Racist accusations just a political strategy

[Doc_Brown]

Professor Mary Frances Berry said the following:

Tainting the tea party movement with the charge of racism is proving to be an effective strategy for Democrats. There is no evidence that tea party adherents are any more racist than other Republicans, and indeed many other Americans. But getting them to spend their time purging their ranks and having candidates distance themselves should help Democrats win in November. Having one’s opponent rebut charges of racism is far better than discussing joblessness.

I don't think I need to add anything.

[thegreekdog]

This is what I was looking for! Many thanks Doc.

[Woodruff]

This is what I was looking for! Many thanks Doc.

Not quite, unless I misunderstand. This statement seems to be someone stating that THEY BELIEVE that's what the Democrats are doing, rather than stating this as a policy statement from Democratic leadership. Which makes a big difference to me.

[thegreekdog]

This is what I was looking for! Many thanks Doc.

Not quite, unless I misunderstand. This statement seems to be someone stating that THEY BELIEVE that's what the Democrats are doing, rather than stating this as a policy statement from Democratic leadership. Which makes a big difference to me.

I think a Democrat stating that she believes this is what the Democrats are doing illustrates my point that this is a strategy, whether memorialized in a document or not. Whether it's an actual policy or policy statement from the Democratic leadership doesn't really matter to me (nor should it be relevant).

[Woodruff]

This is what I was looking for! Many thanks Doc.

Not quite, unless I misunderstand. This statement seems to be someone stating that THEY BELIEVE that's what the Democrats are doing, rather than stating this as a policy statement from Democratic leadership. Which makes a big difference to me.

I think a Democrat stating that she believes this is what the Democrats are doing illustrates my point that this is a strategy, whether memorialized in a document or not. Whether it's an actual policy or policy statement from the Democratic leadership doesn't really matter to me (nor should it be relevant).

I would disagree. "Making an observation" by way of opinion is not "making it so" by way of fact.

[thegreekdog]

This is what I was looking for! Many thanks Doc.

Not quite, unless I misunderstand. This statement seems to be someone stating that THEY BELIEVE that's what the Democrats are doing, rather than stating this as a policy statement from Democratic leadership. Which makes a big difference to me.

I think a Democrat stating that she believes this is what the Democrats are doing illustrates my point that this is a strategy, whether memorialized in a document or not. Whether it's an actual policy or policy statement from the Democratic leadership doesn't really matter to me (nor should it be relevant).

I would disagree. "Making an observation" by way of opinion is not "making it so" by way of fact.

How did Ms. Berry make an observation by way of opinion? There are no "I think" words in that quote.

[Doc_Brown]

It's worth pointing out that this lady was part of the US Commission on Civil Rights for 25 years and was the commission chair for 11 years. She's a professor of American Social Thought and of Legal and African American History. I think she's fully qualified to make a statement about the validity of charging the tea party with racism. As I read her statement, she's not judging whether or not the Democrats actually believe the tea partiers are essentially racist. She's simply saying that it's not clear that the racial motivations of those people are in any way outside the mainstream of Republicans or Americans in general, but that the accusations being hurled at them are at least partially effective in marginalizing them.

In short, she's saying that the groundless ad hominem attacks on the tea partiers are being helpful to the Democratic Party and are allowing the Democrats to sidestep the economic concerns the tea party is attempting to raise.

[thegreekdog]

It's worth pointing out that this lady was part of the US Commission on Civil Rights for 25 years and was the commission chair for 11 years. She's a professor of American Social Thought and of Legal and African American History. I think she's fully qualified to make a statement about the validity of charging the tea party with racism. As I read her statement, she's not judging whether or not the Democrats actually believe the tea partiers are essentially racist. She's simply saying that it's not clear that the racial motivations of those people are in any way outside the mainstream of Republicans or Americans in general, but that the accusations being hurled at them are at least partially effective in marginalizing them.

In short, she's saying that the groundless ad hominem attacks on the tea partiers are being helpful to the Democratic Party and are allowing the Democrats to sidestep the economic concerns the tea party is attempting to raise.

Which has been my point throughout this six month apparently fruitless attempt by me to show that the racist attacks on the Tea Party are nothing but politically motivated attacks to mask the issues the Tea Party is attempting to raise to political discourse.

[Metsfanmax]

The statement proves nothing. In order to prove that it's just a political ploy, and not an actual attempt to marginalize racists (who we generally agree are unwelcome), she would need to prove that the Democrats know that they aren't racists and are labeling them that anyway. But if the Tea Party members in question are indeed racist, then obviously it's a political strategy as well as a call for social justice - but it's not simply a political ploy.

It's rather arbitrary to take the word of someone who is not a Democratic politician as proof that the Democratic politicians are motivated this way.

[thegreekdog]

The statement proves nothing. In order to prove that it's just a political ploy, and not an actual attempt to marginalize racists (who we generally agree are unwelcome), she would need to prove that the Democrats know that they aren't racists and are labeling them that anyway. But if the Tea Party members in question are indeed racist, then obviously it's a political strategy as well as a call for social justice - but it's not simply a political ploy.

It's rather arbitrary to take the word of someone who is not a Democratic politician as proof that the Democratic politicians are motivated this way.

I guess you're assuming Ms. Berry's statements are the entirety of my proof. My proof is the lack of proof that the Tea Party movement is actually racist. It's not so much proving a negative.

Perhaps I can explain better. Instead of calling them Democrats, let's call them Accusers (which could consist of any number of people from any number of political affiliations... in other words, not just Democrats). The Accusers have made various accusations on national television and in print that the Tea Party movement is racist. They base their accusations, as far as I can tell, on a few things: (1) the signs that have been photographed at Tea Party events showing the president with a bone through his nose or monkeys or some other racist picture or phrase and (2) the allegation, unproven, that someone hurled a racial epithet at a black Congressman and/or spit on said Congressman. In response, the Tea Party spokespersons have indicated (1) We remove people who have a racist message and/or (2) Your allegations of racism are ridiculous and I refuse to respond to them; as evidence that they are ridiculous, let me point to various left-leaning groups that have had racial problems, for example the Black Panthers, the NAACP, the Democratic Party, and others; it is hypocritical to attack us and not fix your own house.

I find these allegations and the need to respond to be ridiculous. These allegations are similar to (although, in my opinion, more harmful) than the allegations that the Bush administration supporters threw around regarding being unpatriotic while criticizing the Patriot Act, the war, etc.

What concerns me most is that normally intelligent and rational people on these forums (like Woodruff and Player) and in other places (like my Democrat friends) are apparently taken in by these allegations and believe the Tea Party movement to embrace and harbor racists. I have been to Tea Party events, I'm semi-active in the Tea Party movement, and I have yet to see any signs of racism anywhere. With limited exceptions, I have yet to see racism on the news regarding Tea Party activities. I have yet to see any written or verbal policy of the Tea Party movement organizers that invites racists or racists remarks. Therefore, I find it ridiculous that I find myself continually defending the Tea Party movement against racist attacks. I would rather discuss economic and budgetary issues than whether or not the guy standing next to me is only there because the president is black.

[PLAYER57832]

Actually, this whole thread is a prime example of the REAL problem.

The REAL problem is that folks on all sides, would far rather throw out potent slurs and accusations than deal with issues. AND too many people think they can fully understand issues by listening to two minute blurbs and opinions of sensationalist, oftem extremist commentators.

The REAL problem is that discourse is dying and being replaced by people learning about "the other side" from blogs of people with whom they agree. Instead of debating issues, we wind up debating facts.

[thegreekdog]

Actually, this whole thread is a prime example of the REAL problem.

The REAL problem is that folks on all sides, would far rather throw out potent slurs and accusations than deal with issues. AND too many people think they can fully understand issues by listening to two minute blurbs and opinions of sensationalist, oftem extremist commentators.

The REAL problem is that discourse is dying and being replaced by people learning about "the other side" from blogs of people with whom they agree. Instead of debating issues, we wind up debating facts.

AGREED! And why was this thread (and the NAACP thread) created? What were those threads a reaction to?

[PLAYER57832]

Actually, this whole thread is a prime example of the REAL problem.

The REAL problem is that folks on all sides, would far rather throw out potent slurs and accusations than deal with issues. AND too many people think they can fully understand issues by listening to two minute blurbs and opinions of sensationalist, oftem extremist commentators.

The REAL problem is that discourse is dying and being replaced by people learning about "the other side" from blogs of people with whom they agree. Instead of debating issues, we wind up debating facts.

AGREED! And why was this thread (and the NAACP thread) created? What were those threads a reaction to?

To people who chose to jump to conclusions instead of truly spending the time looking at issues.

That said, this has become so pervasive that even folks like you and I who DO try can get "suckered in" because there are so few truly good sources of information. Now, I find it pretty telling that NPR was the first to question this accusation and to actually present all sides. Fox, etc... they all just posted the clip and let it go.

[thegreekdog]

Actually, this whole thread is a prime example of the REAL problem.

The REAL problem is that folks on all sides, would far rather throw out potent slurs and accusations than deal with issues. AND too many people think they can fully understand issues by listening to two minute blurbs and opinions of sensationalist, oftem extremist commentators.

The REAL problem is that discourse is dying and being replaced by people learning about "the other side" from blogs of people with whom they agree. Instead of debating issues, we wind up debating facts.

AGREED! And why was this thread (and the NAACP thread) created? What were those threads a reaction to?

To people who chose to jump to conclusions instead of truly spending the time looking at issues.

That said, this has become so pervasive that even folks like you and I who DO try can get "suckered in" because there are so few truly good sources of information. Now, I find it pretty telling that NPR was the first to question this accusation and to actually present all sides. Fox, etc... they all just posted the clip and let it go.

I don't really watch Fox or listen to NPR so I don't know (but kudos to NPR if they did). I hope other networks and news agencies take heed and do the same thing. I would hate for something patently false to affect people's views on the actual issues at hand.

[Metsfanmax]

I don't think very many people who are actually key players in the Democratic Party actually accused the Tea Party of racism...

[thegreekdog]

I don't think very many people who are actually key players in the Democratic Party actually accused the Tea Party of racism...

I'm not sure how one defines key players. I believe at least Jimmy Carter and Keith Olbermann have made such comments, though they are not Democrat leaders. The president has not made any specific remarks regarding Tea Party racism. I suppose I'll look up who has commented on racism.

[Metsfanmax]

I don't think very many people who are actually key players in the Democratic Party actually accused the Tea Party of racism...

I'm not sure how one defines key players. I believe at least Jimmy Carter and Keith Olbermann have made such comments, though they are not Democrat leaders. The president has not made any specific remarks regarding Tea Party racism. I suppose I'll look up who has commented on racism.

I agree that a lot of liberal-leaning pundits and others who support the Democrats are mostly responsible for making this such a major issue; I just don't think it's fair to blame this specifically on Democratic politicians.

[thegreekdog]

I don't think very many people who are actually key players in the Democratic Party actually accused the Tea Party of racism...

I'm not sure how one defines key players. I believe at least Jimmy Carter and Keith Olbermann have made such comments, though they are not Democrat leaders. The president has not made any specific remarks regarding Tea Party racism. I suppose I'll look up who has commented on racism.

I agree that a lot of liberal-leaning pundits and others who support the Democrats are mostly responsible for making this such a major issue; I just don't think it's fair to blame this specifically on Democratic politicians.

I'm not. I'm saying it's a strategy of Democrats (not leadership per se) in the same way the unpatriotic virtiol was a strategy of Republicans (not leadership per se). Actually relevant politicans rarely come out and say incendiary things.

[Night Strike]

I don't think very many people who are actually key players in the Democratic Party actually accused the Tea Party of racism...

They don't have to when they get all of their non-governmental arms to do the dirty work on their behalf.

[Woodruff]

This is what I was looking for! Many thanks Doc.

Not quite, unless I misunderstand. This statement seems to be someone stating that THEY BELIEVE that's what the Democrats are doing, rather than stating this as a policy statement from Democratic leadership. Which makes a big difference to me.

I think a Democrat stating that she believes this is what the Democrats are doing illustrates my point that this is a strategy, whether memorialized in a document or not. Whether it's an actual policy or policy statement from the Democratic leadership doesn't really matter to me (nor should it be relevant).

I would disagree. "Making an observation" by way of opinion is not "making it so" by way of fact.

How did Ms. Berry make an observation by way of opinion? There are no "I think" words in that quote.

It's quite simple to make a statement of opinion without using words of that nature. I can easily say "thegreekdog is a fine young man" and it is simply a statement of opinion, not a statement of fact even though it may be stated as a declarative.

It's worth pointing out that this lady was part of the US Commission on Civil Rights for 25 years and was the commission chair for 11 years. She's a professor of American Social Thought and of Legal and African American History. I think she's fully qualified to make a statement about the validity of charging the tea party with racism. As I read her statement, she's not judging whether or not the Democrats actually believe the tea partiers are essentially racist. She's simply saying that it's not clear that the racial motivations of those people are in any way outside the mainstream of Republicans or Americans in general, but that the accusations being hurled at them are at least partially effective in marginalizing them.
In short, she's saying that the groundless ad hominem attacks on the tea partiers are being helpful to the Democratic Party and are allowing the Democrats to sidestep the economic concerns the tea party is attempting to raise.

Oh, I agree completely. I'm not at all saying she's inaccurate in her observation about what she sees is being done. And her credentials absolutely lend significant weight to her statements in that regard. I'm just saying that a statement from her is not evidence that it is a planned strategy by Democratic leadership being passed down to the masses.

[Woodruff]

The statement proves nothing. In order to prove that it's just a political ploy, and not an actual attempt to marginalize racists (who we generally agree are unwelcome), she would need to prove that the Democrats know that they aren't racists and are labeling them that anyway. But if the Tea Party members in question are indeed racist, then obviously it's a political strategy as well as a call for social justice - but it's not simply a political ploy.

I think her statement that "There is no evidence that tea party adherents are any more racist than others" really does indicate she does believe it's simply a political ploy.

It's rather arbitrary to take the word of someone who is not a Democratic politician as proof that the Democratic politicians are motivated this way.

Given her credentials, I would have to give her statements a lot of weight. She's NOT simply "someone who is not a Democratic politician".

[Woodruff]

What concerns me most is that normally intelligent and rational people on these forums (like Woodruff and Player) and in other places (like my Democrat friends) are apparently taken in by these allegations and believe the Tea Party movement to embrace and harbor racists.

You clearly do not understand my position on the subject in the slightest. I'm curious which statements of mine have led you to believe this is my opinion?

Actually, this whole thread is a prime example of the REAL problem.
The REAL problem is that folks on all sides, would far rather throw out potent slurs and accusations than deal with issues. AND too many people think they can fully understand issues by listening to two minute blurbs and opinions of sensationalist, oftem extremist commentators.

I don't believe this lady can be considered sensationalist OR extremist.

[Woodruff]

I don't think very many people who are actually key players in the Democratic Party actually accused the Tea Party of racism...

I'm not sure how one defines key players. I believe at least Jimmy Carter and Keith Olbermann have made such comments, though they are not Democrat leaders. The president has not made any specific remarks regarding Tea Party racism. I suppose I'll look up who has commented on racism.

I agree that a lot of liberal-leaning pundits and others who support the Democrats are mostly responsible for making this such a major issue; I just don't think it's fair to blame this specifically on Democratic politicians.

I'm not. I'm saying it's a strategy of Democrats (not leadership per se) in the same way the unpatriotic virtiol was a strategy of Republicans (not leadership per se). Actually relevant politicans rarely come out and say incendiary things.

But isn't this precisely the same as your statements regarding the Tea Party leadership and their not opening up to racists in their membership? You're trying to say the same thing here that PLAYER was there.

By the way, thegreekdog, here was your original statement:

By the way, there is a Democrat memorandum out there somewhere that indicated that the best strategy to beat the Republicans in 2010 and 2012 is to make the Tea Party movement address racism and not the real economic issues. I believe the memo actually had something like, "even though there is no tangible proof or evidence." When I have some more time, I'll try to find it. My initial foray did not yield any results (although I heard it on a news program yesterday).

So this lady's statement is in no way "a Democratic memorandum". But you DO definitely appear to be saying it was a strategy of Democratic leadership.

[Woodruff]

I don't think very many people who are actually key players in the Democratic Party actually accused the Tea Party of racism...

They don't have to when they get all of their non-governmental arms to do the dirty work on their behalf.

Yes, those dirty Democrats...you'd never see Republicans doing that sort of thing!

[Metsfanmax]

I think her statement that "There is no evidence that tea party adherents are any more racist than others" really does indicate she does believe it's simply a political ploy.

I didn't say she doesn't believe it - I said she hasn't proven it, because she hasn't shown that the people doing this agree that Tea Party members are not racist in general. If they all truly believe that the Tea Party is filled with racists, then her argument is irrelevant.

Given her credentials, I would have to give her statements a lot of weight. She's NOT simply "someone who is not a Democratic politician".

This isn't an issue which requires "credentials" to examine. Either Democrats are knowingly engaging in a incendiary political ploy or they are not, but her comments on whether they are correct in calling the Tea Party is racist does not get to the heart of the issue.