Albeit in anger, against a weakly group unable to defend themselves, and easily target-able for the purpose of rallying in followers towards his cause. In my opinion, Hitler went beyond the point of no return and knew perfectly well what he was doing.

The point that I was trying to make is that the further away that you get from God, the more evil you are likely to become. Of course this does not mean that when your eyes are opened to the truth that you can not repent but just when does that happen? It is a common saying that the teen years are the years that you finally become the person that you will be for the rest of your life. And even the Bible states...

[b]"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
-Proverbs 22:6

The point being that there is a point of no return. A line that once crossed, there is no coming back from. On this is what the judgement of God looks upon. You can lie to another human Being but God tests the heart. He knows what you are and will do and all that remains is for us to do and be who we are for the purpose of judgement.

Since nature tells us that even an old Dog is set on his ways, Or "You just can't teach an old dog new tricks" it should be obvious that after you have matured into adulthood, That's it. The person that you have transformed into is the person that you will go into the great final judgement as. Demon possessed or not, that also was a choice by you.

Now When that actually happens is an individual situation. Just like it could be possible for there to exist a 40 year old virgin??? It is also possible that one may not fully mature until well into their adult years. There is even a psychological term known as, "Arrested Development" that lends to this theory of late bloomers. But rest assured that when one finally does fully develop, it is by his own choice. And still another example of this is the fact that life begins at 40 for some because that is the age when some fully mature for the rest of their lives.

A cynical person towards God and the truth of God on this thread, for example, is most likely a fully form adult and it is his choice to be what he is. That is his choice and his problem on the day of judgment. God knows exactly who he is and more importantly why. But it is also possible that it will be through these discourses that some may actually arrive at full maturity and come to see the truth for the first time in their lives.

But again the point is that if you are not moving towards God then you are moving away from Him. There is no middle ground. Just as Adam and Eve moved away from God when they ate of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil. You see the sin was not really that they ate a fruit, but rather that they "Chose" to eat that fruit when they were specifically told not to. They chose to decide for themselves what is good and what is evil instead of relying on God to tell them.

The story repeats itself all the time with questions like, "Who are you to tell me what is right and what is wrong?" or "Everyone has their own set of morals." But honestly, this is all just a form of moving away from God. Choosing for ourselves to choose what is right and what is wrong for ourselves. "I will choose for myself, if I will believe in God and creation, or the god of man's genius and evolution."

How far will we go before we pass the point of no return? That choice is ours to make as well.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
-Revelation 22:11

[Woodruff]

The whole idea of redemption is morally repugnant to me,where's the justice?Someone like a Hitler can sincerely repent and be redeemed,but I and millions of others cannot have this despite being morally superior to Hitler by any standard because we have different opinions about the nature of reality?Sick and twisted is being kind,and it really only takes a minimum of intelligence to figure that out..

This seems perfectly relevant:

[Viceroy63]

It is sad to see that you are still missing the point here, corporal.

[Woodruff]

It is sad to see that you are still missing the point here, corporal.

No, I've definitely grasped your point...well, that is...if your point is that you believe you're morally superior to everyone else. That seems to be the sum total of your production here.

So were you ever going to answer the question that was asked regarding how it is "just" for someone like Hitler to ask for forgiveness just before he commits suicide and is accepted into heaven, but an atheist who is a very good person but just doesn't believe in God is sent to hell. I understand the whole "you can't enter heaven on works alone", yet...where is the justice in that? That's not just, and it's certainly not merciful.

[chang50]

But Hitler was not killing people for any other reason then that it was a method to a means. He needed to Unite the people, Albeit in anger, against a weakly group unable to defend themselves, and easily target-able for the purpose of rallying in followers towards his cause. In my opinion, Hitler went beyond the point of no return and knew perfectly well what he was doing.

The point that I was trying to make is that the further away that you get from God, the more evil you are likely to become. Of course this does not mean that when your eyes are opened to the truth that you can not repent but just when does that happen? It is a common saying that the teen years are the years that you finally become the person that you will be for the rest of your life. And even the Bible states...

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
-Proverbs 22:6

The point being that there is a point of no return. A line that once crossed, there is no coming back from. On this is what the judgement of God looks upon. You can lie to another human Being but God tests the heart. He knows what you are and will do and all that remains is for us to do and be who we are for the purpose of judgement.

Since nature tells us that even an old Dog is set on his ways, Or "You just can't teach an old dog new tricks" it should be obvious that after you have matured into adulthood, That's it. The person that you have transformed into is the person that you will go into the great final judgement as. Demon possessed or not, that also was a choice by you.

Now When that actually happens is an individual situation. Just like it could be possible for there to exist a 40 year old virgin??? It is also possible that one may not fully mature until well into their adult years. There is even a psychological term known as, "Arrested Development" that lends to this theory of late bloomers. But rest assured that when one finally does fully develop, it is by his own choice. And still another example of this is the fact that life begins at 40 for some because that is the age when some fully mature for the rest of their lives.

A cynical person towards God and the truth of God on this thread, for example, is most likely a fully form adult and it is his choice to be what he is. That is his choice and his problem on the day of judgment. God knows exactly who he is and more importantly why. But it is also possible that it will be through these discourses that some may actually arrive at full maturity and come to see the truth for the first time in their lives.

But again the point is that if you are not moving towards God then you are moving away from Him. There is no middle ground. Just as Adam and Eve moved away from God when they ate of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil. You see the sin was not really that they ate a fruit, but rather that they "Chose" to eat that fruit when they were specifically told not to. They chose to decide for themselves what is good and what is evil instead of relying on God to tell them.

The story repeats itself all the time with questions like, "Who are you to tell me what is right and what is wrong?" or "Everyone has their own set of morals." But honestly, this is all just a form of moving away from God. Choosing for ourselves to choose what is right and what is wrong for ourselves. "I will choose for myself, if I will believe in God and creation, or the god of man's genius and evolution."

How far will we go before we pass the point of no return? That choice is ours to make as well.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
-Revelation 22:11[/quote]


But who are you to say when the point of no return might have been reached?As Woody has noted you like to speak for God on a regular basis.My point is I have zero chance of something that even a Hitler has a slim chance of ONLY because I have a different OPINION on the nature of reality,as long as I have the integrity to not alter it in the face of inducements and threats,preferring to look to the evidence.That is immoral and repugnant catering to the very worst in human nature.

[Viceroy63]

It is sad to see that you are still missing the point here, corporal.

No, I've definitely grasped your point...well, that is...if your point is that you believe you're morally superior to everyone else. That seems to be the sum total of your production here.

So were you ever going to answer the question that was asked regarding how it is "just" for someone like Hitler to ask for forgiveness just before he commits suicide and is accepted into heaven, but an atheist who is a very good person but just doesn't believe in God is sent to hell. I understand the whole "you can't enter heaven on works alone", yet...where is the justice in that? That's not just, and it's certainly not merciful.

OK; Here it is again. The full and detailed answer to your question. Perhaps this time you will care to read it? If you ask me again I will post it again for clarity until you do read it. OK. =)

[Note:]
Where you see the word "Judgement" or "Final Judgement" or "Before God," you may interchange these words with "Death Bed" or "Final Moments of Life." - End Note/Addendum.

If you really think that a demon possessed personality that can war on humanity can repent of his sins then you have truly missed the point. If on a very simply level of good and evil and morality, if on the simplest of levels a person wont turn to God then neither will they turn to God when in the final judgment, after a lifetime of denying God.

In the final judgment, no personalities such as a Hitler will be there to repent or make their choice because they have already made it. People such as they will go directly to the third resurrection of the dead which is the resurrection of condemnation. Not the second resurrection. In that second resurrection will be those who are genuinely deceived and Ignorant of the truth. They will make their choice then.

But I say again, if a person has too much pride in their hearts to accept the truth in the here and now, then how much more hard a time will they have in the judgment when all is revealed and we all learn to be humble because we all will learn that in this life, we really were shit balls. All of us. And I am not trying to insult anyone but it is the truth whether you accept it or not.

"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?'
-I Peters 4:18

Do you think that Hitler was not once a child and did he not have a past just like any other child. Evil is in the heart of all humanity. History has shown us that if it were not Hitler then it would have been some one else. Perhaps you or I if given the same set of circumstances. If not Genghis Khan than Kublai Khan would do just as well if not better. But heads would roll and the hell with the rest and with God! In the same situation such as them, could anyone simply just walk away when we will absolutely sell our souls for Bread and water or riches and fame?

It is never all of a sudden but in stages. One of those stages would be to accept that Humans evolved out of stones and mud rather than to accept the simple truth that God created us. Common sense just went out the window with the baby and the bath water, Voila! And just like that we took a stand against God. And then perhaps another stage may be to receive money to do something like for example lie on your taxes. And just like that you've made another choice and another stand against God. And little by little it goes building up until a sweet little child becomes a World dominating leader and murderer of millions.

Maybe one day some one will put a gun to your head and ask you to decide, "I kill you, or the person next to you; You decide?" Most Probably you would say, "Kill him please, I have a wife and children," and just like that you've made another choice against God. And little by little perhaps you find yourself in a position where you can rule the world but you may have to kill some Jews to do it as part of the deal? Maybe even kill 11 million innocent none combatant civilians, but what would it matter so long as you ruled the world? How do you repent from something like that if you can't even stop cheating on your taxes to save a couple of hundred dollars? The answer; You don't.

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
-Mark 8:36

Humanity suffers from Wars and the diseases of wars because it lust after pleasures instead of the well being of others. Do you think that some one who tells me that I am stupid for believing in a God really cares about his neighbor? People don't want to be told that they are wrong or ignorant of the truth because they want to stay in the dark pleasuring themselves and believing that they are, "All that Good!" and don't care about what anyone else suffers so long as it is not them. Yet it is this very mentality that feeds the Hitler in all of us which makes up humanity.

If humanity were not evil then why do we prepare for war (If not us then some other humans will)? Why would America lie about weapons of mass destruction in a country that America helped to establish and know very well that there are no weapons of mass destruction there? To invade a country for it's oil perhaps? Or perhaps just payback for what they did in Kuwait when they set afire all the oil there? Well what about all those innocent lives that we made to suffer because of our lust for oil and power? Is it any wonder that America is hated by so many Muslim countries? Is this not all a result of human sins because we are evil? Muslims and Christians and non believers alike?

All of humanity is basically evil and in need of redemption. Save that soul who thinks he is basically a good person with some minor faults because never did he have a chance to rule the world even if it meant being by nature, a murdering godless human.

Just because you don't believe in God is not what makes one worthy of the death penalty. But because human nature is basically evil and deserves the death penalty is what drives us away from God and towards theories like those of "Evolution."

"From whence [come] wars and fightings among you? [come they] not hence, [even] of your lusts that war in your members?"
-James 4:1

I would like to add that Paul was killing Christians, not out of hate but because he sincerely believed that he was doing the will of God. When Jesus presented Himself to Saul, the truth was made evident and Saul repented of his sin. He would spend the next 3 years learning the truth of God's way which was not the killing of other Christian or believers of any faith. In fact not killing at all; So any religion that kills others in the name of Allah or what ever god, is not of the true religion of the one true God.

But Hitler was not killing people for any other reason then that it was a method to a means. He needed to Unite the people, Albeit in anger, against a weakly group unable to defend themselves, and easily target-able for the purpose of rallying in followers towards his cause. In my opinion, Hitler went beyond the point of no return and knew perfectly well what he was doing.

The point that I was trying to make is that the further away that you get from God, the more evil you are likely to become. Of course this does not mean that when your eyes are opened to the truth that you can not repent but just when does that happen? It is a common saying that the teen years are the years that you finally become the person that you will be for the rest of your life. And even the Bible states...

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
-Proverbs 22:6

The point being that there is a point of no return. A line that once crossed, there is no coming back from. On this is what the judgement of God looks upon. You can lie to another human Being but God tests the heart. He knows what you are and will do and all that remains is for us to do and be who we are for the purpose of judgement.

Since nature tells us that even an old Dog is set on his ways, Or "You just can't teach an old dog new tricks" it should be obvious that after you have matured into adulthood, That's it. The person that you have transformed into is the person that you will go into the great final judgement as. Demon possessed or not, that also was a choice by you.

Now When that actually happens is an individual situation. Just like it could be possible for there to exist a 40 year old virgin??? It is also possible that one may not fully mature until well into their adult years. There is even a psychological term known as, "Arrested Development" that lends to this theory of late bloomers. But rest assured that when one finally does fully develop, it is by his own choice. And still another example of this is the fact that life begins at 40 for some because that is the age when some fully mature for the rest of their lives.

A cynical person towards God and the truth of God on this thread, for example, is most likely a fully form adult and it is his choice to be what he is. That is his choice and his problem on the day of judgment. God knows exactly who he is and more importantly why. But it is also possible that it will be through these discourses that some may actually arrive at full maturity and come to see the truth for the first time in their lives.

But again the point is that if you are not moving towards God then you are moving away from Him. There is no middle ground. Just as Adam and Eve moved away from God when they ate of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil. You see the sin was not really that they ate a fruit, but rather that they "Chose" to eat that fruit when they were specifically told not to. They chose to decide for themselves what is good and what is evil instead of relying on God to tell them.

The story repeats itself all the time with questions like, "Who are you to tell me what is right and what is wrong?" or "Everyone has their own set of morals." But honestly, this is all just a form of moving away from God. Choosing for ourselves to choose what is right and what is wrong for ourselves. "I will choose for myself, if I will believe in God and creation, or the god of man's genius and evolution."

How far will we go before we pass the point of no return? That choice is ours to make as well.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
-Revelation 22:11

In summation, all that I can say is that the question is seeded with a false assumption that a personality like Hitler could ask for forgiveness and also that People are generally or basically good and deserving. This long explanation deals with this question if you will only bother to take the time to really read this answer.

[Viceroy63]

But who are you to say when the point of no return might have been reached?As Woody has noted you like to speak for God on a regular basis.My point is I have zero chance of something that even a Hitler has a slim chance of ONLY because I have a different OPINION on the nature of reality,as long as I have the integrity to not alter it in the face of inducements and threats,preferring to look to the evidence.That is immoral and repugnant catering to the very worst in human nature.

I am not the one who determines when the point of no return is or where the line is drawn. I am simply pointing out that there is a line and when we cross that line, it is on a conscious level because it is we who choose to walk further and further away from God until we no longer even see God even when all the evidence is right before us in a thread such as this one. We refuse to really examine the evidence and not really look into it because of Pride or just plain lust for power and control or what ever of the millions of things that men do lust after.

The whole point of a Final Judgement in fact is to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt and in front of the entire universe that it is we who chose to walk away from God with every choice that we made in our lives. God will either be proven just or a tyrant then, and all the universe will know this or they will come to know that all human nature is just plain evil and that is why they chose to go away from God. Well except those who actually manage to accept the truth and confess it and repent of their evil sins and human nature.

Actually you can't repent of Human nature, God has to change you there, but you can repent of the fruit of human nature. Those fruits are a choice.

[chang50]

But who are you to say when the point of no return might have been reached?As Woody has noted you like to speak for God on a regular basis.My point is I have zero chance of something that even a Hitler has a slim chance of ONLY because I have a different OPINION on the nature of reality,as long as I have the integrity to not alter it in the face of inducements and threats,preferring to look to the evidence.That is immoral and repugnant catering to the very worst in human nature.

I am not the one who determines when the point of no return is or where the line is drawn. I am simply pointing out that there is a line and when we cross it it is on a conscious level because it is we who choose to walk further and further away from God until we no longer even see God even when all the evidence is right before us in a thread such as this one. We refuse to really examine the evidence and not really look into it because of Pride or just plain lust for power and control or what ever of the millions of things that men do lust after.

The whole point of a Final Judgement in fact is to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt and in front of the entire universe that it is we who chose to walk away from God with every choice that we made in our lives. God will either be proven just or a tyrant then and all the universe will know this or they will come to know that all human nature is just plain evil and that is why they chose to go away from God. Well except those who actually manage to accept the truth and confess and repent of their evil sins and human nature.

Not really addressing my point.As things stand I have zero chance of entering heaven,at best no better than a Hitler,possibly slightly worse.Yet he is responsible for millions of deaths and my crime is holding an opinion.What moral person could describe that as just?

[Viceroy63]

But who are you to say when the point of no return might have been reached?As Woody has noted you like to speak for God on a regular basis.My point is I have zero chance of something that even a Hitler has a slim chance of ONLY because I have a different OPINION on the nature of reality,as long as I have the integrity to not alter it in the face of inducements and threats,preferring to look to the evidence.That is immoral and repugnant catering to the very worst in human nature.

I am not the one who determines when the point of no return is or where the line is drawn. I am simply pointing out that there is a line and when we cross it it is on a conscious level because it is we who choose to walk further and further away from God until we no longer even see God even when all the evidence is right before us in a thread such as this one. We refuse to really examine the evidence and not really look into it because of Pride or just plain lust for power and control or what ever of the millions of things that men do lust after.

The whole point of a Final Judgement in fact is to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt and in front of the entire universe that it is we who chose to walk away from God with every choice that we made in our lives. God will either be proven just or a tyrant then and all the universe will know this or they will come to know that all human nature is just plain evil and that is why they chose to go away from God. Well except those who actually manage to accept the truth and confess and repent of their evil sins and human nature.

Not really addressing my point.As things stand I have zero chance of entering heaven,at best no better than a Hitler,possibly slightly worse.Yet he is responsible for millions of deaths and my crime is holding an opinion.What moral person could describe that as just?

And just exactly what do you base those chances on exactly?

I have fully addressed this issue and it is not about chance but about choice!

Look into the matter and read your Bible or buy one or borrow one from the Library before you start talking about Chances Are??? It makes for a great song title but not the plain and simple truth. The truth is that we either choose to look into this and read up on this or we choose not to. The problem is choice and not chance.

[Woodruff]

It is sad to see that you are still missing the point here, corporal.

No, I've definitely grasped your point...well, that is...if your point is that you believe you're morally superior to everyone else. That seems to be the sum total of your production here.

So were you ever going to answer the question that was asked regarding how it is "just" for someone like Hitler to ask for forgiveness just before he commits suicide and is accepted into heaven, but an atheist who is a very good person but just doesn't believe in God is sent to hell. I understand the whole "you can't enter heaven on works alone", yet...where is the justice in that? That's not just, and it's certainly not merciful.

OK; Here it is again. The full and detailed answer to your question. Perhaps this time you will care to read it? If you ask me again I will post it again for clarity until you do read it. OK. =)

I read it. In fact, I ANSWERED IT DIRECTLY. Fascinatingly enough, YOU HAVE IGNORED that answer. Why is that, Viceroy? You are guilty of that which you attempt to accuse me. Why don't you go back to those answers I had and respond to them for a change? Give that a try. Geez, the dishonesty of folks like you really gives your religion a bad name.

Where you see the word "Judgement" or "Final Judgement" or "Before God," you may interchange these words with "Death Bed" or "Final Moments of Life." - End Note/Addendum.

So what you're telling me is that the Bible has the wrong words? I thought the Bible was infallable? Or are you just speaking for God's mind again?

If you really think that a demon possessed personality that can war on humanity can repent of his sins then you have truly missed the point.

There is no evidence that Hitler was possessed by a demon.

If on a very simply level of good and evil and morality, if on the simplest of levels a person wont turn to God then neither will they turn to God when in the final judgment, after a lifetime of denying God.

That doesn't even make basic sense. An atheist MIGHT turn to God when in the final judgement, as he finally recognizes that there is actually a God (having the proof before him in her presence). Being an atheist doesn't mean you hate God...it means you don't believe she exists. Once proof is provided, then views should change.

In the final judgment, no personalities such as a Hitler will be there to repent or make their choice because they have already made it.

Again, this is not what the Bible says.

People such as they will go directly to the third resurrection of the dead which is the resurrection of condemnation. Not the second resurrection. In that second resurrection will be those who are genuinely deceived and Ignorant of the truth. They will make their choice then.

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along, or are you being fed this by someone else?

But I say again, if a person has too much pride in their hearts to accept the truth in the here and now, then how much more hard a time will they have in the judgment when all is revealed

"When all is revealed", then it would obviously be a MUCH EASIER TIME to make that call. Perfect information has a funny way of doing that.

and we all learn to be humble because we all will learn that in this life, we really were shit balls. All of us. And I am not trying to insult anyone but it is the truth whether you accept it or not.

Except that it really isn't the truth. You should stop hating yourself so much. Learn to love yourself. You're not that bad. Compared to Hitler, anyway.

Do you think that Hitler was not once a child and did he not have a past just like any other child. Evil is in the heart of all humanity. History has shown us that if it were not Hitler then it would have been some one else. Perhaps you or I if given the same set of circumstances.

I do not accept that assertion, no.

It is never all of a sudden but in stages. One of those stages would be to accept that Humans evolved out of stones and mud rather than to accept the simple truth that God created us.

That God created us out of...stones and mud? Huh.

Common sense just went out the window with the baby and the bath water, Voila!

I agree with you, but not in the way you might think.

And just like that we took a stand against God.

I haven't "taken a stand against God". I grew up in a religious household, and I loved my church. I still keep in contact with my pastor from back then, in fact...he is a man I greatly respect. And I hold respect for most religious people, as I do think most are genuinely good people. I am not anti-religion. But it doesn't make sense for me to "take a stand against" something that I don't believe exists. That's like me taking a stand against leprechauns...it would be a complete waste of time and energy. I DO, however, take a stand against irrationality, lies and abuse.

And then perhaps another stage may be to receive money to do something like for example lie on your taxes. And just like that you've made another choice and another stand against God. And little by little it goes building up until a sweet little child becomes a World dominating leader and murderer of millions.

That's a hell of a ladder you got going there. Lying on your taxes leads to world domination.

Maybe one day some one will put a gun to your head and ask you to decide, "I kill you, or the person next to you; You decide?" Most Probably you would say, "Kill him please, I have a wife and children," and just like that you've made another choice against God.

That's not a choice against God. If that's a choice against God, then God is an idiot.

And little by little perhaps you find yourself in a position where you can rule the world but you may have to kill some Jews to do it as part of the deal? Maybe even kill 11 million innocent none combatant civilians, but what would it matter so long as you ruled the world? How do you repent from something like that if you can't even stop cheating on your taxes to save a couple of hundred dollars? The answer; You don't.

You should stop hating yourself. I can see how it has led you to who you are, though.

Do you think that some one who tells me that I am stupid for believing in a God really cares about his neighbor?

I don't at all think the two are mutually exclusive, no. I think it's entirely possible for someone to think you're stupid for believing in God and yet still care deeply about his fellow man. The two are not at all congruent.

Yet it is this very mentality that feeds the Hitler in all of us which makes up humanity.

You really should stop hating yourself.

If humanity were not evil then why do we prepare for war (If not us then some other humans will)?

You believe that being prepared to defend yourself against an attacker is evil?

Is this not all a result of human sins because we are evil?

Not in my opinion, no.

All of humanity is basically evil and in need of redemption.

You should find a good psychologist. You have a serious problem.

Save that soul who thinks he is basically a good person with some minor faults because never did he have a chance to rule the world even if it meant being by nature, a murdering godless human.

Seriously...get help.

Just because you don't believe in God is not what makes one worthy of the death penalty. But because human nature is basically evil and deserves the death penalty is what drives us away from God and towards theories like those of "Evolution."

Before you harm yourself or your family more than you already have.

I would like to add that Paul was killing Christians, not out of hate but because he sincerely believed that he was doing the will of God. When Jesus presented Himself to Saul, the truth was made evident and Saul repented of his sin. He would spend the next 3 years learning the truth of God's way which was not the killing of other Christian or believers of any faith. In fact not killing at all; So any religion that kills others in the name of Allah or what ever god, is not of the true religion of the one true God.

Since all religions have done this, then you agree with me that there is no God?

The point that I was trying to make is that the further away that you get from God, the more evil you are likely to become.

That explains the Spanish Inquisition, I suppose?

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
-Proverbs 22:6

I was raised in a religious household with a very strong church and a pastor that I respected a great deal. However, I eventually started to look at the world with a critical eye and realized that the existence of a God was very unlikely. So how do you explain that?

The point being that there is a point of no return. A line that once crossed, there is no coming back from.

There you go...speaking for God's mind again. You really need to break that nasty habit. Or at the very least, stop telling others that they can't possibly know what God's intentions are.

Since nature tells us that even an old Dog is set on his ways, Or "You just can't teach an old dog new tricks" it should be obvious that after you have matured into adulthood, That's it. The person that you have transformed into is the person that you will go into the great final judgement as. Demon possessed or not, that also was a choice by you.

I am living proof that this is not the case. In fact, my marriage is living proof that this is not the case. You're failing badly here.

Now When that actually happens is an individual situation. Just like it could be possible for there to exist a 40 year old virgin??? It is also possible that one may not fully mature until well into their adult years. There is even a psychological term known as, "Arrested Development" that lends to this theory of late bloomers. But rest assured that when one finally does fully develop, it is by his own choice. And still another example of this is the fact that life begins at 40 for some because that is the age when some fully mature for the rest of their lives.

I have never heard anyone, never mind a religious person, abuse so many cliches in an effort at propoganda.

But again the point is that if you are not moving towards God then you are moving away from Him. There is no middle ground. Just as Adam and Eve moved away from God when they ate of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil. You see the sin was not really that they ate a fruit, but rather that they "Chose" to eat that fruit when they were specifically told not to. They chose to decide for themselves what is good and what is evil instead of relying on God to tell them.

So you approve of slavery and you disapprove of freedom of thought and action?

In summation, all that I can say is that the question is seeded with a false assumption that a personality like Hitler could ask for forgiveness and also that People are generally or basically good and deserving.

It's amazing that you're so willing to speak for God's mind. Your arrogance is overwhelming.

This long explanation deals with this question if you will only bother to take the time to really read this answer.

Will you take the time to read and respond to my previous answer and this one?

[Woodruff]

Not really addressing my point.As things stand I have zero chance of entering heaven,at best no better than a Hitler,possibly slightly worse.Yet he is responsible for millions of deaths and my crime is holding an opinion.What moral person could describe that as just?

And just exactly what do you base those chances on exactly?

Your own statements.

I have fully addressed this issue and it is not about chance but about choice!

You've fully danced around answering the question, actually. You haven't yet answered it. I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to avoid answering it, unless you realize how bad the answer you have to give is going to sound.

Look into the matter and read your Bible or buy one or borrow one from the Library before you start talking about Chances Are??? It makes for a great song title but not the plain and simple truth. The truth is that we either choose to look into this and read up on this or we choose not to. The problem is choice and not chance.

The question is about God being just and merciful. Are you going to answer it?