Obama, the one-term president

[notyou2]

^^^^^
I am not the one that made the claim that I did not know what Marxism is. As it is, Marxism is a philosophy that can be expounded upon and since he brought it up, I have asked for him to give me his view of Marxism. He is also free to back-up his claim that I do not understand what Marxism is. Please do not jump into conversations if you are going to be utterly contemptuous about things. I asked him for a legitimate response. I was not asking for your usual snide trollish commentary.

Firstly if you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as a snidish troll that will only alienate you further. Secondly if you make statements you should be ready to back them up. You asserted that Obama is a Marxist and so is woody. I am asking you to back that assertion up by showing me your definition of Marxism and why Obama and Woodruff fit it. The reason I'm snide is that you always drop assertions like Obama is a Marxist and never try and back them up with actual facts or theory and it's really irritating. Also whenever anyone disagrees with you, like when they ask you to explain your latest assertion, you act condescending, childish and aggressive. Sometimes all at once.

shut up you peasant marxist

Fixed it for you. It required the condescending part increased.

[Baron Von PWN]

Sure! Marxism: A political ideology advocating; common ownership of land and capital, the abolition of private property and the destruction of bourgeois and Capitalist classes through violent revolution if necessary.

Marxist : Someone or something which follows the aims of Marxism.

I hope you learned something!

Thank you for the definition. I don't know if it was anything new but it was a nice refresher. So are you saying that Obama is not a true Marxist?

He certainly has increased government ownership of business/assets. He has engaged in class warfare. He has had mentors that believe in hardcore Marxism. He has certainly subverted capitalism in many ways. He may not be the pure Marxist that you personally envision when you think of a Marxist. I personally don't believe there is a pure Marxist at the end of the day though. Che, Lenin, Castro all used Marxism as a means to gain power for themselves.

Don't get me wrong. I know what you are saying. Marxism is a wonderful concept of selflessness, but it completely discounts the human nature element and I don't believe that Marxism in the pure form you speak of will do anything but devolve into Soviet Russia or some other form of chaos. In that sense I think Obama is doing a wonderful job of being a Marxist in the historical sense of the word.

I disagree Marxism is not a good concept. Obama hasn't proposed anything remotely close to marxist, nor has he even mused about anything remotely marxist. so no Obama is not a Marxist.

He has proposed some things which might be called socialist at a stretch. Marxist? hell no.

Marxism is the basis for socialism. When you say that Obama has not proposed anything resembling Marxism, you are clearly not living in reality.

Marxism is a good concept? To a degree sure. To use Obama's analogy, we are taught to share in Kindergarten. However the basis that it should be enforced even via a violent revolution just allows any nut job that wants power to pretend that he is working for the sake of some higher code. Che Guevara never hesitated to put a bullet in the brain of anyone that was a capitalist.

In the end state ran farms just distribute power to the elite. Don't kid yourself.

I actually said Marxism is a bad concept. Which it is. Any political system relying purely upon force and a singularity of view will have grave problems down the road.

What Marxist thing has Obama done? I will be greatly amused by your answer.

Yes Socialism did evolve from Marxism they are rather different though. You don't need to tell me how bad communist run enterprises were I study the soviet Union.

[Woodruff]

What Marxist thing has Obama done? I will be greatly amused by your answer.

I'm still waiting to hear about all the Marxist things I have supported...

[Snorri1234]

What Marxist thing has Obama done? I will be greatly amused by your answer.

I'm still waiting to hear about all the Marxist things I have supported...

In order to overcome the fetters of private property the working class must seize political power internationally through a social revolution and expropriate the capitalist classes around the world and place the productive capacities of society into collective ownership! WE MUST RISE UP!

[Woodruff]

What Marxist thing has Obama done? I will be greatly amused by your answer.

I'm still waiting to hear about all the Marxist things I have supported...

In order to overcome the fetters of private property the working class must seize political power internationally through a social revolution and expropriate the capitalist classes around the world and place the productive capacities of society into collective ownership! WE MUST RISE UP!

No dude, I'm King Doctor's multi (where has he been...banned?), not Saxi's...

[ViperOverLord]

Sure! Marxism: A political ideology advocating; common ownership of land and capital, the abolition of private property and the destruction of bourgeois and Capitalist classes through violent revolution if necessary.

Marxist : Someone or something which follows the aims of Marxism.

I hope you learned something!

Thank you for the definition. I don't know if it was anything new but it was a nice refresher. So are you saying that Obama is not a true Marxist?

He certainly has increased government ownership of business/assets. He has engaged in class warfare. He has had mentors that believe in hardcore Marxism. He has certainly subverted capitalism in many ways. He may not be the pure Marxist that you personally envision when you think of a Marxist. I personally don't believe there is a pure Marxist at the end of the day though. Che, Lenin, Castro all used Marxism as a means to gain power for themselves.

Don't get me wrong. I know what you are saying. Marxism is a wonderful concept of selflessness, but it completely discounts the human nature element and I don't believe that Marxism in the pure form you speak of will do anything but devolve into Soviet Russia or some other form of chaos. In that sense I think Obama is doing a wonderful job of being a Marxist in the historical sense of the word.

I disagree Marxism is not a good concept. Obama hasn't proposed anything remotely close to marxist, nor has he even mused about anything remotely marxist. so no Obama is not a Marxist.

He has proposed some things which might be called socialist at a stretch. Marxist? hell no.

Marxism is the basis for socialism. When you say that Obama has not proposed anything resembling Marxism, you are clearly not living in reality.

Marxism is a good concept? To a degree sure. To use Obama's analogy, we are taught to share in Kindergarten. However the basis that it should be enforced even via a violent revolution just allows any nut job that wants power to pretend that he is working for the sake of some higher code. Che Guevara never hesitated to put a bullet in the brain of anyone that was a capitalist.

In the end state ran farms just distribute power to the elite. Don't kid yourself.

I actually said Marxism is a bad concept. Which it is. Any political system relying purely upon force and a singularity of view will have grave problems down the road.

What Marxist thing has Obama done? I will be greatly amused by your answer.

Yes Socialism did evolve from Marxism they are rather different though. You don't need to tell me how bad communist run enterprises were I study the soviet Union.

You mean what has he done with the force of Marxism besides his socialistic policies?

- Well he has seeked to control the media content; control the message.

- He wanted to make health insurance compulsory.

- I don't think he's so stupid as to think that he will create a full revolution in his short window as president within a country like the USA. Clearly he subscribes to Marxism to a significant degree.

[Baron Von PWN]

You mean what has he done with the force of Marxism besides his socialistic policies?

- Well he has seeked to control the media content; control the message.

- He wanted to make health insurance compulsory.

- I don't think he's so stupid as to think that he will create a full revolution in his short window as president within a country like the USA. Clearly he subscribes to Marxism to a significant degree.

First of all you don't need to add the tic, Socialist will do just fine. Unless you mean to say they aren't actually socialist and simply socialist like? In which case I might agree.

-Certainly doesen't seem that way from my view point. Anyways a Marxist would have nationalized all the national media.

- Didin't he make health insurance compulsory? again not Marxist. Where is the opposition to capitalist and bourgeoisie. This is essentially heavily watered down democratic socialism. Extremely light on the socialism. This move benefits the Corporations and Bourgeois more than anything else, hardly marxist.

- The man isin't a Marxist, I wouldn't even call him a socialist. None of his rhetoric is fundamentally anti capitalist, none of his policies are fundamentally anti capitalist. He hasn't even expressed the slightest opposition to capitalism as a concept. So no he clearly doese not ascribe to marxism in any significant degree.

[ViperOverLord]

You mean what has he done with the force of Marxism besides his socialistic policies?

- Well he has seeked to control the media content; control the message.

- He wanted to make health insurance compulsory.

- I don't think he's so stupid as to think that he will create a full revolution in his short window as president within a country like the USA. Clearly he subscribes to Marxism to a significant degree.

First of all you don't need to add the tic, Socialist will do just fine. Unless you mean to say they aren't actually socialist and simply socialist like? In which case I might agree.

-Certainly doesen't seem that way from my view point. Anyways a Marxist would have nationalized all the national media.

- Didin't he make health insurance compulsory? again not Marxist. Where is the opposition to capitalist and bourgeoisie. This is essentially heavily watered down democratic socialism. Extremely light on the socialism. This move benefits the Corporations and Bourgeois more than anything else, hardly marxist.

- The man isin't a Marxist, I wouldn't even call him a socialist. None of his rhetoric is fundamentally anti capitalist, none of his policies are fundamentally anti capitalist. He hasn't even expressed the slightest opposition to capitalism as a concept. So no he clearly doese not ascribe to marxism in any significant degree.

- Yea sure Obama's a full f'ing capitalist. He's Milton F'ing Freeman pretty much. I can hardly tell the difference between Obama and Adam Smith. Get real dude.

- Obama can't nationalize the media. He simply can't. But he did try to filter the media when he tried to blackball Fox News from the White House Press Core. He ordered it and the other media outlets said they would not participate if he did that; so he relented.

- Obama Care is not a move to benefit corporations. Corporate premiums will increase. Certainly it can help American health insurance companies get fat, but it's not a matter of corporatism.

- Obama is Marxist. He's just smart enough to know that he can only incorporate a significant degree of his designs. Just because he hasn't abolished the Consitution is not proof that he's not a Marxist.

[Baron Von PWN]

- Yea sure Obama's a full f'ing capitalist. He's Milton F'ing Freeman pretty much. I can hardly tell the difference between Obama and Adam Smith. Get real dude.

- Obama can't nationalize the media. He simply can't. But he did try to filter the media when he tried to blackball Fox News from the White House Press Core. He ordered it and the other media outlets said they would not participate if he did that; so he relented.

- Obama Care is not a move to benefit corporations. Corporate premiums will increase. Certainly it can help American health insurance companies get fat, but it's not a matter of corporatism.

- Obama is Marxist. He's just smart enough to know that he can only incorporate a significant degree of his designs. Just because he hasn't abolished the Consitution is not proof that he's not a Marxist.

- didin't say that now did i? I said he hasn't said anything fundamentally opposed to capitalism, or proposed anything fundamentally opposed to capitalism. There is a difference between someone who isin't gun ho free market everything, and a marxist.

- That would be a move against press freedoms, something pursued by many people of all political stripes at one point or another through time. Not something which makes him a Marxist.

- It won't benefit corporations it will just make them fat with profit! OOOOHHHH I see clearly obamas secret Marxist plot is to make American health insurance companies richer.

-He isin't a Marxist and you sound ridiculous saying he is. It isin't possible to prove a negative, you have to provide proof he is. Everything you have provided isn't remotely Marxist.

[heavycola]

You mean what has he done with the force of Marxism besides his socialistic policies?

- He wanted to make health insurance compulsory.

...

- Obama is Marxist. He's just smart enough to know that he can only incorporate a significant degree of his designs. Just because he hasn't abolished the Consitution is not proof that he's not a Marxist.

Wait, whut? Now obama is a marxist? -

OMG he's a muslim!
Wait - he's introducing universal healthcare, a bit like jesus would have done -
OMG he's a marxist!

he's got a popular mandate to govern. End of. You ranting right-wing paranoiacs are hilariously good value though. A bit like glenn beck, although less brazenly hypocritical one hopes.

[Woodruff]

What Marxist thing has Obama done? I will be greatly amused by your answer.

I'm still waiting to hear about all the Marxist things I have supported...

...

[ViperOverLord]

- Yea sure Obama's a full f'ing capitalist. He's Milton F'ing Freeman pretty much. I can hardly tell the difference between Obama and Adam Smith. Get real dude.

- Obama can't nationalize the media. He simply can't. But he did try to filter the media when he tried to blackball Fox News from the White House Press Core. He ordered it and the other media outlets said they would not participate if he did that; so he relented.

- Obama Care is not a move to benefit corporations. Corporate premiums will increase. Certainly it can help American health insurance companies get fat, but it's not a matter of corporatism.

- Obama is Marxist. He's just smart enough to know that he can only incorporate a significant degree of his designs. Just because he hasn't abolished the Consitution is not proof that he's not a Marxist.

- didin't say that now did i? I said he hasn't said anything fundamentally opposed to capitalism, or proposed anything fundamentally opposed to capitalism. There is a difference between someone who isin't gun ho free market everything, and a marxist.

- That would be a move against press freedoms, something pursued by many people of all political stripes at one point or another through time. Not something which makes him a Marxist.

- It won't benefit corporations it will just make them fat with profit! OOOOHHHH I see clearly obamas secret Marxist plot is to make American health insurance companies richer.

-He isin't a Marxist and you sound ridiculous saying he is. It isin't possible to prove a negative, you have to provide proof he is. Everything you have provided isn't remotely Marxist.

Obama is not always going to give you your drive-through Marxism. He can't run a state media so he did the next best thing and tried to get rid of the media outlet that wasn't singing his praises.

Obama lived with his Communist grandfather for 9 years. Clearly, many of his principles rubbed off on him. Here's an account of Obama as a Marxist in college:

http://www.breitbart.tv/college-acquaintance-young-obama-was-pure-marxist-socialist/

[Phatscotty]

Oh, and all of Obamas writing in college are completely sealed, despite being the editor of a newspaper at Harvard. Why are they sealed? is it because they are too capitalist?

[notyou2]

Vole.....how old are you?

Many young people lean to the left in their early years out from under the wing of their family and school. They realize there is a much larger world out there than the world that many of them have been told about. I do not know if this is Obama's situation or not, nor do I care. I am simply saying that people look around and explore their options. Its natural. This can be related to alcohol and drugs, sexuality, political parties, or a host of other environmental influence/ideologies. So what.

Most settle down and actually grow more conservative with age.

I am sure that Obama is a good person and from what I can see is sometimes choosing right over political to his peril and detriment, but he is standing by his convictions and that should be admired even if you disagree with it. He appears to be a fairly decent and honest person with strong convictions. It is these characteristics for which I admire the man. He is also willing to stick to his guns even though it may hurt him in the long run. These ideals are not ideals the average politician adheres to. That's why he is a cut above the average politician and imho he is a breath of fresh air.

The world needs more men like him. I am jealous that we don't have a man like him for prime minister in Canada. I would vote for him.

You should consider yourself lucky to be a witness to the historic changes he is bringing to your country.

[ViperOverLord]

Vole.....how old are you?

Many young people lean to the left in their early years out from under the wing of their family and school. They realize there is a much larger world out there than the world that many of them have been told about. I do not know if this is Obama's situation or not, nor do I care. I am simply saying that people look around and explore their options. Its natural. This can be related to alcohol and drugs, sexuality, political parties, or a host of other environmental influence/ideologies. So what.

Most settle down and actually grow more conservative with age.

I am sure that Obama is a good person and from what I can see is sometimes choosing right over political to his peril and detriment, but he is standing by his convictions and that should be admired even if you disagree with it. He appears to be a fairly decent and honest person with strong convictions. It is these characteristics for which I admire the man. He is also willing to stick to his guns even though it may hurt him in the long run. These ideals are not ideals the average politician adheres to. That's why he is a cut above the average politician and imho he is a breath of fresh air.

The world needs more men like him. I am jealous that we don't have a man like him for prime minister in Canada. I would vote for him.

You should consider yourself lucky to be a witness to the historic changes he is bringing to your country.

Do I think that Obama is as Marxist as Lenin? Time will tell. I agree with you that views change overtime. Personally I feel that Obama's ideals of Marxism have shifted to pragmatic Marxism. He wants to operate with his Marxist foundation but he does not want to commit political suicide by going overboard.

"You should consider yourself lucky to be a witness to the historic changes he is bringing to your country." - LMAO. Which historical change should I be most proud of? The dismissal of states rights? Generational theft? The creation of a nanny state? The 'permanent vacation' of the American worker? Stop drinking your kool aid dude. Ask yourself how old you are.

I also love your starry eyed admiration argument that he is standing by his 'ideals' and he's not merely an 'average politician.' If someone made that argument about GWB back in the day you would not give a shiz yet you're trying to peddle that. That's just pathetic. Obama is not a person to 'admire.' He's a power broker that plays people like yourself.

[Timminz]

That makes complete sense. I'm sorry I ever called you delusional.

[notyou2]

He is NOT a marxist

[ViperOverLord]

He is NOT a marxist

The Nuh-Uh Defense. Classic.

[Timminz]

He is NOT a marxist

The Nuh-Uh Defense. Classic.

I'm pretty sure that's the only acceptable response to the "wild speculation" offense.

[ViperOverLord]

He is NOT a marxist

The Nuh-Uh Defense. Classic.

I'm pretty sure that's the only acceptable response to the "wild speculation" offense.

I'm not a fan of foe'ing Simmons, but I will not respond to your post for a significant period. You've indicated time and time again that you only want 'to get into it' rather than debate points.

[Timminz]

He is NOT a marxist

The Nuh-Uh Defense. Classic.

I'm pretty sure that's the only acceptable response to the "wild speculation" offense.

I'm not a fan of foe'ing Simmons, but I will not respond to your post for a significant period. You've indicated time and time again that you only want 'to get into it' rather than debate points.

Excellent points. Thank you for your time, professor.

[stahrgazer]

You mean what has he done with the force of Marxism besides his socialistic policies?

- Well he has seeked to control the media content; control the message.

- He wanted to make health insurance compulsory.

- I don't think he's so stupid as to think that he will create a full revolution in his short window as president within a country like the USA. Clearly he subscribes to Marxism to a significant degree.

Poor viper, you bought into the anti-Obama sales campaign. What's currently termed "Obamacare" looks nothing like what he proposed. What he proposed looked a little more like medicare and medicaid, except that you didn't need to be 65 or an unwed mother to get it.

Nor is Obama a Marxist. What he is, is a man who believes Capitalism works best when men have ethics; without those ethics, a good dose of federal oversight is required. He also agrees that it's difficult to get the federal oversight that's required when lobbyists buy our representation, a supply/demand system that works to get people re-elected but never fixes what's wrong with our country. If you read his books, you'd know that.

If you didn't buy into the hype, you'd realize that big businesses want an elitist, not a capitalist system; they want a system where they have all the money and all the power and the rest of us can go to the dogs. And they're good at buying up newspapers to call anyone who tries to make the public aware of this trend, "socialist," and "Marxist." As a society, middle-class and lower class Americans are no longer "the great unwashed," we're now "the poor brainwashed."

[Phatscotty]

does Obama have any prior exposure to Marxism? just asking. Has he ever commented on it, or denounced it etc...

[notyou2]

You mean what has he done with the force of Marxism besides his socialistic policies?

- Well he has seeked to control the media content; control the message.

- He wanted to make health insurance compulsory.

- I don't think he's so stupid as to think that he will create a full revolution in his short window as president within a country like the USA. Clearly he subscribes to Marxism to a significant degree.

Poor viper, you bought into the anti-Obama sales campaign. What's currently termed "Obamacare" looks nothing like what he proposed. What he proposed looked a little more like medicare and medicaid, except that you didn't need to be 65 or an unwed mother to get it.

Nor is Obama a Marxist. What he is, is a man who believes Capitalism works best when men have ethics; without those ethics, a good dose of federal oversight is required. He also agrees that it's difficult to get the federal oversight that's required when lobbyists buy our representation, a supply/demand system that works to get people re-elected but never fixes what's wrong with our country. If you read his books, you'd know that.

If you didn't buy into the hype, you'd realize that big businesses want an elitist, not a capitalist system; they want a system where they have all the money and all the power and the rest of us can go to the dogs. And they're good at buying up newspapers to call anyone who tries to make the public aware of this trend, "socialist," and "Marxist." As a society, middle-class and lower class Americans are no longer "the great unwashed," we're now "the poor brainwashed."

I enjoyed your post Stahr

[ViperOverLord]

You mean what has he done with the force of Marxism besides his socialistic policies?

- Well he has seeked to control the media content; control the message.

- He wanted to make health insurance compulsory.

- I don't think he's so stupid as to think that he will create a full revolution in his short window as president within a country like the USA. Clearly he subscribes to Marxism to a significant degree.

Poor viper, you bought into the anti-Obama sales campaign. What's currently termed "Obamacare" looks nothing like what he proposed. What he proposed looked a little more like medicare and medicaid, except that you didn't need to be 65 or an unwed mother to get it.

Nor is Obama a Marxist. What he is, is a man who believes Capitalism works best when men have ethics; without those ethics, a good dose of federal oversight is required. He also agrees that it's difficult to get the federal oversight that's required when lobbyists buy our representation, a supply/demand system that works to get people re-elected but never fixes what's wrong with our country. If you read his books, you'd know that.

If you didn't buy into the hype, you'd realize that big businesses want an elitist, not a capitalist system; they want a system where they have all the money and all the power and the rest of us can go to the dogs. And they're good at buying up newspapers to call anyone who tries to make the public aware of this trend, "socialist," and "Marxist." As a society, middle-class and lower class Americans are no longer "the great unwashed," we're now "the poor brainwashed."

So because Obama didn't get his full version of ObamaCare passed that somehow makes it less Marxist? Also, please don't talk to me like I'm some kind of idiot. I know what got proposed and I know what got passed. He wanted healthcare for everyone regardless of income and instead he passed the requirement that everyone buy it. I know what the f happened.

Also you're the one drinking the kool aid. If Obama was worried about the ethics of health care he would have focused on tort reform. He did not do that. He wanted people like your self to buy the 'hype' that this was an ethical manner. No, this government control, this is not 'oversight'. You cannot definitively say that any effective oversight has been added. I would say its worse because he created hundreds of agencies with undefined power and a willingness to constantly pass the buck when the time comes.

I also find it funny that you can't even admit to yourself that you are subscribing to socialist principles. You somehow resent the label even as you advocate Obama's socialism. How sad. I agree that you clearly are the poor brainwashed.