Post Any Evidence For God Here

[Viceroy63]

I feel that I should mention here that eternal punishment is Death. The effect of death is for ever and that is eternal punishment. There is only torment involved in the actual dying. Any death is painful with some exception as in the case of those who die in their sleep. But experiencing your own death and knowing you are about to die has to carry with it some torment.

A lot of the times, people simply misinterpret the Bible meaning of eternal punishment but the reality is that we are not saved from eternal punishment but from death eternal. There is only one resurrection from the dead for each of us, according to the Bible. Those who are called and chosen, that is to say, those who have chosen to accept Christ in this life because they were called, will have their part in the first resurrection when Jesus arrives and need not fear eternal death. Those who are call to understanding in this life and yet reject that understanding will have their part in the Third Resurrection from the dead. Yes, there are three resurrections mentioned in the Bible.

Everyone else who was not called will be given their opportunity to repent and accept Jesus will have their chance in the Second Resurrection. All of those aborted children and children who died never knowing the Lord will rise in this resurrection. And the Second resurrection will be for about at least 100 years. Those who still do not accept Jesus in this resurrection will die in the like of fire which is the second death. And as mentioned the Third Resurrection will be for People who have obviously rejected their calling to the Lord in this life right now, as all who reject the calling in the second resurrection die the second death, then.

As for those who accept the main calling in the Second Resurrection, their eyes will be opened and they will know the truth then and eternal life given them as the reward of the righteous who choose not to deny Jesus after coming to that understanding. Eternal life is the reward and salvation from eternal death the gift of all who come to truly acknowledge the Lord and obey Him!

The final Judgement is not so much to judge men and their deeds but to judge God also. God must be judged and his action clearly defined and resolved as fair and absolutely just for all eternity and all questions about his judgment and love be answered right then and there and put to rest because they can not be allowed to continue into eternal existence possibly giving the opportunity for another "Lucifer Rising." On this awaits all of creation and even the angels who obey God knowing and seeing the truth already and wishing that they could preach the truth to us but they already have their jobs and ours is to preach the truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

The enemy would hope to confuse us and thus spreads a false gospel and the untruth about "Eternal Torment." Satan knows that if people can have it set in their hearts that God is unjust that they would not repent in the second resurrection but would deny Jesus to the very bitter end, and when Satan is finally released from his thousand year prison, he will be able to take those, whom God had created and denied their own Creator, into final destruction with him. That is the purpose of the lake of fire, to destroy all sin and the cause of sin after God and all of creation has been judged. And it is Satan's intent to take as many of God's creation into eternal destruction with him. That is the whole plan!

There is no eternal torment planned for all of eternity for mortal men and woman. Humans must first be immortal beings for that to happen, and we are not immortal beings, but we die plain and simple. So then salvation is not from torment but from the eternal death penalty for the crimes of our sins. From this second death, there are no more chances. There are simply no more resurrections after these. Only Death and not eternal torment. That is why it is ETERNAL DEATH!

[Ray Rider]

For one among very many examples, Jesus is all about mercy most of the time, but then also threatens eternal excommunication/torment (depending on the interpretation of certain biblical verses) to those that don't follow his way and accept him/his Dad as subjects of worship. (Matthew 10:33 "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." - so deny Jesus as your saviour and you're not getting into our special sky club).

By choosing to deny Him, that person is therefore choosing to reject heaven since that is by definition what heaven is, the place of God's abode. If a dying man refuses the only life preserver which is thrown to him, what option remains? If a person chooses to reject Jesus, what have they chosen instead? Although God knows what is best for us, and what is best for us is to be with Him, he will never force himself on us.

On the second point, firstly Christ said quite clearly in the sermon on the mount that he was not there to change any of the rules already in place, or to remove them from the rulebook. But even then if we say that those two rules "love God and love thy neighbour" then God comes up short. An all powerful, all loving being would never condemn one of his creations to eternal excommunication/torment because he built it in such a way that meant that for whatever reason (either intellectual/emotional or societal/cultural) they could not believe in him and genuinely love him. As mentioned in another post on here or the gay marriage thread, love is not a choice it's an emotional response (and I'll requote that argument here if you want to go over it)

I strongly disagree with that statement and I know of plenty of couples who would agree with me, couples who have chosen to love each other and remain together through thick and thin, even though at times their emotional response to situations would have been to pack up and leave.

OK, so as a human being, with finite capability for different actions, and with a finite capacity for love, compassion and mercy, I am taught that I must: (to quote Matthew 5:43-48)

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And yet an all powerful being, with an infinite capability to do anything, and with an infinite capacity for love, compassion and mercy isn't going to do the same? Will he accept non-believers into heaven? Will he do good to those that hate him?

Ah no, I remember now, he'll condemn us all to eternal excommunication/torment. OK then.... guess he's still a scumbag.

As for the part in red, as I mentioned above, that is an impossibility; after having given us free will and allowed people the choice of rejecting Him, God cannot then choose to rescind their free will and force them to be with Him in heaven. That would be contrary to the very nature of God.

As for the part in blue, yes, he has already done great good to those who hate him! That was the whole reason why Jesus gave up the splendor of heaven to live as a man for while, being tempted in all things like as we are, feeling hurt and pain and finally allowing himself to be cruelly killed for doing no wrong, all so that he could make a way of salvation for us! I don't deserve it and you don't deserve it; by our own evil actions we condemn ourselves, yet God has given us a second chance anyway. The question that remains is what will you do with the choice that is presented to you?

"For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." - Paul speaking in Romans 5:6-8

[Symmetry]

So, it's a believe in God or die argument?

[john9blue]

maybe... sounds crazy, but... maybe different beings should have different moral expectations?

there's a reason we don't punish animals for murdering each other. hell, we don't even punish kids as harshly as we punish adults for identical crimes.

Well, you're using a loaded term: "murder." There is no Justice in the non-human 'Kingdom', so the claim of murder, i.e. unjustified killing, can't be established since the criteria (justice, to name one) are lacking.

Of course, [insert the debate on natural/universal rights and how they apply to animals in terms of consciousness and what have you.]

who says there's no justice in the animal kingdom? that implies that we can do whatever we want to animals and nothing would be immoral.

[BigBallinStalin]

maybe... sounds crazy, but... maybe different beings should have different moral expectations?

there's a reason we don't punish animals for murdering each other. hell, we don't even punish kids as harshly as we punish adults for identical crimes.

Well, you're using a loaded term: "murder." There is no Justice in the non-human 'Kingdom', so the claim of murder, i.e. unjustified killing, can't be established since the criteria (justice, to name one) are lacking.

Of course, [insert the debate on natural/universal rights and how they apply to animals in terms of consciousness and what have you.]

who says there's no justice in the animal kingdom? that implies that we can do whatever we want to animals and nothing would be immoral.

I'm talkin' about justice within the non-human kingdom regarding interactions among non-humans, hence "in the non-human Kingdom'. Human to non-human interactions and that debate is a different topic.

[crispybits]

Viceroy Jesus disagrees with you several times over, now who should I believe - you or Jesus?

Mark 9:43-48
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched

Matthew 5:22
...anyone who says, 'You fool!" will be in danger of the fire of Hell.

Matthew 8:12
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(pretty hard to weep and gnash your teeth if you're dead dead, right?)

Other parts of the bible strongly back this up too:

Revelation 20:15
All whose names were not found written in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Notice by the way that I did not have to even touch the old testament for this, this is all from the new book, the new way where it's all about love. What you and others are doing when you redesign hell like you do is to try and paint God in a better light by cherry-picking bits and bobs from here and there that can be interpretted in different ways (for example Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." says punishment so that can mean just a simple no eternal bliss, except for the fact that lots of other verses are very descriptive indeed).

Ray, I could reject Pat Robertson as evil, and say that I think he is a scumbag, and do so publically, yet if I'm outside his house when the zombie apocalypse starts and I'm in danger, the moral thing for him to do is still say "come inside my house where it's safe" regardless of what I have said about him beforehand. I would still say that he is a scumbag for getting rich off the backs of gullible believers in a message he's piggybacked himself onto, but if given the choice between becoming a zombie or being in his house then the choice is pretty clear. I don't have to be willing to accept him as any sort of prophet or true messenger to be secure in his house. I don't have to like him and he doesn't have to like me for that.

As for the couples choosing to love each other and stay together, the couple already loves each other, but life is complicated and sometimes love isn't enough to maintain a relationship. I'll actually spell out the example I gave before then. Imagine the food you absolutely hate eating most in the world. It could be peanuts or mushrooms or oysters or whatever. Now you can choose to accept the fact that you're going to have to eat that food for whatever reason, but you cannot choose to change your emotional response to eating it. That feeling you get when you eat your favourite food, that "mmmmm that's gooood!", you cannot choose to feel that about your most hated food when you eat that, all you can do is choose to eat it and get on with it for whatever reason life has put in front of you. It's the same with the couples, the ones that choose to stay together aren't choosing to love each other, they already love each other, they are choosing to prioritise that love above all the other stuff life is throwing at them and make it work somehow.

As for the last bit, he's done a good thing for us, brilliant! (I have many problems with why an all powerful, all loving being would need to use such an awkward, ineffective and easily misinterpretted way as the religion of christianity to achieve this but that's a tangent). But he's all powerful and all loving, so him doing one finite thing for us and then saying "well I can be a scumbag now for the rest of time because I gave them a chance with the Jesus thing" doesn't strike me as particularly moral. It wold be like me giving you a million dollars to improve your quality of life, but then coming round to your house every day and saying "do you genuinely love me" and if you have to truthfully answer no punching you in the face several times. When does the fact I gave you a million dollars get old, and you just leave what I gave you because you don't think I'm a good thing to have in your life? Jesus came down and died for us, brilliant. NOW LOVE GOD OR FACE ETERNAL HELL FIRE!!!!! Nice message....

[john9blue]

who says there's no justice in the animal kingdom? that implies that we can do whatever we want to animals and nothing would be immoral.

I'm talkin' about justice within the non-human kingdom regarding interactions among non-humans, hence "in the non-human Kingdom'. Human to non-human interactions and that debate is a different topic.

what do you mean by justice? do you mean there's no arbitrating authority? or do you mean there's no right or wrong?

[crispybits]

If you wanna run with it J9B I'd be willing to bet he means no right and wrong. In the animal kingdom might is right.

[chang50]

I feel that I should mention here that eternal punishment is Death. The effect of death is for ever and that is eternal punishment. There is only torment involved in the actual dying. Any death is painful with some exception as in the case of those who die in their sleep. But experiencing your own death and knowing you are about to die has to carry with it some torment.

A lot of the times, people simply misinterpret the Bible meaning of eternal punishment but the reality is that we are not saved from eternal punishment but from death eternal. There is only one resurrection from the dead for each of us, according to the Bible. Those who are called and chosen, that is to say, those who have chosen to accept Christ in this life because they were called, will have their part in the first resurrection when Jesus arrives and need not fear eternal death. Those who are call to understanding in this life and yet reject that understanding will have their part in the Third Resurrection from the dead. Yes, there are three resurrections mentioned in the Bible.

Everyone else who was not called will be given their opportunity to repent and accept Jesus will have their chance in the Second Resurrection. All of those aborted children and children who died never knowing the Lord will rise in this resurrection. And the Second resurrection will be for about at least 100 years. Those who still do not accept Jesus in this resurrection will die in the like of fire which is the second death. And as mentioned the Third Resurrection will be for People who have obviously rejected their calling to the Lord in this life right now, as all who reject the calling in the second resurrection die the second death, then.

As for those who accept the main calling in the Second Resurrection, their eyes will be opened and they will know the truth then and eternal life given them as the reward of the righteous who choose not to deny Jesus after coming to that understanding. Eternal life is the reward and salvation from eternal death the gift of all who come to truly acknowledge the Lord and obey Him!

The final Judgement is not so much to judge men and their deeds but to judge God also. God must be judged and his action clearly defined and resolved as fair and absolutely just for all eternity and all questions about his judgment and love be answered right then and there and put to rest because they can not be allowed to continue into eternal existence possibly giving the opportunity for another "Lucifer Rising." On this awaits all of creation and even the angels who obey God knowing and seeing the truth already and wishing that they could preach the truth to us but they already have their jobs and ours is to preach the truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

The enemy would hope to confuse us and thus spreads a false gospel and the untruth about "Eternal Torment." Satan knows that if people can have it set in their hearts that God is unjust that they would not repent in the second resurrection but would deny Jesus to the very bitter end, and when Satan is finally released from his thousand year prison, he will be able to take those, whom God had created and denied their own Creator, into final destruction with him. That is the purpose of the lake of fire, to destroy all sin and the cause of sin after God and all of creation has been judged. And it is Satan's intent to take as many of God's creation into eternal destruction with him. That is the whole plan!

There is no eternal torment planned for all of eternity for mortal men and woman. Humans must first be immortal beings for that to happen, and we are not immortal beings, but we die plain and simple. So then salvation is not from torment but from the eternal death penalty for the crimes of our sins. From this second death, there are no more chances. There are simply no more resurrections after these. Only Death and not eternal torment. That is why it is ETERNAL DEATH!

Just supposing this nonesense is true,it is is just further reason not to believe in God,the thought of eternal life is infinitely more frightening than eternal death to me.

[john9blue]

no right and wrong.

might is right.

.....wat?

[crispybits]

There is no "right AND wrong", and "might is right" - do you seriously need it spelled out in even smaller words?

[Symmetry]

I feel that I should mention here that eternal punishment is Death. The effect of death is for ever and that is eternal punishment. There is only torment involved in the actual dying. Any death is painful with some exception as in the case of those who die in their sleep. But experiencing your own death and knowing you are about to die has to carry with it some torment.

A lot of the times, people simply misinterpret the Bible meaning of eternal punishment but the reality is that we are not saved from eternal punishment but from death eternal. There is only one resurrection from the dead for each of us, according to the Bible. Those who are called and chosen, that is to say, those who have chosen to accept Christ in this life because they were called, will have their part in the first resurrection when Jesus arrives and need not fear eternal death. Those who are call to understanding in this life and yet reject that understanding will have their part in the Third Resurrection from the dead. Yes, there are three resurrections mentioned in the Bible.

Everyone else who was not called will be given their opportunity to repent and accept Jesus will have their chance in the Second Resurrection. All of those aborted children and children who died never knowing the Lord will rise in this resurrection. And the Second resurrection will be for about at least 100 years. Those who still do not accept Jesus in this resurrection will die in the like of fire which is the second death. And as mentioned the Third Resurrection will be for People who have obviously rejected their calling to the Lord in this life right now, as all who reject the calling in the second resurrection die the second death, then.

As for those who accept the main calling in the Second Resurrection, their eyes will be opened and they will know the truth then and eternal life given them as the reward of the righteous who choose not to deny Jesus after coming to that understanding. Eternal life is the reward and salvation from eternal death the gift of all who come to truly acknowledge the Lord and obey Him!

The final Judgement is not so much to judge men and their deeds but to judge God also. God must be judged and his action clearly defined and resolved as fair and absolutely just for all eternity and all questions about his judgment and love be answered right then and there and put to rest because they can not be allowed to continue into eternal existence possibly giving the opportunity for another "Lucifer Rising." On this awaits all of creation and even the angels who obey God knowing and seeing the truth already and wishing that they could preach the truth to us but they already have their jobs and ours is to preach the truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

The enemy would hope to confuse us and thus spreads a false gospel and the untruth about "Eternal Torment." Satan knows that if people can have it set in their hearts that God is unjust that they would not repent in the second resurrection but would deny Jesus to the very bitter end, and when Satan is finally released from his thousand year prison, he will be able to take those, whom God had created and denied their own Creator, into final destruction with him. That is the purpose of the lake of fire, to destroy all sin and the cause of sin after God and all of creation has been judged. And it is Satan's intent to take as many of God's creation into eternal destruction with him. That is the whole plan!

There is no eternal torment planned for all of eternity for mortal men and woman. Humans must first be immortal beings for that to happen, and we are not immortal beings, but we die plain and simple. So then salvation is not from torment but from the eternal death penalty for the crimes of our sins. From this second death, there are no more chances. There are simply no more resurrections after these. Only Death and not eternal torment. That is why it is ETERNAL DEATH!

Just supposing this nonesense is true,it is is just further reason not to believe in God,the thought of eternal life is infinitely more frightening than eternal death to me.

Join my religion, It's like the others, but the pancakes are better. Plus we have reincarnation. So all those claims about perma death? They won't happen.

[BigBallinStalin]

who says there's no justice in the animal kingdom? that implies that we can do whatever we want to animals and nothing would be immoral.

I'm talkin' about justice within the non-human kingdom regarding interactions among non-humans, hence "in the non-human Kingdom'. Human to non-human interactions and that debate is a different topic.

what do you mean by justice? do you mean there's no arbitrating authority? or do you mean there's no right or wrong?

Oh, good question. Let's go with "Both," and see what happens.

[john9blue]

There is no "right AND wrong", and "might is right" - do you seriously need it spelled out in even smaller words?

so, since you declared that there is a "right" and there is no "right and wrong", that means that you think there is no wrong?

how can there be no wrong when there is a right?

[BigBallinStalin]

Might makes 'right'.

How's that sound?

[john9blue]

those apostrophes aren't doing much for me man.

[Frigidus]

those apostrophes aren't doing much for me man.

He's saying that morality does not exist in the animal kingdom. If a cat toys with a mouse before killing it, the cat did it because it could. The exact phrasing isn't really that important.

[AAFitz]

I feel that I should mention here that eternal punishment is Death. The effect of death is for ever and that is eternal punishment. There is only torment involved in the actual dying. Any death is painful with some exception as in the case of those who die in their sleep. But experiencing your own death and knowing you are about to die has to carry with it some torment.

A lot of the times, people simply misinterpret the Bible meaning of eternal punishment but the reality is that we are not saved from eternal punishment but from death eternal. There is only one resurrection from the dead for each of us, according to the Bible. Those who are called and chosen, that is to say, those who have chosen to accept Christ in this life because they were called, will have their part in the first resurrection when Jesus arrives and need not fear eternal death. Those who are call to understanding in this life and yet reject that understanding will have their part in the Third Resurrection from the dead. Yes, there are three resurrections mentioned in the Bible.

Everyone else who was not called will be given their opportunity to repent and accept Jesus will have their chance in the Second Resurrection. All of those aborted children and children who died never knowing the Lord will rise in this resurrection. And the Second resurrection will be for about at least 100 years. Those who still do not accept Jesus in this resurrection will die in the like of fire which is the second death. And as mentioned the Third Resurrection will be for People who have obviously rejected their calling to the Lord in this life right now, as all who reject the calling in the second resurrection die the second death, then.

As for those who accept the main calling in the Second Resurrection, their eyes will be opened and they will know the truth then and eternal life given them as the reward of the righteous who choose not to deny Jesus after coming to that understanding. Eternal life is the reward and salvation from eternal death the gift of all who come to truly acknowledge the Lord and obey Him!

The final Judgement is not so much to judge men and their deeds but to judge God also. God must be judged and his action clearly defined and resolved as fair and absolutely just for all eternity and all questions about his judgment and love be answered right then and there and put to rest because they can not be allowed to continue into eternal existence possibly giving the opportunity for another "Lucifer Rising." On this awaits all of creation and even the angels who obey God knowing and seeing the truth already and wishing that they could preach the truth to us but they already have their jobs and ours is to preach the truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

The enemy would hope to confuse us and thus spreads a false gospel and the untruth about "Eternal Torment." Satan knows that if people can have it set in their hearts that God is unjust that they would not repent in the second resurrection but would deny Jesus to the very bitter end, and when Satan is finally released from his thousand year prison, he will be able to take those, whom God had created and denied their own Creator, into final destruction with him. That is the purpose of the lake of fire, to destroy all sin and the cause of sin after God and all of creation has been judged. And it is Satan's intent to take as many of God's creation into eternal destruction with him. That is the whole plan!

There is no eternal torment planned for all of eternity for mortal men and woman. Humans must first be immortal beings for that to happen, and we are not immortal beings, but we die plain and simple. So then salvation is not from torment but from the eternal death penalty for the crimes of our sins. From this second death, there are no more chances. There are simply no more resurrections after these. Only Death and not eternal torment. That is why it is ETERNAL DEATH!

I gotcha. "Live like there is no tomorrow!"

Sounds good.

[tzor]

Join my religion, It's like the others, but the pancakes are better. Plus we have reincarnation. So all those claims about perma death? They won't happen.

No thanks, I don't want reincarnation. If I don't know who I was, then who I will be won't know me. I'm not really into this milk of amnesia.

[john9blue]

those apostrophes aren't doing much for me man.

He's saying that morality does not exist in the animal kingdom. If a cat toys with a mouse before killing it, the cat did it because it could. The exact phrasing isn't really that important.

so why do humans have morals and animals don't? what's the difference? we're just evolved apes.

[crispybits]

Some animals do have morals, or at least the social basis for morals to develop within the group (given that we can't understand the communication within the groups in detail we can't prove morals per se but we can identify the social precursors to morality)

Primates and mammals that live in groups have been shown to exhibit the following behavioural traits:

attachment and bonding, cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy and empathy, direct and indirect reciprocity, altruism and reciprocal altruism, conflict resolution and peacemaking, deception and deception detection, community concern and caring about what others think about you, and awareness of and response to the social rules of the group
http://www.michaelshermer.com/science-good-evil/

The difference between those and a highly codified set of moral rules is only really language. The behaviour is there already, but "ook ook ook" doesn't readily translate easily into essays and treaties on what is and is not moral behaviour. And it's based largely on what the non-religious moral relativists base their morality on, as in the common good, the common happiness, etc.

[Ray Rider]

Ray, I could reject Pat Robertson as evil, and say that I think he is a scumbag, and do so publically, yet if I'm outside his house when the zombie apocalypse starts and I'm in danger, the moral thing for him to do is still say "come inside my house where it's safe" regardless of what I have said about him beforehand.

I don't know much about Pat Robertson (I'm no fan of televangelists), but I agree with much of the rest; and this is almost precisely the way things are spiritually for you. Even in this thread you've called God a "scumbag" multiple times and he has the power to strike you dead immediately; yet does He? No! He keeps that door wide open for your entire life so you may choose at any moment to turn towards safety to avoid the "zombie apocalypse" (John 10:9). However as I said before, it's your choice whether or not to enter that door; no one can force you.

I would still say that he is a scumbag for getting rich off the backs of gullible believers in a message he's piggybacked himself onto, but if given the choice between becoming a zombie or being in his house then the choice is pretty clear. I don't have to be willing to accept him as any sort of prophet or true messenger to be secure in his house. I don't have to like him and he doesn't have to like me for that.

I think the part you may be missing is that you have already been bitten. Safety is offered to you within the house, but you must also be willing to trust the Doctor and undergo the surgery necessary to prevent you from becoming a walker yourself; otherwise you would threaten the safety of the entire house.

As for the couples choosing to love each other and stay together, the couple already loves each other, but life is complicated and sometimes love isn't enough to maintain a relationship. I'll actually spell out the example I gave before then. Imagine the food you absolutely hate eating most in the world. It could be peanuts or mushrooms or oysters or whatever. Now you can choose to accept the fact that you're going to have to eat that food for whatever reason, but you cannot choose to change your emotional response to eating it. That feeling you get when you eat your favourite food, that "mmmmm that's gooood!", you cannot choose to feel that about your most hated food when you eat that, all you can do is choose to eat it and get on with it for whatever reason life has put in front of you. It's the same with the couples, the ones that choose to stay together aren't choosing to love each other, they already love each other, they are choosing to prioritise that love above all the other stuff life is throwing at them and make it work somehow.

You appear to be almost contradicting yourself here. I agree with the last statement, but not with much of what precedes it. The feeling of love may come and go, just as my feelings toward food may come and go. Mushrooms used to make me feel like vomiting but now I can stomach them; ketchup chips used to be my favorite but now it's BBQ (wow these are some cheesy analogies). Two people may feel love towards each other for a while, but ultimately it's their character of faithfulness and commitment which keeps them together. I'm not sure how we got off on this tangent anyway...moving along...

As for the last bit, he's done a good thing for us, brilliant! (I have many problems with why an all powerful, all loving being would need to use such an awkward, ineffective and easily misinterpretted way as the religion of christianity to achieve this but that's a tangent).

Meh, we who adhere to Christianity are humans and makes mistakes like anyone else; be careful about judging Christ based on the way we behave. We are but poor reflections of Him (2 Corinthians 3:18). Study Him and His life if you want a more accurate picture of what Christianity is all about.

But he's all powerful and all loving, so him doing one finite thing for us and then saying "well I can be a scumbag now for the rest of time because I gave them a chance with the Jesus thing" doesn't strike me as particularly moral. It wold be like me giving you a million dollars to improve your quality of life, but then coming round to your house every day and saying "do you genuinely love me" and if you have to truthfully answer no punching you in the face several times. When does the fact I gave you a million dollars get old, and you just leave what I gave you because you don't think I'm a good thing to have in your life?

I'm not sure where you get these impressions from; He didn't just give one finite thing or one million dollars; He gave Himself, His only Son, and we brutally killed Him (Matthew 21:33-39). What more can someone give than your life for another's (John 15:13)? That's what He did for you and for me. He could have just said "Those people down there chose to reject God? Screw them!" and continued to live in the glory of heaven while allowing us to continue towards destruction. But He didn't.

Jesus came down and died for us, brilliant. NOW LOVE GOD OR FACE ETERNAL HELL FIRE!!!!! Nice message....

First of all, Hell wasn't created for mankind; it was created for Lucifer and the fallen angels who attempted to take God's place (Isaiah 14:12-15, Matthew 25:41). We, by choosing to follow the Lucifer rather than God, are thereby choosing to join his fate as well. God isn't a sadist saying "Yay! More fuel for the fires of hell;" He's calling all of us to turn away from the destination we are clearly choosing for ourselves each day based on the actions and choices we make (Ezekiel 33:11, Acts 17:30).

Say if I were going for a morning jog and happened to discover you sitting locked in your vehicle, parked on a railroad track with a train coming your way; if I were to yell at you "MOVE OFF THE TRACKS OR YOU'LL BE DEAD!" Would you critique my message or would you be willing to drive the few yards to safety? You could say it was insensitive of me to yell at you, or tell me I could express myself better, but how much more cruel would it be for me not to warn you at all!

[crispybits]

Ray, I could reject Pat Robertson as evil, and say that I think he is a scumbag, and do so publically, yet if I'm outside his house when the zombie apocalypse starts and I'm in danger, the moral thing for him to do is still say "come inside my house where it's safe" regardless of what I have said about him beforehand.

I don't know much about Pat Robertson (I'm no fan of televangelists), but I agree with much of the rest; and this is almost precisely the way things are spiritually for you. Even in this thread you've called God a "scumbag" multiple times and he has the power to strike you dead immediately; yet does He? No! He keeps that door wide open for your entire life so you may choose at any moment to turn towards safety to avoid the "zombie apocalypse" (John 10:9). However as I said before, it's your choice whether or not to enter that door; no one can force you.

I would still say that he is a scumbag for getting rich off the backs of gullible believers in a message he's piggybacked himself onto, but if given the choice between becoming a zombie or being in his house then the choice is pretty clear. I don't have to be willing to accept him as any sort of prophet or true messenger to be secure in his house. I don't have to like him and he doesn't have to like me for that.

I think the part you may be missing is that you have already been bitten. Safety is offered to you within the house, but you must also be willing to trust the Doctor and undergo the surgery necessary to prevent you from becoming a walker yourself; otherwise you would threaten the safety of the entire house.

A valid argument, if you can explain how an impure soul could be a danger to anyone in Heaven. In the complete presence of an all powerful being I struggle to think of a way in which a simple inability to love something which seems monstrous and evil to me (should it exist at all) could be a danger to anyone. Also, we are told that upon entering heaven all the sorrow and pain is removed from us, but he is incapable of correcting a flaw in perception of him and an inability to see him correctly that he himself made me with should your story be true?

As for the couples choosing to love each other and stay together, the couple already loves each other, but life is complicated and sometimes love isn't enough to maintain a relationship. I'll actually spell out the example I gave before then. Imagine the food you absolutely hate eating most in the world. It could be peanuts or mushrooms or oysters or whatever. Now you can choose to accept the fact that you're going to have to eat that food for whatever reason, but you cannot choose to change your emotional response to eating it. That feeling you get when you eat your favourite food, that "mmmmm that's gooood!", you cannot choose to feel that about your most hated food when you eat that, all you can do is choose to eat it and get on with it for whatever reason life has put in front of you. It's the same with the couples, the ones that choose to stay together aren't choosing to love each other, they already love each other, they are choosing to prioritise that love above all the other stuff life is throwing at them and make it work somehow.

You appear to be almost contradicting yourself here. I agree with the last statement, but not with much of what precedes it. The feeling of love may come and go, just as my feelings toward food may come and go. Mushrooms used to make me feel like vomiting but now I can stomach them; ketchup chips used to be my favorite but now it's BBQ (wow these are some cheesy analogies). Two people may feel love towards each other for a while, but ultimately it's their character of faithfulness and commitment which keeps them together. I'm not sure how we got off on this tangent anyway...moving along...

The tangent is relevant because you have just agreed that love is not a choice we make. It's an emotional response we have, which we have no more control over than whether we enjoy certain types of food. You didn't like mushrooms once, now you find them OK, but you don't love them in the same way as you love BBQ chips. Therefore to demand something we are incapable of choosing to fulfil, and for that demand to be the only demand for which there can be no possible forgiveness, marks God out as immoral and because the stakes are so high, a scumbag.

As for the last bit, he's done a good thing for us, brilliant! (I have many problems with why an all powerful, all loving being would need to use such an awkward, ineffective and easily misinterpretted way as the religion of christianity to achieve this but that's a tangent).

Meh, we who adhere to Christianity are humans and makes mistakes like anyone else; be careful about judging Christ based on the way we behave. We are but poor reflections of Him (2 Corinthians 3:18). Study Him and His life if you want a more accurate picture of what Christianity is all about.

But he's all powerful and all loving, so him doing one finite thing for us and then saying "well I can be a scumbag now for the rest of time because I gave them a chance with the Jesus thing" doesn't strike me as particularly moral. It wold be like me giving you a million dollars to improve your quality of life, but then coming round to your house every day and saying "do you genuinely love me" and if you have to truthfully answer no punching you in the face several times. When does the fact I gave you a million dollars get old, and you just leave what I gave you because you don't think I'm a good thing to have in your life?

I'm not sure where you get these impressions from; He didn't just give one finite thing or one million dollars; He gave Himself, His only Son, and we brutally killed Him (Matthew 21:33-39). What more can someone give than your life for another's (John 15:13)? That's what He did for you and for me. He could have just said "Those people down there chose to reject God? Screw them!" and continued to live in the glory of heaven while allowing us to continue towards destruction. But He didn't.

He didn't give anything permanent. he's still there, Jesus is sitting at his right hand. He/Jesus went through a load of pain and suffering for us if we take the story as true, but he didn't give his "life". He isn't dead now and we try and honour that death. He went through a change of form, that was painful maybe, though how an immortal, infinite being could feel that pain any more than I would feel a microscopic splinter is debatable. Being all powerful and all knowing, he could easily appear to each and every one of us, leaving us in no doubt that he exists, and tell us the truth. Being properly aware of the consequences of actions doesn't remove free will, it just makes stupid actions much less likely choices. Instead he gave us a religion (or a bunch of religions if you want to head towards Mooney-ism) that is vague, full of inconsistency and easily corruptible. Further to that, he offers infinite punishment for the finite crime of not being made (by him) in such a way that you can genuinely accept that religion as truth. Scumbag. (And by the way the fact he hasn't struck me down is just as much evidence that he doesn't exist at all as it is evidence that he is supremely benevolent)

Jesus came down and died for us, brilliant. NOW LOVE GOD OR FACE ETERNAL HELL FIRE!!!!! Nice message....

First of all, Hell wasn't created for mankind; it was created for Lucifer and the fallen angels who attempted to take God's place (Isaiah 14:12-15, Matthew 25:41). We, by choosing to follow the Lucifer rather than God, are thereby choosing to join his fate as well. God isn't a sadist saying "Yay! More fuel for the fires of hell;" He's calling all of us to turn away from the destination we are clearly choosing for ourselves each day based on the actions and choices we make (Ezekiel 33:11, Acts 17:30).

Say if I were going for a morning jog and happened to discover you sitting locked in your vehicle, parked on a railroad track with a train coming your way; if I were to yell at you "MOVE OFF THE TRACKS OR YOU'LL BE DEAD!" Would you critique my message or would you be willing to drive the few yards to safety? You could say it was insensitive of me to yell at you, or tell me I could express myself better, but how much more cruel would it be for me not to warn you at all!

There are 2 main differences. (1) The train is something I can look and see and hear and feel through the vibrations in the tracks and could not reasonably doubt that it exists if I am sitting on a train track. (2) The train is something I can choose to avoid. Loving a scumbag God isn't a choice I am capable of making, no matter how nicely the message is delivered.

Also, anyone who doesn't follow God is following Lucifer? So someone who has no belief or interest in anything supernatural at all, who lives the best life possible and who always makes the most moral choice possible throughout their whole life, but doesn't accept God. They are following Lucifer? This view is not only childishly simplistic, it's just plain absurd.

[Viceroy63]

I feel that I should mention here that eternal punishment is Death. The effect of death is for ever and that is eternal punishment. There is only torment involved in the actual dying. Any death is painful with some exception as in the case of those who die in their sleep. But experiencing your own death and knowing you are about to die has to carry with it some torment.

A lot of the times, people simply misinterpret the Bible meaning of eternal punishment but the reality is that we are not saved from eternal punishment but from death eternal. There is only one resurrection from the dead for each of us, according to the Bible. Those who are called and chosen, that is to say, those who have chosen to accept Christ in this life because they were called, will have their part in the first resurrection when Jesus arrives and need not fear eternal death. Those who are call to understanding in this life and yet reject that understanding will have their part in the Third Resurrection from the dead. Yes, there are three resurrections mentioned in the Bible.

Everyone else who was not called will be given their opportunity to repent and accept Jesus will have their chance in the Second Resurrection. All of those aborted children and children who died never knowing the Lord will rise in this resurrection. And the Second resurrection will be for about at least 100 years. Those who still do not accept Jesus in this resurrection will die in the like of fire which is the second death. And as mentioned the Third Resurrection will be for People who have obviously rejected their calling to the Lord in this life right now, as all who reject the calling in the second resurrection die the second death, then.

As for those who accept the main calling in the Second Resurrection, their eyes will be opened and they will know the truth then and eternal life given them as the reward of the righteous who choose not to deny Jesus after coming to that understanding. Eternal life is the reward and salvation from eternal death the gift of all who come to truly acknowledge the Lord and obey Him!

The final Judgement is not so much to judge men and their deeds but to judge God also. God must be judged and his action clearly defined and resolved as fair and absolutely just for all eternity and all questions about his judgment and love be answered right then and there and put to rest because they can not be allowed to continue into eternal existence possibly giving the opportunity for another "Lucifer Rising." On this awaits all of creation and even the angels who obey God knowing and seeing the truth already and wishing that they could preach the truth to us but they already have their jobs and ours is to preach the truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

The enemy would hope to confuse us and thus spreads a false gospel and the untruth about "Eternal Torment." Satan knows that if people can have it set in their hearts that God is unjust that they would not repent in the second resurrection but would deny Jesus to the very bitter end, and when Satan is finally released from his thousand year prison, he will be able to take those, whom God had created and denied their own Creator, into final destruction with him. That is the purpose of the lake of fire, to destroy all sin and the cause of sin after God and all of creation has been judged. And it is Satan's intent to take as many of God's creation into eternal destruction with him. That is the whole plan!

There is no eternal torment planned for all of eternity for mortal men and woman. Humans must first be immortal beings for that to happen, and we are not immortal beings, but we die plain and simple. So then salvation is not from torment but from the eternal death penalty for the crimes of our sins. From this second death, there are no more chances. There are simply no more resurrections after these. Only Death and not eternal torment. That is why it is ETERNAL DEATH!

I gotcha. "Live like there is no tomorrow!"

Sounds good.

Sounds good if eternal pleasure does not interest you.

We can't even imagine what it must be like living a life where no one suffers. Where little children do not go to bed hungry or die of starvation. We simply can not imagine a world full of joy and pleasure for ever more. But that is exactly the promised laid out to those who believe.

[crispybits]

Viceroy, you probably missed my question before as there has been a lot of dicsuusion sicne, but Jesus quite clearly thinks that the fire and brimstone version of hell is what is real. Scroll back a page or two and you'll see his direct quotes. So should I believe your "eternal nothing" over his "eternal fire" version, and if so why?