Bradley Manning: Traitor?

[Symmetry]

The last thread on Assange's arrest kind of got off topic with this, so I'll put it here and see what people think.

What do you think about the way he's been treated without a trial? Has any of the hyperbole panned out? Or have the leaked cables been in the public interest?
'You can hear Bradley Manning coming because of the chains'

[Hannibał]

Yes. He's a traitor to all his service members. Capital punishment should have happened months ago instead of isolating him in prison. I believe assange should not be targeted with all his false charges, but manning VOLUNTEERED to be in the service during war times, the coward knew what he signed up for..

[Woodruff]

The last thread on Assange's arrest kind of got off topic with this, so I'll put it here and see what people think.

What do you think about the way he's been treated without a trial? Has any of the hyperbole panned out? Or have the leaked cables been in the public interest?
'You can hear Bradley Manning coming because of the chains'

Hard to tell if he's a traitor or not, without access to the information. My guess is that he is not, but that's purely a guess.

However, that is irrelevant to the way he has been treated without a trial, which is treasonous in itself.

[Woodruff]

Yes. He's a traitor to all his service members. Capital punishment should have happened months ago instead of isolating him in prison. I believe assange should not be targeted with all his false charges, but manning VOLUNTEERED to be in the service during war times, the coward knew what he signed up for..

He also VOLUNTEERED to defend the Constitution of the United States. If the United States government is conducting illegal activities, isn't it his DUTY to expose them?

[Ace Rimmer]

1. He committed treason (defined: a crime that undermines the offender's government) so yes, he is a traitor. When granted access to classified information, he agreed to keep it classified, which he did not do. He violated the law by releasing classified information. That's fairly cut and dry.

2. He should be treated fairly and constitutionally, which it seems that he is not (I'm not following the story too closely). Regardless of the criminal or crime, everyone has rights and his should not be infringed.

3. IMHO, it is his MORAL duty to expose illegal activities, but you can do what's morally right and still commit treason. the Libyan air pilots that intentionally crashed their planes instead of bombing civilians were in the right, but still committed treason.

[Woodruff]

1. He committed treason (defined: a crime that undermines the offender's government) so yes, he is a traitor. When granted access to classified information, he agreed to keep it classified, which he did not do. He violated the law by releasing classified information. That's fairly cut and dry.

2. He should be treated fairly and constitutionally, which it seems that he is not (I'm not following the story too closely). Regardless of the criminal or crime, everyone has rights and his should not be infringed.

3. IMHO, it is his MORAL duty to expose illegal activities, but you can do what's morally right and still commit treason. the Libyan air pilots that intentionally crashed their planes instead of bombing civilians were in the right, but still committed treason.

I would suggest it is MORE THAN just his moral duty to expose illegal activities. In the military, we are trained that illegal orders are just that...illegal, and should be exposed and not be followed. So I would say it is his ACTUAL MILITARY DUTY to expose illegal activities (if that is, in fact, what he exposed).

[spurgistan]

Yes. He's a traitor to all his service members. Capital punishment should have happened months ago instead of isolating him in prison. I believe assange should not be targeted with all his false charges, but manning VOLUNTEERED to be in the service during war times, the coward knew what he signed up for..

Given the unconstitutional horrors he's been through, at least some of which he had to know would happen by allegedly (I use allegedly here because he has not been charged with or convicted of any crime, and I'm an American who thinks that the Constitution means something) disclosing confidential documents, the term "Coward" is an odd descriptor of Bradley Manning.

[Juan_Bottom]

Jesus Christs people. We had this giant-ass World War from Asia to Europe and in it's aftermath we learned what treason actually is. Woodruff is 100% correct. Illegal and unconscionable orders do not have to be followed, and the Constitution will always trump some pentagon CO's definition of treason.
That said (and for the love of God remember it), I haven't heard a good argument that say's he's not a traitor. It doesn't seem that we've learned much in the way of cover-ups or conspiracy's.

[Phatscotty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f32I55wXabE Dylan Ratigan INT on Manning

[BigBallinStalin]

It's not surprising how he's being treated. On one hand, it seems that intelligence agencies need to maintain a high degree of secrecy, while on the other hand, transparency is necessary for promoting trust.

[BigBallinStalin]

@Woodruff and/or JB

What was illegal about the orders given?

Are you two talking about the orders requiring embassy and consulate members to collect information on their host countries/particular individuals?

[spurgistan]

It's not surprising how he's being treated. On one hand, it seems that intelligence agencies need to maintain a high degree of secrecy, while on the other hand, transparency is necessary for promoting trust.

How is it unsurprising, exactly? I am surprised that my country tortures people who ALLEGEDLY (probably, yes, but again, not charged or convicted. due process) leaked state secrets. Even if he did, this isn't the USSR, bro.

[MeDeFe]

@Woodruff and/or JB

What was illegal about the orders given?

Are you two talking about the orders requiring embassy and consulate members to collect information on their host countries/particular individuals?

Given that there hasn't been a trial and that it hasn't been ascertained whether he leaked any materials, and if he did, which exactly, it is hard to say at this point. Shooting at reporters and people who hadn't shown signs of hostility comes to mind, though, and yes, Manning has been considered a candidate for having leaked the "collateral murder" video.

[Juan_Bottom]

@Woodruff and/or JB

What was illegal about the orders given?

That said (and for the love of God remember it), I haven't heard a good argument that say's he's not a traitor.

The other's are right when they say that it's not right and it's not American to hold a citizen indefinitely without even charging them. But from all the stuff that has been leaked, I haven't seen anything so important that the world just had to be told. I do like what he did, but I'm not defending his actions.

[Symmetry]

@Woodruff and/or JB

What was illegal about the orders given?

That said (and for the love of God remember it), I haven't heard a good argument that say's he's not a traitor.

The other's are right when they say that it's not right and it's not American to hold a citizen indefinitely without even charging them. But from all the stuff that has been leaked, I haven't seen anything so important that the world just had to be told. I do like what he did, but I'm not defending his actions.

A fair point, but I suppose it depends on what you rank as important. If he was responsible for the leaks, it looks like the cover up of US forces killing those journalists and civilians in the "Collateral Murder" thing kicked it off, but there's plenty of interesting stuff if you dig through other documents:

Wikileaks cables show Japan ignored warnings over earthquake safety in nuclear power plants

[MeDeFe]

@Woodruff and/or JB

What was illegal about the orders given?

That said (and for the love of God remember it), I haven't heard a good argument that say's he's not a traitor.

The other's are right when they say that it's not right and it's not American to hold a citizen indefinitely without even charging them. But from all the stuff that has been leaked, I haven't seen anything so important that the world just had to be told. I do like what he did, but I'm not defending his actions.

A fair point, but I suppose it depends on what you rank as important. If he was responsible for the leaks, it looks like the cover up of US forces killing those journalists and civilians in the "Collateral Murder" thing kicked it off, but there's plenty of interesting stuff if you dig through other documents:

Wikileaks cables show Japan ignored warnings over earthquake safety in nuclear power plants

US diplomats pressuring government officials and MPs in Spain for stricter legislation regarding filesharing also comes to mind. They were intruding on what is clearly a domestic issue and the Spanish public had every right to know.

[Juan_Bottom]

I'm not saying that they didn't need to know but that's not something that put the American public at danger. Is it against American law to pressure foreigners? Er, is there a treaty we have signed?

[Symmetry]

Flicking through some stuff on wiki, the leaks about DynCorp really stood out.

Wikileaks Embassy Cables-DynCorp

"Employees of DynCorp, a US government contractor funded by US tax dollars, in Afghanistan paid for the services of underage "dancing boys", apparently a euphemistic reference to Bacha bazi, which is considered child prostitution. The boys were auctioned off to be sexually abused by Afghan policemen, with some to be kept as sex slaves and participate in events funded by DynCorp"

This from an organisation 96% federally funded. Kind of puts the NPR, ACORN, and Planned Parenthood stuff in a bit of perspective when it comes to what US tax dollars are paying for. The weird thing is that it wasn't even the first time they've been in trouble for trafficking children into sex slavery:
DynCorp and Child Prostitution in Bosnia

[Woodruff]

Yes. He's a traitor to all his service members. Capital punishment should have happened months ago instead of isolating him in prison. I believe assange should not be targeted with all his false charges, but manning VOLUNTEERED to be in the service during war times, the coward knew what he signed up for..

Given the unconstitutional horrors he's been through, at least some of which he had to know would happen by allegedly (I use allegedly here because he has not been charged with or convicted of any crime, and I'm an American who thinks that the Constitution means something) disclosing confidential documents, the term "Coward" is an odd descriptor of Bradley Manning.

I'm somehow reminded of another thread where that term was used. Wrongly there, as well.

[Woodruff]

@Woodruff and/or JB
What was illegal about the orders given?
Are you two talking about the orders requiring embassy and consulate members to collect information on their host countries/particular individuals?

I have specifically and clearly stated that I don't know all of the information, which is why I have used terms such as "alleged" and "if". But that's the problem...because he's not being charged, he's not being tried. And because he's not being tried, nobody fucking knows. And because nobody fucking knows, he's able to be kept in conditions that are unconscionable.

[Symmetry]

@Woodruff and/or JB
What was illegal about the orders given?
Are you two talking about the orders requiring embassy and consulate members to collect information on their host countries/particular individuals?

I have specifically and clearly stated that I don't know all of the information, which is why I have used terms such as "alleged" and "if". But that's the problem...because he's not being charged, he's not being tried. And because he's not being tried, nobody fucking knows. And because nobody fucking knows, he's able to be kept in conditions that are unconscionable.

He's been charged with quite a lot of stuff, but you're right that trial is the key. Just being charged with something doesn't mean you should be punished for that crime.

There's a weird acceptance among some people that you just need to shout "traitor" or "terrorist" nowadays and you can forget about evidence, justice, law, or due process.

[Hannibał]

Yes. He's a traitor to all his service members. Capital punishment should have happened months ago instead of isolating him in prison. I believe assange should not be targeted with all his false charges, but manning VOLUNTEERED to be in the service during war times, the coward knew what he signed up for..

Given the unconstitutional horrors he's been through, at least some of which he had to know would happen by allegedly (I use allegedly here because he has not been charged with or convicted of any crime, and I'm an American who thinks that the Constitution means something) disclosing confidential documents, the term "Coward" is an odd descriptor of Bradley Manning.

You act as if he was infantry. And whoever replyed to me and said he volunteered to protect the constitution, I was in the army..its a job, I knew of very few true patriots (being reason they enlisted, through bct and ait school your programmed to have pride) and sure he could have just refused orders and took the reprucusions..he did NOT have to steal classified information and give them for everyone to see.. very ignorant to think that is ok.. everyone knows the goverment is not some holy saint, they have been and are engaged in illegal activities and always will be. The price of doing buissness, I challange you to prove any country that has not done questionable things..and I am against many things the USA does, I'm against our wars, but that dosent make his actions tolerable.

[Hannibał]

And with everyone saying he's not convicted, that's very true. Sadly he is already found guilty due to media propaganda. The way I interpretted the question it was as if assuming he was guilty, not a poll of is he innocent or guilty.

[Symmetry]

And with everyone saying he's not convicted, that's very true. Sadly he is already found guilty due to media propaganda. The way I interpretted the question it was as if assuming he was guilty, not a poll of is he innocent or guilty.

Thanks for the clarification- your first post was kind of chilling without that context. To be fair, it still is to me, but I apologise if the poll and OP were ambiguous.

[SirSebstar]

......

....... But from all the stuff that has been leaked, I haven't seen anything so important that the world just had to be told. I do like what he did, but I'm not defending his actions.

I am wondering, how is it that if the information manning gave is not important, how this would undermine the USA government more then the actions they have committed?
After all, if the information is not important then there is no question of undermining the military might of the USA. If the information is relevant, then he breached his confidentiality agreement, but he has a moral duty to do so, and thus should be exonerated.
Secrecy for the sake of secrecy is a very bad idea that can only foster illegal and unconstitutional actions