French Tax Hike: Taxpayer Equality Fail

[Symmetry]

Damn, now all Gerard Dépardieu's factories will have to close.

Oh, wait, he's just an actor.

[Baron Von PWN]

populism. French people are a bunch of jealous fucks who hate to see their neighbour do well. If someone makes good money in france, there is always going to be a bunch of haters to say that it isn't money well deserved compared to a blue collar and blablabla.
People here forget how well you live being poor, with the best free health care service in the world and wellfare for every god damn thing. But of course it's never enough, and unions in public services make 2/3 strikes a year asking for impossible things because they are unable to realize what adds up or not.

What frightens me most is to lose competitivity and that foreign companies will have more and more problems investing in france because of the labor cost; the difficulties we will have in with exportations ect.
Right now there is a big thing here because they are closing some big steal foundries when last year the Indian owner (Arcelor Mittal) promised they would keep it open. How can a European country be competitive now a days in this type of industries?

that was exactly the answer I was hoping you would give. That it makes voters "feel better", but does not actually accomplish anything, and actually does damage long term.

Same reason you have buy american legislation, and a war on drugs. These laws don't help anything but they are popular among politicaly active groups, so they happen.

[Phatscotty]

populism. French people are a bunch of jealous fucks who hate to see their neighbour do well. If someone makes good money in france, there is always going to be a bunch of haters to say that it isn't money well deserved compared to a blue collar and blablabla.
People here forget how well you live being poor, with the best free health care service in the world and wellfare for every god damn thing. But of course it's never enough, and unions in public services make 2/3 strikes a year asking for impossible things because they are unable to realize what adds up or not.

What frightens me most is to lose competitivity and that foreign companies will have more and more problems investing in france because of the labor cost; the difficulties we will have in with exportations ect.
Right now there is a big thing here because they are closing some big steal foundries when last year the Indian owner (Arcelor Mittal) promised they would keep it open. How can a European country be competitive now a days in this type of industries?

that was exactly the answer I was hoping you would give. That it makes voters "feel better", but does not actually accomplish anything, and actually does damage long term.

Same reason you have buy american legislation, and a war on drugs. These laws don't help anything but they are popular among politicaly active groups, so they happen.

Good point, but raising taxes to 75% is a serious issue and can really break/(make?) and economy.

[betiko]

I've just read this would only affect 1500 people and that it would bring on average 140 000 euros per contributer so only 210M euros. So yeah, total symbolic bullshit. What you got to understand is that lots of people say that socialists/UMP in power won't make much difference, so Hollande is just doing this to look socialist as that is what he got elected for.
When sarkozy was in power, he said that with the debt and all we had no other choice than raising the VAT. All the socialists raised against it because it would affect the whole population. Now that Hollande is in power, first thing he did was raising the VAT... at the level Sarkozy said he would. So yeah, pretty ironic.

[PLAYER57832]

So you think a 75% tax in a small country that is almost not independent economically anyway is somehow evidence against raising the US tax rate to 25%, as it was during some of the most prosperous times in the US?

[betiko]

So you think a 75% tax in a small country that is almost not independent economically anyway is somehow evidence against raising the US tax rate to 25%, as it was during some of the most prosperous times in the US?

Sorry but if you claim france is not economically independent you kind of imply here that the US is. How is that? In a global economy is there any country truely independent? It doesn't really seems like the US has the upper hand over China for example.
No matter how small you think france is, it's still the 5th economy in the world (in front of the UK, Brazil, Italy, Russia, India, Canada in this order). 6 times smaller than the american economy and nearly 5 times less populated, but it's part of the G8 and is the most influencial country after Germany in the European Union, which is much bigger than the US populationwise and economically.

[PLAYER57832]

So you think a 75% tax in a small country that is almost not independent economically anyway is somehow evidence against raising the US tax rate to 25%, as it was during some of the most prosperous times in the US?

Sorry but if you claim france is not economically independent you kind of imply here that the US is. How is that? In a global economy is there any country truely independent? It doesn't really seems like the US has the upper hand over China for example.
No matter how small you think france is, it's still the 5th economy in the world (in front of the UK, Brazil, Italy, Russia, India, Canada in this order). 6 times smaller than the american economy and nearly 5 times less populated, but it's part of the G8 and is the most influencial country after Germany in the European Union, which is much bigger than the US populationwise and economically.

Take what I said in context, please. It was not a crticism of France, just saying that the OP presented data in a way that does not directly apply to the US. The fact that France is so much smaller than the US, and is part of the European union matters. Sure, all countries are tied, but what I said still applies. Comparing a 75% tax rate in a country with many close neighbors and a necessarily smaller economy to what is being proposed in the US is just not valid.

[Night Strike]

So you think a 75% tax in a small country that is almost not independent economically anyway is somehow evidence against raising the US tax rate to 25%, as it was during some of the most prosperous times in the US?

Do you even know what the tax rates are in the US? The current top tax rate is 35% and Obama wants it raised to 39.6%. And that's just federal income taxes. It would be great for this country is the top federal income tax rate was only 25%.

[betiko]

So you think a 75% tax in a small country that is almost not independent economically anyway is somehow evidence against raising the US tax rate to 25%, as it was during some of the most prosperous times in the US?

Do you even know what the tax rates are in the US? The current top tax rate is 35% and Obama wants it raised to 39.6%. And that's just federal income taxes. It would be great for this country is the top federal income tax rate was only 25%.

so basically what would happen, rich people would cheat more the government and would put more money in fiscal paradises. Other than this, I don't see the problem. Take bill gates or warren buffet, they are both using most of their fortune to help others. Is that bad? are they naughty communists? Are people going to die if their yacht is 10% smaller? people die in america because they can't afford proper health care. 75% tax is unfair in my opinion though, I think that you should "spend" 50% of your fortune at the very most for taxes if you are wealthy enough (basically you would work 3 month for yourself 9 month for the government, seriously?) But 35% when you can afford it is not a big deal.

[Night Strike]

So you think a 75% tax in a small country that is almost not independent economically anyway is somehow evidence against raising the US tax rate to 25%, as it was during some of the most prosperous times in the US?

Do you even know what the tax rates are in the US? The current top tax rate is 35% and Obama wants it raised to 39.6%. And that's just federal income taxes. It would be great for this country is the top federal income tax rate was only 25%.

so basically what would happen, rich people would cheat more the government and would put more money in fiscal paradises. Other than this, I don't see the problem. Take bill gates or warren buffet, they are both using most of their fortune to help others. Is that bad? are they naughty communists? Are people going to die if their yacht is 10% smaller? people die in america because they can't afford proper health care. 75% tax is unfair in my opinion though, I think that you should "spend" 50% of your fortune at the very most for taxes if you are wealthy enough (basically you would work 3 month for yourself 9 month for the government, seriously?) But 35% when you can afford it is not a big deal.

The problem is that in the US, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet (the latter of which pays virtually no income taxes anyway because he earns capital gains) are treated the exact same as small business owners in the tax code as they all may make over $250,000 in income. Even if a small business owner (sole proprietorship) only takes a salary of $50,000; if his business makes over $200,000 for that year, he must pay taxes as if that was also his personal income. Even if every penny of that business income is designed to stay in the business for future growth and expansion (or even saving for a down year). That's why all these calls for raising taxes on "the rich" are completely false. The Democrats go out and trumpet the uber-rich who want to pay more to the government (yet don't write checks on their own to the government), yet they actually set the rates at much lower income levels that punish small business owners who have a successful business.

[betiko]

You are talking about buisnesses here, which are identities of their own. The fact of owning 100% of a business doesn't mean the profits are directly linked to yourself. Company taxes are way lower in the US and don't provide good coverage for government pensions ect as in other countries with higher company taxes. In the US you can't rely on the pension you get once you're retired. If you own a business, it wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't for your employees.
I've been working in the UK for 2 years and I was pretty happy of the low taxes I had to pay compared to what I got in france, I was earning probably 15%-20% more than what I would earn in france for the same salary. At some point I had a snowboarding accident and broke my back while I was under british contract. There is a health coverage there but it's propper shit compared to the french one. I had to pay for the hellicopter, the ambullance the hospital stay, the back reeducation and a whole lot of crap that would've been covered if I were still a french tax payer. Also, while I was 1month in the hospital I didn't get my salary, which I would have perceived in the french system. You never know what can happen to you, lots of good people became homeless from one day to the next during the credit crunch in the US. Solidarity is not a bad thing.
On a French level I would be center-right, but that would be democrat on a US level, therefore left... I don't approve at all what the socialists do here, but I don't like the ideas of the plain right in france or the republicans in the US.

[PLAYER57832]

So you think a 75% tax in a small country that is almost not independent economically anyway is somehow evidence against raising the US tax rate to 25%, as it was during some of the most prosperous times in the US?

Do you even know what the tax rates are in the US? The current top tax rate is 35% and Obama wants it raised to 39.6%. And that's just federal income taxes. It would be great for this country is the top federal income tax rate was only 25%.

Try again.... One big problem is that so-called investment income is taxed at a much lower rate. Also, almost no one pays the top rate because of all the deductions.

[SvenTveskägg]

So you think a 75% tax in a small country that is almost not independent economically anyway is somehow evidence against raising the US tax rate to 25%, as it was during some of the most prosperous times in the US?

Do you even know what the tax rates are in the US? The current top tax rate is 35% and Obama wants it raised to 39.6%. And that's just federal income taxes. It would be great for this country is the top federal income tax rate was only 25%.

so basically what would happen, rich people would cheat more the government and would put more money in fiscal paradises. Other than this, I don't see the problem. Take bill gates or warren buffet, they are both using most of their fortune to help others. Is that bad? are they naughty communists? Are people going to die if their yacht is 10% smaller? people die in america because they can't afford proper health care. 75% tax is unfair in my opinion though, I think that you should "spend" 50% of your fortune at the very most for taxes if you are wealthy enough (basically you would work 3 month for yourself 9 month for the government, seriously?) But 35% when you can afford it is not a big deal.

About the "work 3 month for yourself 9 month for the government"; good way to put it it sounds pretty insane. But how much of "he employers work is done by him and how much is done by the employees? You could probably subtract a bit there.
And then it is: how manny months does the employee work for himself and how manny for the company? And don't forget that the employer also works 3-4 months for the government. It adds up to quite a bit...

[Night Strike]

So you think a 75% tax in a small country that is almost not independent economically anyway is somehow evidence against raising the US tax rate to 25%, as it was during some of the most prosperous times in the US?

Do you even know what the tax rates are in the US? The current top tax rate is 35% and Obama wants it raised to 39.6%. And that's just federal income taxes. It would be great for this country is the top federal income tax rate was only 25%.

Try again.... One big problem is that so-called investment income is taxed at a much lower rate. Also, almost no one pays the top rate because of all the deductions.

And yet we were talking about income taxes, not investment income. And of course, investment taxes should be increased because then fewer people would invest, which would just harm businesses. And of course, democrats don't even want to consider raising revenue via fewer deductions because the only "fair thing" to do is to raise rates.

[betiko]

About the "work 3 month for yourself 9 month for the government"; good way to put it it sounds pretty insane. But how much of "he employers work is done by him and how much is done by the employees? You could probably subtract a bit there.
And then it is: how manny months does the employee work for himself and how manny for the company? And don't forget that the employer also works 3-4 months for the government. It adds up to quite a bit...

Well no, an employee works for himself when he works for his company, it's an income not a cost for him. And a good manager is someone who knows hows to delegate to people, it's a big part of his job. You are not doing your boss's job when he gives you assignments, it's just what you are paid for.

[SvenTveskägg]

Well no, an employee works for himself when he works for his company, it's an income not a cost for him. And a good manager is someone who knows hows to delegate to people, it's a big part of his job. You are not doing your boss's job when he gives you assignments, it's just what you are paid for.

I'd say it's diffrent names but the same effect. If you do a job for a company you don't get paid what that service is worth (otherwise the company would'nt make money). The company keeps a part of your income, witch is basicly the same thing as paying a "tax" to the company owner.
I can't really defend the coment about the employees doing part of there employers work though... You got me on that one :p

Edit: You know it's a ironic; we all think that we should get as much fruit from our labour as possible (minus some for those who can't work), yet we are in disagreement.

[maxfaraday]

Why the f*ck is this thread still active?

This tax is nothing but a smoke screen, he only used that to get elected, so people would care less about the real problems of our economy/society.
And since people are stupid and can't see the big picture he was elected Président de la République.
A few rich people leaving the country won't change anything about anything.

[Phatscotty]

show

Gérard Depardieu to return French passport and puts £40m Parisian mansion on the market in protest at huge tax hikes

Gérard Depardieu has declared that he will return his French passport and leave his homeland, in an exasperated letter where he fired back at the French government's criticism of his decision to move to Belgium.

The French actor whose eccentric personality has come to symbolise a certain, old fashioned form of Gallic love for good food and the pleasures in life, also known as a "bon vivant," said he is finished with the country, in a letter published in the Journal du Dimanche.

It is addressed to Jean-Marc Ayrault, the French prime minister, who called Depardieu "pathetic" for wanting to move just over the French border to the wealthy Belgian town of Néchin, where he will evade the current Left-leaning government's tax hikes.

"I am handing over to you my passport and social security, which I have never used," he said. "We no longer have the same homeland, I am a true European, a citizen of the world, as my father always taught me to believe."

He concludes: "Despite my excesses, my appetite and love for life, I am a free being, Sir, and will remain polite."

Following news of his plans to relocate in Belgium, and sell his 19th century Paris mansion, public scorn – especially on the political Left – has magnified for the actor who has come out in support of former conservative President Nicolas Sarkozy.

A Socialist MP said Depardieu should be stripped of his nationality, and on Saturday President Francois Hollande said "everyone must behave ethically," after being questioned about Mr Depardieu's move.

Nonetheless Depardieu remains widely popular in France, despite making headlines for occasional drunken and lewd behaviour. The actor asserts he has always been an upstanding citizen, deserving "respect," and who has employed 80 people, always paid his taxes, and "never killed anybody." He said he paid 85 per cent of his income in taxes in 2012, and over 45 years, has paid 145 million Euros – or £118 million – in taxes.

Depardieu said his reasons for renouncing his citizenship are due in part to fundamental disagreements with the current Socialist-led government, which has introduced several new tax hikes, including a 75 per cent tax on millionaire earners.

"Unfortunately there's nothing left for me to do here, but I will continue to love the French, the public with whom I've shared so many emotions! I leave because you consider that success, creation, talent, difference, in fact, should be sanctioned," he writes.

Depardieu has recently asked for information about applying for a Belgian passport, and using Belgian health care.

He also didn't appreciate being "insulted" by Mr Ayrault.

"You said 'pathetic'? How pathetic," he wrote, adding: "I refuse the word 'pathetic.' Who are you to judge me this way, I ask you, Mr Ayrault, prime minister of Francois Hollande, I ask you, who are you?"

He said he has been "insulted" unlike other French nationals and major figures who have left France, many of whom did so to escape tax increases.

His letter provoked outrage from some Socialist leaders, but conservatives saw it as a warning sign France would lose its wealthy and talented classes if the government's policies don't change.

"We're losing the rich, like Gerard Depardieu, and the poor feel betrayed," said Rama Yade, a former Sarkozy minister, and vice president of the moderate conservative Radical Party, referring to workers at factories expected to close down. "France is the one getting weakened, and its future is being sold off cheaply," she said.

However the minister of culture, Aurelie Filippetti, joined her Socialist colleagues who criticised the actor's decision on Sunday. She said he was "deserting the field in the middle of a war against the [economic] crisis," and that "French citizenship is an honour, and includes rights and also duties, which include the ability to pay taxes."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... sport.html

[Symmetry]

His contribution to the French economy will be sorely missed.

[Phatscotty]

His contribution to the French economy will be sorely missed.

Him and the other...what is it...600 wealthy people, who have moved to Belgium alone?

[Symmetry]

His contribution to the French economy will be sorely missed.

Him and the other...what is it...600 wealthy people, who have moved to Belgium alone?

Are we not discussing Gerard now? Which other Frenchman fleeing France are you holding up as a paragon of French bravery in the face of adversity?

[Iliad]

What happened to all that talk of self-sacrifice that you so bravely shouted in the Unions shut down Hostess thread?

By your logic in that thread, this thread should be titled Depardieu shuts down France.

Oh wait, I forgot the most important rule in your reality, poor people=bad, rich people=good.

[x-raider]

Seriously, I can't reply seriously.

What's the problem? Hollande says he doesn't like the rich. Gets the rich to move out of his country. Seems like success to me.

...So does Gerard

Damn, now all Gerard Dépardieu's factories will have to close.

Oh, wait, he's just an actor.

If only France has passed slavery and banned all foreign travel first, and then sought to raise taxes to 75% on the rich.....

Almost got em!

Keep it cool...

[Phatscotty]

France warms to Gérard Depardieu, the heroic exile
François Hollande, the French prime minister, may come to regret insulting the actor who symbolises Gallic exuberance

Asterix and Obelix have deserted Gaul. Or at least the two actors who played them in three blockbuster movies have. With Gérard “Obelix” Depardieu’s much-trumpeted exile to Belgium last week, following Christian “Asterix” Clavier’s move to London in October, France has lost her best-known fictional heroes, undefeated by Julius Caesar’s legions, but vanquished by François Hollande’s punitive new 75 per cent top marginal income tax rate, recently hiked capital gains tax, and reinforced wealth tax.

The symbolism has not been lost on the French. When France’s richest man, Bernard Arnault, the CEO and main shareholder of the luxury behemoth LVMH, applied for Belgian citizenship last August, it was easy for Socialists to paint him as an unpatriotic, despicable fat cat. “Get lost, you rich b------” blasted a headline on the front page of Libération, the Left-wing daily, effectively capturing the national mood.

But Depardieu is a vastly different proposition from a wealthy tycoon and former asset-stripper whose children’s weddings warrant 10-page spreads in society magazines. When Jean-Marc Ayrault, France’s prime minister, contemptuously called him “a pathetic loser”, Depardieu shot back with an open letter published on Sunday. “I was born in 1948,” he wrote, “I started working aged 14, as a printer, as a warehouseman, then as an actor, and I’ve always paid my taxes.” Over 45 years, Depardieu said, he had paid 145 million euros in tax, and to this day employs 80 people. Last year he paid taxes amounting to 85 per cent of his income. “I am neither worthy of pity nor admirable, but I shall not be called 'pathetic’,” he concluded, saying that he was sending back his French passport.

For a few hours, the government spin doctors thought the French, whose deep mistrust of money is rooted in a dual heritage of Catholicism and unreconstructed Marxism, would join in the public shaming. It did not happen. An online poll conducted by the popular Le Parisien tabloid showed almost 70 per cent supporting the country’s wayward son and poster boy for glorious political incorrectness.

Depardieu has lit up on Jonathan Ross’s show (and growlingly ground his cigarette stub into the studio carpet after a heated exchange); has urinated in an overflowing plastic bottle on an Air France plane after being refused permission to use the loo; has kicked the fenders off an offending car which had crowded him in a Paris street; once peed (not on purpose) on the leg of a Deauville policeman who asked for an autograph in a car park; has punched countless paparazzi on three continents; and over the years has managed to alienate many fellow stars with the kind of blunt talk no luvvie would ever utter. “She has nothing, I can’t even comprehend how she made 50 movies,” he once said of Juliette Binoche.
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Depardieu is excessive in every way, but he’s never been a hypocrite: there have been no stints in rehab after one too many drunken brawls; no staged acts of contrition at any moment of his chaotic private life; no tabloid-monitored diets or fitness regimes. A working-class boy with no formal training but a miraculous gift for bringing to life the most complex nuances of almost every character he has played, he manages to make the classics as accessible as Asterix. He has made over 170 movies and given memorable stage performances – his Tartuffe, the protagonist of Molière’s eponymous play, ranks up there with Louis Jouvet’s historic 1950 performance, exposing the vulnerability and vertiginous loss of control of a devout hypocrite usually played for laughs. He makes his own wine from his own vineyards, owns two restaurants, has written cookbooks of hearty traditional French cuisine. He is, perhaps, a compendium of what the French most aspire to be, taken to epic heights.

He’s been an amnesiac Napoleonic colonel under the Bourbon kings (Le Colonel Chabert); the Provençal peasant ruined by the drought in Jean de Florette; Cyrano de Bergerac on stage and screen; Christopher Columbus for Ridley Scott; Reynaldo in Branagh’s Hamlet. He has worked with Bertolucci, Ang Lee (in Life of Pi), Godard, Resnais, Handke, Truffaut, Wajda, Weir; he’s been Jean Valjean and Rasputin. In short, he is a monument, and he is very difficult to hate.

I remember seeing him at a Cannes film festival party, more than 20 years ago, given in a villa on the hills by Premiere magazine when it was edited by the magnificent Michèle Halberstadt. It was raining violently, the music was blaring in every room of the house, and alone in the sodden garden, in the middle of a waterlogged flowerbed, drenched, his face to the starless sky, like an Easter Island statue, was Depardieu, howling at the cloud-veiled moon. Now that he is settling in an 800,000-euro Walloon house less than a mile from the French border, I can imagine him howling in just the same way at the Hollande crowd and assorted spin doctors. He won’t let them forget him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... exile.html

[Metsfanmax]

Deparwho?