American gun culture

[Symmetry]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

[Army of GOD]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

I guess, but your diction makes it sound like you're right and they're wrong.

I have no clue where I stand on gun control. Both sides, like most debates, are annoying as f*ck. But if I had to lean one way or the other, I'd lean in favor of less gun control.

Europe is not the United States. The US has a much larger diversity than Europe and A LOT more social conflicts, so I find it very inappropriate for Europeans to discuss gun stats with the US.

But the culture of the US is to defend your house if you're being robbed, or held up, or whatever. Whether it's barbaric or more dangerous or what, I am forced to support the crazies.

[Symmetry]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

I guess, but your diction makes it sound like you're right and they're wrong.

I have no clue where I stand on gun control. Both sides, like most debates, are annoying as f*ck. But if I had to lean one way or the other, I'd lean in favor of less gun control.

Europe is not the United States. The US has a much larger diversity than Europe and A LOT more social conflicts, so I find it very inappropriate for Europeans to discuss gun stats with the US.

But the culture of the US is to defend your house if you're being robbed, or held up, or whatever. Whether it's barbaric or more dangerous or what, I am forced to support the crazies.

How's that working out?

[Phatscotty]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

fantasy stuff! HAHAHAHA! oh my goodness that is rich!

Dang why are you so obsessed with America mate! Guns are for defense of life, defense of property, and defense of freedom. Typical though to blame the people/culture for/of legal gun ownership rather than blame the criminals who break the law.

[Symmetry]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

fantasy stuff! HAHAHAHA! oh my goodness that is rich!

Dang why are you so obsessed with America mate! Guns are for defense of life, defense of property, and defense of freedom.

I lived there, and spend a lot of time there.

In the UK, or say Canada, guns are mostly tools or for recreational use. It's really only in the US that I see fantasy thinking about what guns do. As you suggested, it seems to be that there's a fantasy that someday you will be an action hero and save a life, or defend freedom.

The bigger the gun, the bigger chance to save a life or defend freedom. It's almost as if the more guns you have the more free you are sometimes.

[Phatscotty]

I suggested I would not freeze up and would try to save my life, as well as other lives. Wouldn't you? There is no fantasy there. I mean, who the hell fantasizes that they are out shopping, or at a socialist island retreat, and all of a sudden gunfire erupts? I don't think so. If I was in a shopping mall and I heard gunshots would I run towards them? No! If the gunman even thought about coming close to me, would I drop his ass? Yes! To be a hero? No! To save my life and other lives? YES!

Odds are that isn't going to happen, but when it comes to odds, I like 100% certainty that I have the best chance to survive the scenario, which god willing will never happen.

[Symmetry]

I suggested I would not freeze up and would try to save my life, as well as other lives. Wouldn't you? There is no fantasy there. I mean, who the hell fantasizes that they are out shopping, or at a socialist island retreat, and all of a sudden gunfire erupts? I don't think so. If I was in a shopping mall and I heard gunshots would I run towards them? No! If the gunman even thought about coming close to me, would I drop his ass? Yes! To be a hero? No! To save my life and other lives? YES!

Odds are that isn't going to happen, but when it comes to odds, I like 100% certainty that I have the best chance to survive the scenario, which god willing will never happen.

Kind of sounds like fantasising about what you might do. No? These all being situations that you're fantasing about yourself being in?

[Phatscotty]

I suggested I would not freeze up and would try to save my life, as well as other lives. Wouldn't you? There is no fantasy there. I mean, who the hell fantasizes that they are out shopping, or at a socialist island retreat, and all of a sudden gunfire erupts? I don't think so. If I was in a shopping mall and I heard gunshots would I run towards them? No! If the gunman even thought about coming close to me, would I drop his ass? Yes! To be a hero? No! To save my life and other lives? YES!

Odds are that isn't going to happen, but when it comes to odds, I like 100% certainty that I have the best chance to survive the scenario, which god willing will never happen.

Kind of sounds like fantasising about what you might do. No? These all being situations that you're fantasing about yourself being in?

Well Symm, every responsible gun owner thinks about how they would react before the need to react arises, and that is a fact. If you don't think about how you are going to handle a gun, you have no business carrying one. There are a few levels of gun ownership we would have to visit to round out your fantasies about fantasies of American gun owners. Honestly I don't totally disagree with your overall point, as I am sure that gun culture somewhat and in some ways does affect shootings. I just find it more sane to blame the criminal, and not the weapon, or the culture.

And I think if anything, the culture of "thou shall not murder" being forgotten and our morals being under attack has far more to do with murder than gun culture does.

[Symmetry]

I suggested I would not freeze up and would try to save my life, as well as other lives. Wouldn't you? There is no fantasy there. I mean, who the hell fantasizes that they are out shopping, or at a socialist island retreat, and all of a sudden gunfire erupts? I don't think so. If I was in a shopping mall and I heard gunshots would I run towards them? No! If the gunman even thought about coming close to me, would I drop his ass? Yes! To be a hero? No! To save my life and other lives? YES!

Odds are that isn't going to happen, but when it comes to odds, I like 100% certainty that I have the best chance to survive the scenario, which god willing will never happen.

Kind of sounds like fantasising about what you might do. No? These all being situations that you're fantasing about yourself being in?

Well Symm, every responsible gun owner thinks about how they would react before the need to react arises, and that is a fact. If you don't think about how you are going to handle a gun, you have no business carrying one. There are a few levels of gun ownership we would have to visit to round out your fantasies about fantasies of American gun owners. Honestly I don't totally disagree with your overall point, as I am sure that gun culture somewhat and in some ways does affect shootings. I just find it more sane to blame the criminal, and not the weapon, or the culture.

And I think the culture of "thou shall not murder" and morals being under attack has far more to do with murder than gun culture does.

Kind of the irresponible ones fantasising about home defense and stopping crime that this thread is about.

[QoH]

I see your view on this Symm. I'll get back to you, and Scottie's talk about "defending your freedom" in a bit.

[Phatscotty]

I suggested I would not freeze up and would try to save my life, as well as other lives. Wouldn't you? There is no fantasy there. I mean, who the hell fantasizes that they are out shopping, or at a socialist island retreat, and all of a sudden gunfire erupts? I don't think so. If I was in a shopping mall and I heard gunshots would I run towards them? No! If the gunman even thought about coming close to me, would I drop his ass? Yes! To be a hero? No! To save my life and other lives? YES!

Odds are that isn't going to happen, but when it comes to odds, I like 100% certainty that I have the best chance to survive the scenario, which god willing will never happen.

Kind of sounds like fantasising about what you might do. No? These all being situations that you're fantasing about yourself being in?

Well Symm, every responsible gun owner thinks about how they would react before the need to react arises, and that is a fact. If you don't think about how you are going to handle a gun, you have no business carrying one. There are a few levels of gun ownership we would have to visit to round out your fantasies about fantasies of American gun owners. Honestly I don't totally disagree with your overall point, as I am sure that gun culture somewhat and in some ways does affect shootings. I just find it more sane to blame the criminal, and not the weapon, or the culture.

And I think the culture of "thou shall not murder" and morals being under attack has far more to do with murder than gun culture does.

Kind of the irresponible ones fantasising about home defense and stopping crime that this thread is about.

Fantasizing about home defense? stopping crime? I don't know what you are talking about I guess.

[Symmetry]

I suggested I would not freeze up and would try to save my life, as well as other lives. Wouldn't you? There is no fantasy there. I mean, who the hell fantasizes that they are out shopping, or at a socialist island retreat, and all of a sudden gunfire erupts? I don't think so. If I was in a shopping mall and I heard gunshots would I run towards them? No! If the gunman even thought about coming close to me, would I drop his ass? Yes! To be a hero? No! To save my life and other lives? YES!

Odds are that isn't going to happen, but when it comes to odds, I like 100% certainty that I have the best chance to survive the scenario, which god willing will never happen.

Kind of sounds like fantasising about what you might do. No? These all being situations that you're fantasing about yourself being in?

Well Symm, every responsible gun owner thinks about how they would react before the need to react arises, and that is a fact. If you don't think about how you are going to handle a gun, you have no business carrying one. There are a few levels of gun ownership we would have to visit to round out your fantasies about fantasies of American gun owners. Honestly I don't totally disagree with your overall point, as I am sure that gun culture somewhat and in some ways does affect shootings. I just find it more sane to blame the criminal, and not the weapon, or the culture.

And I think the culture of "thou shall not murder" and morals being under attack has far more to do with murder than gun culture does.

Kind of the irresponible ones fantasising about home defense and stopping crime that this thread is about.

Fantasizing about home defense? stopping crime? I don't know what you are talking about I guess.

Owning a gun doesn't really do much to stop crime, nor does it defend many homes. The US has a problem with gun relatd crimes. Far more of a problem than countries with related ownership per capita. I think that America has a problem with what American culture thinks guns are for.

That they should be for fantasy scenarios, rather than, say, hunting, or protecting a farm from animals. From my experience, a lot of Americans, not all, buy guns to kill people.

[saxitoxin]

The UK has a very serious problem with knife crime. If knives were banned I'm certain the UK would have a serious problem with stick crime. It happens that sticks aren't as lethal as knives, nor knives as lethal as guns. Ultimately the problem is with the degeneracy of western culture, not what tools individual western nations have to express their perversions or what bright lines have been set from country to country.

Everything is a trade off. The US has higher rates of gun crime than the UK, the UK has traded their low level of gun crime for the highest rates of property crime and rape in the western world. Until western civilization is eradicated, these types of discussions are nonsensical nationalist chest thumping and nothing more. They're the intellectual fodder of the moron class.

[Phatscotty]

Kind of sounds like fantasising about what you might do. No? These all being situations that you're fantasing about yourself being in?

Well Symm, every responsible gun owner thinks about how they would react before the need to react arises, and that is a fact. If you don't think about how you are going to handle a gun, you have no business carrying one. There are a few levels of gun ownership we would have to visit to round out your fantasies about fantasies of American gun owners. Honestly I don't totally disagree with your overall point, as I am sure that gun culture somewhat and in some ways does affect shootings. I just find it more sane to blame the criminal, and not the weapon, or the culture.

And I think the culture of "thou shall not murder" and morals being under attack has far more to do with murder than gun culture does.

Kind of the irresponible ones fantasising about home defense and stopping crime that this thread is about.

Fantasizing about home defense? stopping crime? I don't know what you are talking about I guess.

Owning a gun doesn't really do much to stop crime, nor does it defend many homes. The US has a problem with gun relatd crimes. Far more of a problem than countries with related ownership per capita. I think that America has a problem with what American culture thinks guns are for.

That they should be for fantasy scenarios, rather than, say, hunting, or protecting a farm from animals. From my experience, a lot of Americans, not all, buy guns to kill people.

Sorry. I just flat out disagree. What do you base your statements on that guns do not protect homes? Owning a gun has an excellent chance of preventing a crime against the gun owner.

Just 1 Americans opinion here, but the problem lies more in people thinking they can take whatever they want from whoever they want, including lives. I agree with Saxi some, that it's the degradation of society. Just some of the reasons I would point out is lack of morals, people justifying crime based on how poor they are or what their reasons were for the crime, our falling away from "thou shall not kill" "thou shall not steal" not to mention a basic abandonment of property rights by a small but loud segment of society. Overall, we are becoming more and more a society that justifies what can be taken from people. I think these thing by far outweigh the culture of guns.

It's not the weapon an evil doer chooses, it's the heart of the evil doer and the failure to instill a sense of morals and responsibility.

[radiojake]

.... Overall, we are becoming more and more a society that justifies what can be taken from people. I think these thing by far outweigh the culture of guns.

Not going to get into the gun aspect of this thread, I've done that enough times - But this quote needed some attention.

We are becoming a society that justifies what can be taken from people? Scotty, Scotty, Scotty... we have been like that right from the start of industrial civilisation, even before.

European colonies have justified for centuries the apropriation of indigenous lands and resources - Do not start pretending that it is just starting now.

Private property is inherently violent - That property was taken from people well before you built your house and armed yourself with a shotgun.

You reap what you sow - You are worried about 'your' land and property being taken, yet that is exactly what your ancestors (and mine in Australia, and others elsewhere in the colonial world) have done for centuries.

[saxitoxin]

I lived there, and spend a lot of time there.

This veers a bit off-topic, but it got me to thinking of something else. Typically when a Briton says the above it means they spend 4 days each winter at DisneyWorld and 4 days each summer in Manhattan. I've never been convinced that alternating between an amusement park and the matinee showing of Hairspray qualifies one much to the nuances of the life of any nation.

New York and Orlando are probably the two most awful cities on the planet Earth. Just terrible places. I've often wondered if the fact that they're the only two that 99% of Europeans visit may have an impact on the generally negative perception of the U.S. among continentals. On the other hand, the Japanese, visiting places like Honolulu, San Francisco and - dare I say - even here in the American Riviera, Santa Barbara, have a generally positive perception.

Similarly, Canadians tend not to leave North America much so most of their foreign exposure is to dumps like Detroit and Buffalo, since the U.S. - either intentionally or not - has arrayed their worst cities along the northern border. Does this contribute to the breathless exhortations of national self-confidence that Canadians so boorishly trumpet to anyone they can trick into listening? If San Diego, Savannah and Austin were in the north would Canadians be a little more tolerable?

These are interesting questions that merit discussion. Perhaps even their own thread.

[Symmetry]

Sorry. I just flat out disagree. What do you base your statements on that guns do not protect homes? Owning a gun has an excellent chance of preventing a crime against the gun owner.

Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed

Despite the US having the highest rate of firearms-related homicide in the industrialised world, the relationship between gun culture and violence is poorly understood. A recent study found that treating violence like an infectious disease led to a dramatic fall in shootings and killings.

Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

So yeah- I would say that owning a gun isn't exactly the best choice for keeping you safe.

[saxitoxin]

Sorry. I just flat out disagree. What do you base your statements on that guns do not protect homes? Owning a gun has an excellent chance of preventing a crime against the gun owner.

Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed

Despite the US having the highest rate of firearms-related homicide in the industrialised world, the relationship between gun culture and violence is poorly understood. A recent study found that treating violence like an infectious disease led to a dramatic fall in shootings and killings.

Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

So yeah- I would say that owning a gun isn't exactly the best choice for keeping you safe.

I recall this study since it didn't account for suicidal shootings. When death of gun owners was juxtaposed against the general public using "violence" as the singular adjustment, without accounting for tool or implement, there was - not surprisingly (IIRC something like half of gun deaths in the U.S. are suicides, which would presumably still happen even in the absence of a firearm) - statistical equity.

Perhaps we can just end this thread with this message, all sing Rule Britannia, salute the union colours and call it a night? The Monday Sym-Rants are usually more creative than a retread gun monologue. Back when ol' Saxi was younger, if I had a lot of tension from a long day, I'd spend an hour with my trusty boxing gloves and a sandbag at the Dresden Municipal Gymnasium No. 12, instead of starting passive-aggressive internet forum threads (of course we didn't have the internet, though I never recall making passive-aggressive shortwave radio broadcasts ribbing Belgium). Strange times in which we live, gang.

Actually now that I think of it, I do believe I regularly made passive-aggressive shortwave radio transmissions about Belgium. Call sign DM3JOI. Miss the old DM prefix.

[BigBallinStalin]

Sorry. I just flat out disagree. What do you base your statements on that guns do not protect homes? Owning a gun has an excellent chance of preventing a crime against the gun owner.

Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed

It would be impractical – not to say unethical – to randomly assign volunteers to carry a gun or not and see what happens. So Charles Branas's team at the University of Pennsylvania analysed 677 shootings over two-and-a-half years to discover whether victims were carrying at the time, and compared them to other Philly residents of similar age, sex and ethnicity. The team also accounted for other potentially confounding differences, such as the socioeconomic status of their neighbourhood.

Is a study which samples a group of 677 shootings and fails to distinguish which of the sample population are in a gang or in the drug trade good enough empirical evidence to conclude that "carrying a gun increases the risk of getting shot or killed" in the United States?


I wonder how many shootings in that study involved illegal business activities. If they lumped those cases in there, and since most Americans aren't drug dealers or gang members, then this study is a good step closer to being labeled "rubbish."

[Symmetry]

Gentlemen, we are at an impasse. I have presented articles and evidence. They have been labelled rubbish, or worse, British. So I am at a loss as to why gun crime is so high in the US compared to similar countries, even those with similar levels of gun onwership if it is not American culture at play.

I appreciate that a lot of people, Saxi, Scotty, don't like an outsider talking about this.

[saxitoxin]

Gentlemen, we are at an impasse. I have presented articles and evidence. They have been labelled rubbish, or worse, British. So I am at a loss as to why gun crime is so high in the US compared to similar countries, even those with similar levels of gun onwership if it is not American culture at play.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=152870#p3344527

Okay, thread's done. We all agree with Sym. The next President of the U.S. should be Li'l JoJo, Asst. Manager of the Milton-Keynes Chavs 'R Us store; the U.S. needs to be annexed by the Isle of Mann; the Texas legislature should be force-fed Pork Pie and Yorkshire Pudding and Harry and Wil should run a train on Michelle Obama.

Now that we've sorted that out, what's everyone's FAV candy? Mine's RITTER SPORT MARZIPAN!

[Symmetry]

Gentlemen, we are at an impasse. I have presented articles and evidence. They have been labelled rubbish, or worse, British. So I am at a loss as to why gun crime is so high in the US compared to similar countries, even those with similar levels of gun onwership if it is not American culture at play.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=152870#p3344527

Okay, thread's done. We all agree with Sym. The next President of the U.S. should be Li'l JoJo, Asst. Manager of the Milton-Keynes Chavs 'R Us store; the U.S. needs to be annexed by the Isle of Mann; the Texas legislature should be force-fed Pork Pie and Yorkshire Pudding and Harry and Wil should run a train on Michelle Obama.

Now that we've sorted that out, what's everyone's FAV candy? Mine's RITTER SPORT MARZIPAN!

[img]http://www.deli-aleman.com/Deli/103osc/images/ritter%20marzipan.jpg/img]

What the hell? You sound like an American gun owner being asked about American gun culture.

[BigBallinStalin]

So I am at a loss as to why gun crime is so high in the US compared to similar countries, even those with similar levels of gun onwership if it is not American culture at play.

I appreciate that a lot of people, Saxi, Scotty, don't like an outsider talking about this.

Let's think of factors that may explain why:

(1) Price: I could very likely get a revolver for $25 in the US--maybe $50. (It'll be shitty, but it'll probably shoot.) How much do they go for in the UK black market? I bet you it's much, much more.

(2) Production:
US' production of total illegal drugs vastly outnumbers the capacity of the UK or Japan, and policing this area is significantly less dense than other developed countries.

(3)
Since businesses in the illegal drug trade cannot rely on the courts to adjudicate disputes, the resort to violence is unavoidable.

(4) Police Incentives:
They get reward to taking people's drugs--> higher budget. Sounds great, but it also means that if the crime is totally eradicated, there goes the money...

There's more too, but I'm done typing!


Saxi: that candy is disgusting.

[saxitoxin]

Gentlemen, we are at an impasse. I have presented articles and evidence. They have been labelled rubbish, or worse, British. So I am at a loss as to why gun crime is so high in the US compared to similar countries, even those with similar levels of gun onwership if it is not American culture at play.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=152870#p3344527

Okay, thread's done. We all agree with Sym. The next President of the U.S. should be Li'l JoJo, Asst. Manager of the Milton-Keynes Chavs 'R Us store; the U.S. needs to be annexed by the Isle of Mann; the Texas legislature should be force-fed Pork Pie and Yorkshire Pudding and Harry and Wil should run a train on Michelle Obama.

Now that we've sorted that out, what's everyone's FAV candy? Mine's RITTER SPORT MARZIPAN!

[img]http://www.deli-aleman.com/Deli/103osc/images/ritter%20marzipan.jpg/img]

What the hell? You sound like an American gun owner being asked about American gun culture.

EXCUSE ME. I am the proud owner of several large-calibre field mortars, three tripod-mounted/squad-serviced machine guns, and even a non-functioning Neutron Bomb (I'm 90%* sure it's non-functioning, though I haven't had a chance to test it out yet. Still waiting on permitting from the Santa Barbara County Fire Marshal. Red tape. ). However, I am not a U.S.A. citizen.

* 45%

Saxi: that candy is disgusting.

you're disgusting

[Phatscotty]

Sorry. I just flat out disagree. What do you base your statements on that guns do not protect homes? Owning a gun has an excellent chance of preventing a crime against the gun owner.

Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed

Despite the US having the highest rate of firearms-related homicide in the industrialised world, the relationship between gun culture and violence is poorly understood. A recent study found that treating violence like an infectious disease led to a dramatic fall in shootings and killings.

Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

So yeah- I would say that owning a gun isn't exactly the best choice for keeping you safe.

What do you think is the best choice for keeping safe?

I'm looking back at all the shootings that you referred to in the OP, and I gotta wonder how many innocent shooting victims died with an holstered gun on their side?