Greek Government Already Showing Cracks

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Re: Communist Backlash+RIP 2 Party System in Apr. Greek Elec

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:48 pm

GreecePwns wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Whether or not Greece is spending a lot, we would have had surpluses. If my government were to spend 2 euros and take in 2.5, they'd run a surplus too.

Systematic tax evasion is like money found on the floor. If people can evade 40 percent of their taxes knowing they will not get audited or punished in any way, whether they are at 42 percent of their income or 24 percent, they will evade them. Saying otherwise is indeed naive and ignores the basis of economic incentives.

This has nothing to do with Greece's level of spending, because no government budgets for a surplus of 10% of GDP to account for rampant tax evasion.


I just want to put it like this. Cut spending, and the demand for "more revenues" will not exist. You can't spend more than you have, it only seems like you can for a little while. I'm sure it was fun, but now Greece has to pay the piper.

Sorry, but Greece is getting what they deserve, and I'm sure America is going to get what it deserves in an extremely similar fashion. The only way out of this was for Greece to cut spending/the need for more revenues a few years ago, and that didn't happen.

This is the #1 reason why I am and have been so fucking hardcore about cutting America's spending 3-5 years before we get in over our heads. That's why it's Ron Paul, now or never.

We need to cut 1 trillion dollars out of our budget NEXT YEAR! If you think that's bad, it will be far worse if we wait until we can't do anything about it, and have OTHER countries tell us what to do and how to live. Whoever owns our debt will be the one making the rules, and we can kiss freedom or anything remotely close to it goodbye.

USA has already been downgraded once....we are about to be downgraded again. There are no second chances, and bailouts just prolong reality a little bit longer and make the debt even bigger.

It's now or never.
Okay.



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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby GreecePwns on Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:07 am

Everyone and their mother seems to want to lead their own party in Greece, leading to there now being 12 in Parliament and 3 more pushing to enter in the next election. The two most recent opinion polls averaged together give us this Parliament.

Please look at the OP for each party's description.

New Democracy 117
Democratic Left 36
SYRIZA 34
PASOK 34
KKE 33
Independent Greeks 18
LAOS 11
Greens 8
Golden Dawn 8

Possible coalitions: Absolutely none. The only one I see even remotely possible is ND + PASOK, which is exactly 151 seats as of today. I don't expect even this possibility to be available in the next opinion poll.
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:32 pm

Golden Dawn with 8?

Speaking of... how do Greeks get a neo-Nazi party? Isn't that an oxymoron? Is it truly neo-Nazi or is it just facist and racist?
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby GreecePwns on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:55 pm

"Only Aryans in blood and Greeks in descent can be candidate members of Golden Dawn".
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:46 pm

GreecePwns wrote:"Only Aryans in blood and Greeks in descent can be candidate members of Golden Dawn".


Ah... so it's Aryans and native Greeks. That makes tons of sense.

"Blonde hair? Blue eyes? Pale white complexion? 6'4", 210? You're in."

"Black hair? Brown eyes? Dark complexion? 5'4", 210? You're in."

"Just don't intermarry."
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:20 pm

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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby GreecePwns on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:42 am

Why are the boulevards of Paris lined with trees?
Because the Germans prefer to march in the shade.
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:54 am

Isn't this a good thing? Having 12 parties? At least the government can't make any decisions. If the legal systems are robust enough, enable common law and let Greeks sort it out themselves.

I'm sure political authority at the provincial or county level would be less fractious than at the national government level, so why not let government's effective authority end at the subnational level?
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:19 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Isn't this a good thing? Having 12 parties? At least the government can't make any decisions. If the legal systems are robust enough, enable common law and let Greeks sort it out themselves.


I don't think the Greeks have the common law ... TGD? Since their courts can't "discover" laws they have to rely on a legislature to pass them?
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby GreecePwns on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:15 pm

We do not have common law. BBS, in these situations what usually happens is minority government is formed, lasts maybe a couple of months, and election after election is held until something changes. Just look at Canada and the UK, where eventually both conservative parties were essentially saying, "This country needs a majority, and since we're leading in the polls, we deserve it." And it worked.

-PASOK has elected a "new" leader for their party, Evangelos Venizelos. Same as the old boss. In the US you have the Kennedys and the Bushes, we have Venizelos, Papandreou and Karamanlis. They all take their turns in party leadership.

-SYRIZA leader is calling for a dialogue which would possibly lead to a coalition between Democratic Left, SYRIZA and KKE. KKE refuses to talk to the other left parties as always, and Democratic Left just broke away from SYRIZA. A 3 party coalition would get 153 seats according to the estimation in the OP, while a SYRIZA-Dim.Ar. cooperation would get 116 seats. In both, ND would be reduced to 67 seats.
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby Fruitcake on Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:13 pm

Who said Eurosceptics did not have elegant counter-arguments?

Blackadder & Baldrick's take on the Euro

Baldrick: "What I want to know sir, is before there was a Euro there were lots of different types of money that different people used. And now there's only one type of money that the foreign people use. And what I want to know is, how did we get from one state of affairs to the other state of affairs"

Blackadder: "Baldrick. Do you mean, how did the Euro start?"

Baldrick: "Yes sir"

Blackadder: "Well, you see Baldrick, back in the 1980's there were many different countries all running their own finances and using different types of money. On one side you had the major economies of France, Belgium, Holland and Germany, and on the other, the weaker nations of Spain, Greece, Ireland, Italy and Portugal. They got together and decided that it would be much easier for everyone if they could all use the same money, have one Central Bank,and belong to one large club where everyone would be happy. This meant that there could never be a situation whereby financial meltdown would lead to social unrest, wars and crises".

Baldrick: "But this is sort of a crisis, isn't it sir".

Blackadder: "That's right Baldrick. You see, there was only one slight flaw with the plan".

Baldrick: "What was that then sir?"

Blackadder: "It was bollocks".

(and if you are wondering why I have posted this here....it is because this is at the root of this whole situation...unfortunately)
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby Fruitcake on Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:55 pm

Yesterday, and to a lesser extent today (Friday’s tend to slacken on the bull/bear in a china shop analogy) was a pretty negative day on the markets. The origins of this were the same kind of headlines we have got used to over the past 2 years. 5 months of contraction in the Chinese manufacturing sector was reported, and this news was matched yesterday with a slide in both German and the European-wide manufacturing PMI which suggested that January’s positive was nothing more than a temporary aberration and a multi-quarter recession in the Euro zone is more than likely.

In the past there has been much spoken about a 2 speed Europe (which is why the French have been cuddling up to the Germans as they wanted to be in the fast lane). With Germany seeming to be slipping inexorably into the mire I am not so sure this 2 speed thingy is what is going to happen...not under the Euro mechanism anyway.

Bond yields are the flavour of the month again. Spanish yields are creeping higher again as the market realises the austerity targets just ain’t going to be hit, and the deficit reduction programs are proving near impossible to fulfil. My instincts tell me that Spain is the country most likely to get into trouble sooner rather than later. As for poor Greece....well no one really believed their last visit with their hands out would be the last...did they? Stories are running around the markets that they will miss their targets by a country mile (or would that be Kilometre Mein Herr). Unfortunately there still seems to be some severe lacking in fiscal compliance in that country as to where the moolah is disappearing to. Jokes abound comparing Greek handouts to Nigerian Oil revenues...neither really appear on the balance sheets of the country as the rapacious ruling classes fill their pockets.

I shall be fascinated to watch if Spain really starts sliding. This is not a country the size of Greece but a meal even the Germans could not manage to swallow. It was amusing to watch them give the Churchill salute to Merkel and her gang recently...yep, this one really is too big to bully.

Money flows are showing some interesting patterns, with funds easing out of the Euro Zone into far eastern strong currencies and, as always, the Dollar. Unfortunately Sterling, which has been something of a home for quite a lot of moolah recently has topped out (especially after the fat boy's budget) and I sense something of a slide about to occur.

Summer is on its way in Europe and the Politicians are nervous, and rightly so, they brought this whole shambolic state of affairs to where it is today. The people are getting very restless and summertime, with warm nights and long days, is perfect for aggressive uprisings.
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:02 pm

Summer is on its way in Europe and the Politicians are nervous, and rightly so, they brought this whole shambolic state of affairs to where it is today. The people are getting very restless and summertime, with warm nights and long days, is perfect for aggressive uprisings.


Good. Maybe they will hold their politicians accountable. After the revolution, they can reinstall another national government, whose politicians will play the same game as before, while the people respond likewise.
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby Fruitcake on Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:10 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Summer is on its way in Europe and the Politicians are nervous, and rightly so, they brought this whole shambolic state of affairs to where it is today. The people are getting very restless and summertime, with warm nights and long days, is perfect for aggressive uprisings.


Good. Maybe they will hold their politicians accountable. After the revolution, they can reinstall another national government, whose politicians will play the same game as before, while the people respond likewise.


It matters little. As far as I am concerned, we have just sat down after swigging a cocktail or two in the interval between acts of a Greek tragedy.

The fat lady has yet to sing but this means nothing to those realists in the Eurozone. The way they are bleating, Greece has been saved.

A little reality check, just so we all understand.

Banks owned most of the Greek debt and were coerced into saying yes whilst the minnow creditors have been bent over and royally given it in the derrier. A very unseemly way to conduct international finance.

The EU may have thrown a few more billion Euros at Greece to thank the pets they have in place there for losing their next election (which of course will ensure jobs at the top table for the inner circle) but the will of the markets will win, this is reality. They always do. Politicians will always think they can get the better of the markets, and they ALWAYS end up with egg, poached, scrambled or even fried all over their hawkish, self interested faces.

Want proof? Just look at the distressed junk yields (better known as Greek sovereign debt) at 20%+. This was after a surge to the dizzy heights of 40% last month, and having scaled down from there is now steadily rising once more.

Get the message loud and clear....Greece is bankrupt. It has defaulted. It will need another bail out in next 6 months. And it will leave the Euro. Then the trouble will really start.
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:03 pm

We see this happen in the real world. You have too much discretion in the hands of central bankers, the politicians, and, of course, their friends in high places.

The bailout was for "stabilizing" the Euro, but I'd think at least you and me knew that this wasn't going to end well (and we're right). Is it mostly from corrupt central planners, or are they just that incompetent?

Do you think most people are just oblivious to this? When people hear the words "market failure", they feel justified that their governments are "doing something" to (haha) "correct" it.

What a sad, ignorant, incompetent aspect of humanity.
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby GreecePwns on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:49 am

The newest opinion poll by VPRC has support for the two major parties down to a new-record 35 percent. LAOS may be going from part of government to out of parliament altogether. Panos Kammenos' Independent Greeks is surging, taking away votes from the rightmost wing of New Democracy and LAOS with its stringent defense of national sovereignty, even bringing up the "Germany owes us war reparations" position, and calling for the removal of immunity for parliament (which should be a position of all parties, honestly). The change in leadership for PASOK proved to be of little help, with their improvement in the polls falling within the margin of error. The Greens are also looking at a place outside of parliament for the first time in months. More about the party here.

The new poll gives us this Parliament:

New Democracy 114
PASOK 35
KKE 35
SYRIZA 34
Democratic Left 33
Independent Greeks 31
Golden Dawn 10
LAOS 8

The ND-PASOK coalition government possibility is now dead, as well as any other 2-party coalition government. There are no realistic scenarios for a 3-party coalition government either. And the problem gets even more difficult when you factor in the Greens in parliament:

New Democracy 111
PASOK 34
KKE 34
SYRIZA 33
Democratic Left 31
Independent Greeks 31
Golden Dawn 10
LAOS 8
Greens 8

We must also consider the fact that this poll was conducted before the official formation of Social Contract, a prominent PASOK splinter group. This group has a considerable chance to enter Parliament as well.
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby Fruitcake on Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:59 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:We see this happen in the real world. You have too much discretion in the hands of central bankers, the politicians, and, of course, their friends in high places.

The bailout was for "stabilizing" the Euro, but I'd think at least you and me knew that this wasn't going to end well (and we're right). Is it mostly from corrupt central planners, or are they just that incompetent?

Do you think most people are just oblivious to this? When people hear the words "market failure", they feel justified that their governments are "doing something" to (haha) "correct" it.

What a sad, ignorant, incompetent aspect of humanity.


The planners are both corrupt and incompetent. However, those two failings often walk arm in arm as they step over the precipice.

As for the people? I have always thought the cleverest myth ever visited upon the masses was to get them thinking they actually knew what was happening. Well the chickens of this age of mediocrity are well and truly coming home to roost. I have been hoping the scales would fall from the eyes of the people for a few years now (you need only look for some of my old posts when the banking disaster struck 3 years ago) and each time these strokes are pulled by the so called leaders they edge the whole situation closer to all out anarchy. The people are starting to wake up. The cloud cuckoo land the Politicians have dragged the rest into over the last 15 - 20 years is coming to an end...good! Time to wake up and smell the caffeine rich scent of reality.

I have no idea what's going to happen next in terms of social impact but I damned well know what I would like to see, and how ironic should this actually start in Greece.
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:41 am

*In an effort to save face, LAOS has removed itself from the coalition government of ECB plant PM Lucas Papademos. Only PASOK and ND remain in support of the prime minister, who was only put in power in order to pass the austerity memorandum.

*Center-right ND has ramped up its rhetoric regarding illegal immigration, with party leader Antonis Samaras declaring that our cities "have been taken by illegal migrants...we will take our cities back" ND is only joined by Golden Dawn in this fight against illegal immigrants.

*SYRIZA is poised to make another surge in the polls, as two former PASOK MPs, the Unitary Movement party, prominent leftist Young Militants group, and two other "green left" groups have joined the coalition, which is now renamed SYRIZA-Unified Social Front. In a nationally-televised speech, leader Alex Tsipras outlined the groups platform:

Athens News wrote:The main points in this, as presented by Tsipras, were the reversal of the memorandum and the loan agreements, a suspension of payments for as long as was necessary for the recovery of the economy and then a selective default and the payment of a portion of Greece's debt with conditions and terms to promote growth.

Other key points were a redistribution of wealth accompanied by social and economic justice, real growth with respect for the environment that was beneficial for society and the economic and productive restructuring of the country.

In addition mention was made of a social protection 'shield', the defence of public goods, a multidimensional, independent foreign policy with active policies for peace, friendship and cooperation as well as a departure from NATO and the removal of NATO bases from Greece.

Tsipras underlined that the crisis now being experienced by Greece was the result of the political choices of the forces ruling the country for decades, that were now "forming partnerships in order to finish the job off" and had signed an agreement to "sell off and socially dismantle" Greece.

He accused foreign and especially European Union officials of attacking Syriza and interfering with the election process in Greece, fearing that the two-party system was under threat, and he dismissed a recent focus on unregistered migration issues as an attempt by the mainstream parties to create a diversion in the run-up to elections.

Asked about the possibility of cooperation after the elections with the Fotis Kouvelis' Democratic Left or former Pasok minister Louka Katseli's Social Pact parties, Tsipras said that Syriza "proposed policy convergences" but that did not look at things from the same angle as the Democratic Left or Social Pact.


With the possible death of PASOK and ND coalition government, the issues are increasingly becoming a fight between the big two vs. everyone else. Experts are predicting their combined votes for coalition government must exceed 38%.
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:06 am

A new opinion poll released 3/31 gave PASOK a bump up due to their recent leadership change, mostly at the expense of the closest party ideologically, Democratic Left. Also, the right-wing LAOS is hemorrhaging votes to neo-Nazis Golden Dawn, who saw their highest results with 5% of the vote. Whether or not these are both lasting bump is to be known. LAOS is not in parliament in this poll, replaced by the Greens. The newest poll produces this parliament:

New Democracy 112
PASOK 43 (Big 2 combined: 155)
SYRIZA 34
KKE 33
Democratic Left 33
Independent Greeks 23
Golden Dawn 14
Greens 8

Even more interesting is a new feature, in which Public Issue gives % odds to possible resulting governments:

Leftist coalition government: 21%
PASOK-ND coalition 12%
ND government: 9%
Other party with majority: 4%
Rainbow coalition government including both PASOK-ND: 3%
PASOK government: 3%
Right coalition government: 3%
Rainbow coalition without PASOK and ND: 2%
KKE government: 1%
SYRIZA government: 1%
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Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:19 pm

GreecePwns wrote:The newest opinion poll by VPRC has support for the two major parties down to a new-record 35 percent. LAOS may be going from part of government to out of parliament altogether. Panos Kammenos' Independent Greeks is surging, taking away votes from the rightmost wing of New Democracy and LAOS with its stringent defense of national sovereignty, even bringing up the "Germany owes us war reparations" position, and calling for the removal of immunity for parliament (which should be a position of all parties, honestly). The change in leadership for PASOK proved to be of little help, with their improvement in the polls falling within the margin of error. The Greens are also looking at a place outside of parliament for the first time in months. More about the party here.


Wait, what exactly are the politicians immune from ?
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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:17 pm

To quote wiki:

Members of Parliament are immune from criminal prosecution, arrest or detention while in office. They are also immune from having to provide any information to any authority regarding their legislative functions and deliberations. They are not immune from civil suits. Alleged crimes committed in the member's official capacity (e.g. embezzlement of public monies) may be adjudicated only after Parliament impeaches the member. Government ministers who are not members of Parliament are subject to the same procedure. The impeachment trial is held by an ad hoc Special Court. Alleged crimes committed in the member's personal capacity (e.g. homicide) may be adjudicated only after Parliament votes to have the member's immunity suspended, at the request of a prosecuting attorney and only in relation to the particular alleged crime. In such cases, the case is adjudicated by a regular court. The Parliament's permission is not necessary if a member is "caught in the act" of committing a crime (e.g. murder).
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Re: Greek Election 4/29 or 5/6, Big 2 Coalition On Life Supp

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:39 pm

Sounds like a sweet gig. Where do I sign up to become a Greek politician?
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Re: Greek Election 4/29 or 5/6, Big 2 Coalition On Life Supp

Postby GreecePwns on Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:30 pm

This morning, a 77-year old man committed suicide in Syntagma Square in central Athens, and his suicide note can be a catalyst for further political turmoil.

State media has reported that Dimitris Christoulas, the man who took his own life using a pistol on Syntagma Square, in central Athens, on Wednesday morning, left a suicide note.
"The Tsolakoglou government has annihilated all traces for my survival, which was based on a very dignified pension that I alone paid for 35 years with no help from the state. And since my advanced age does not allow me a way of dynamically reacting (although if a fellow Greek were to grab a Kalashnikov, I would be right behind him), I see no other solution than this dignified end to my life, so I don’t find myself fishing through garbage cans for my sustenance. I believe that young people with no future, will one day take up arms and hang the traitors of this country at Syntagma square, just like the Italians did to Mussolini in 1945" the note said.
Georgios Tsolakoglou was the first collaborationist prime minister during Germany's occupation of Greece during the Second World War. The reference has been widely interpreted as a comparison between the wartime collaborationist government and the current government of Lucas Papademos.
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Re: Greek Election 4/29 or 5/6; Suicide of 77yo Man Shakes i

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:20 pm

Metron Analysis released a poll today, the first of April and the last before election season officially starts. The election date will be announced Wednesday, and most think it will be May 6th. Here are some changes in this poll and the news surrounding them:

- New Democracy continues to decline, now down to a new low of 20.8%. After ND party chief Antonis Samaras gave a prominent speech attacking PASOK and PASOK fighting back, many voters say they see this as more of the same. On top of that Samaras is ruling out a grand coalition with PASOK. Whether or not this is just politics remains to be seen.
- PASOK's rebounding is mostly at the expense of DIMAR, who have failed to differentiate themselves enough from PASOK. They are down to 9 percent, whereas for the past month they were somewhere in the 12-14 range.
- Golden Dawn continues to rise, now to 5.5%, on the back of the illegal immigrant detention centre issue
- In this poll, both LAOS and the Greens are in parliament, with the Greens hitting a year to date high of 4.6%
- ND defectors Independent Greeks continue to take away votes from their former party, at 10.6%
- The ND+PASOK coalition possibility is DOA in this poll, even falling outside 95% certainty range.

The poll produces the following Parliament:
New Democracy 107
PASOK 41
SYRIZA-Unitary Social Front 32
KKE 29
Independent Greeks 29
Democratic Left 25
Golden Dawn 15
Greens 13
LAOS 9

Looks like another election in winter, guys.
Last edited by GreecePwns on Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Greek Election 4/29 or 5/6; Suicide of 77yo Man Shakes i

Postby Baron Von PWN on Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:57 pm

What happens if no party forms a Majority? Or if no coalition is possible? Do you then get a minority parliament that governs issue by issue?
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