An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

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While there is certainly proof that mutations do occur in nature; There is absolutely no real evidence to support the theory of evolution at this time (for over the past 150 years of "Dino-digging"). Including the sedimentary column.
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There probably is evidence to support this theory, yet scientist are at a loss to explain it appropriately.
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Scientist are great at making shit up when they have no evidence to prove something that is false to begin with.
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I believe in Santa. He's a real person that lives all the way deep at the north pole and brings me presents every year. The presents prove that he's real. I also leave him milk and cookies to snack on and while I don't ever see him, I just know with all my heart, that he is the one who eats all the cookies and milk. Or, I wish I had a dogasaur like Dino.
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Total votes : 69

Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:29 pm

Again you miss the real point Viceroy, any organisation seeking the truth doesn't start of from any preconceptions and look to make reality fit into whatever those are, they start off from a totally blank slate and whatever they find and can prove is the truth.

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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Catarah on Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:35 pm

okey, i'm feeling like giving this a try. warning! wall of text incoming:

what is evolution?

it took a long time before people realized that evolution might even be a thing, and it took way longer for most of the scientific world to agree with it. so instead of saying 'evolution is true', and then trying to convince you, i'll start with a bunch of observations done by scientists which i hope you'll agree with. quote me if you disagree with a part, and explain why you think its not true:

1. Variation.
well, this is pretty much a given. there is variation within a species. everybody has a different length, hair color, how easy you catch diseases, etc.

2. Heredity.
it appears that children always look something like their parents. if two parents have red hair, then their child will probably also have red hair. a long kid often has at least one long parent, etc. so the first observation is that we inherit traits from our parents. we now know that this is explained mostly by our DNA. we get genes from dad and from mom, and you'll be a mix of both parents.

3. Mutation.
even though we would hope that our dna stays perfect, this does not always happen. sometimes, our dna gets mutated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation is a whole article about this, but for example radiation can sometimes break down a bit of our DNA, or while making a copy of the dna(cells do this any time they split up) a mistake can happen with the copying, and a part of the dna gets copied twice. whatever the reason, sometimes dna does not copy perfectly. a great example of this is the down syndrome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome someone with the drown syndrome has an entire extra chromosome. not just a few genes but an entire chromosome got copied twice. the parents of a child with down syndrome often have normal dna(without the extra chromosome), so this shows that it is possible for a child to have a mutated dna which is different from the parent.

4. (Natural) selection.
this one is easy. not everybody has the same chance to survive and have children. modern humans aren't the best example here, so lets take a look at several animals were this happens(it happens with every animal though, but here are some examples): with prey animals, the weakest animals of the herd are often the first killed by hunting animals. thus, they don't grow up to have kids. or with migrating birds, only the strongest birds can survive the migration. but it is not only about dying: with some animals: only the alpha-male is allowed to have sex with the woman. thus, as some animals are alpha-male at one point, and some are not, then those alpha-males obviously have a greater chance to produce offspring.

now, with these four characteristics, we will have the basics of evolution. variation, heredity, mutation, and natural selection.
within a generation of children, there is a lot of variation in the genes(and thus in the external appearance). not all of these children will survive into adulthood and have children. but it is not up to random chance who survives. with natural selection we can say that some children have a bigger chance then others to grow up. thus, if a certain gene gives you an advantage, then not having this gene means you'll be more likely to die, and in the next generation, a greater percentage of the children will have that gene, because they inherit it from their parents.

for example, if a population of butterflies has a simple gene which makes them black if they have it, or white if they don't. if half of the population has the gene, then most likely around half of the children will have it too. but because they live in a field with white flowers, the white butterflies are harder to see by predators. thus, while 3/4th of the white butterflies survive, only 1/2 of the black ones do. so next year, the children will have more whites rather then black butterflies.

now, before having seen any fossils, we have found several characteristics of animals, and realized that this will lead to evolution. given enough time, we have found no limitations to how far this evolution goes, all the genes can mutate, hell, a new kid can even have an extra chromosome. there is no difference in how macro or micro evolution occurs. the distinction is irrelevant so far. once a group of animals has mutated far enough, there is nothing which suddenly causes them to stop mutating, they just mutate further.

now obviously, we have proposed a way of how evolution happens, but it would be a rather weak theory if we could not find evidence of this happening. to support this theory, we should look for examples in the real world. luckily, we found lots of them, and here are only a few examples:
-Dogs. the first dogs were simply tamed wolves, but because we humans selected the wolves we wanted to breed(we took natural selection in our own hands), we eventually ended up with all these different breeds of dogs. most of them are only several hunderd years old, and thanks to dog breeding and evolution we've ended up with a gigantic list of dog breeds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dog_breeds
-a famous example, Darwins finches: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin's_finches , a great number of different birds who all look alike.
-the human development of different forms of wheat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat#Origin the wheat we started out with 10.000 years ago is nothing like the wheat we eat and grow right now.
- the bacteria e.coli who have been evolving under observation for over 20 years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_lo ... experiment


however, instead of just listing examples and more examples, i think we should look at the broader picture.

by now, we have analyzed the characteristics of millions of plants, animals, and bacteria, and even examined their DNA.
now IF the evolution theory is right, then that would give us a great way to organize all these plants and animals.

and in fact, this appears to work brilliantly. by assuming the theory is right, scientists were able to organize ALL living creatures on earth.

here is a catalogue in which biologist are trying to put all known living creatures: http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/browse/tree
for example, the Animalia(the group of all animals), has several subdivisions, one of them is the Chordate(this is the group that includes *all* species which have a notochord, this includes all mammals, fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, salps, sea squirts and lancelets.), in this group you have the subgroup of mammalia, simply all mammals, all creatures which use breastfeeding. within this you have the order of the primates, which includes all, well, primates, monkeys and the like. within this order you have the family Hominidae, which includes only those closest to us, the gorrilas, orangutangs, chimpanzees, and, under the genus "homo", us homo sapiens.

we have been capable of organizing every living organism(and, thanks to fossils, a lot of dead ones) in one organized form, and in it you can see groups which share the same traits, from very general attributes(all animals that have a spine fall in the group of Chordate), to more specific attributes(all mammals use breastfeeding, but all mammals also have a neocortex in the brain).

you can go and ask for a specific example of an animal between a dinosaur and a bird, but you can also observe the following:
-certain dinosaurs had feathers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Micro ... lotype.png (look at the white arrows)
-hollow bones. both certain species of dinosaurs and birds have hollow bones.
-the bones and look of certain smaller dinosaurs.
-the similarity in DNA.
etc.

we wouldn't even need a sample to figure out that bird and dinosaurs are closely linked.
but since you asked for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microraptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapeornis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buitreraptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperonychus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahonavis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenlagia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graciliraptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troodontidae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchiornis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utahraptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adasaurus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianyuraptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinornithosaurus

the thing is, everything fits perfectly together by assuming evolution works, we can find certain genes and what their function is, see that species that have this gene have the function, we find common ancestors of species, we've observed evolution in the lab, etc. etc.

basically, if you assume that evolution works, the whole world around you makes perfect sense, while if you assume evolution doesn't work, you simply have no explanation for how all these animals are linked together, and how we can link natural selection, mutation and variation so easily together. and why would evolution not work? we have described a system for how it works, and we know that all the seperate elements of this system are in nature, and we've even seen evolution itself happen on a smaller scale. all the evidence in the natural kingdom points towards evolution.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Catarah on Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:43 pm

please note by the way, that i have been very short in my explanation. to fully explain every part of evolution, i think i'll be typing for a few more years.
so please, do ask questions, as i'm sure i skipped over some parts ;-)
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:18 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:#1. No. We have an alphabet with 26 letters.. so far, but people can still can and do create brand new words, pretty much all the time.

#2. The idea that this is NOT evolution, is something, again, put forward by Creationists who have finally recognized that their arguments are faulty.. but instead of just admitting they were wrong, have decided to change the definitions of the worlds they use. What you say only makes sense if you ignore what is actually said in evolutionary theory.. as well as lot of other science.


I wish that I had more time.

Yes, we only have 26 letters in the English alphabet; But no matter how hard we try to recombine, mutate or alter the letters, they will never evolve to form Chinese writings.

Let's start with a few facts. Were you, perhaps unaware that our style of writing is often called "Arabic" writing? Note that it has very little resemblance to writing currently used in the Middle East. In fact, it actually has some similarity to Asian writing.

So, even your basic argument is fundamentally false.

However, even if it WERE correct, it is still not applicable to the evolution debate.



Viceroy63 wrote: And that is what is false about the theory of evolution.

What is false?

That it takes only 26 letters to give us both Shakespeare, Superman comics, the encyclopedia and this entire forum? If a few words can provide that diversity, why not a limited number of DNA segments?

Aside from that, you start with saying "this cannot happen", but it has. Anyone trying to claim something that has happened "cannot" is well... definitely not a scientist. Frankly, not that intelligent in their arguments.

Viceroy63 wrote:Micro evolution and Macro evolution are not the same thing. Yet that's what Darwinist do all the time. The old switcharoo con where evolution is evolution not matter how you look at it.

I see, so we don't have different life forms on Earth and there never have been differing forms?

You are probably not old enough to remember, but Dr Morris and his ilk long argued that Dinosaurs did not exist ... at all. They were pure fictional creations. Somewhere along around the late 80's, after founding his institute, he finally realized that this was too much for even his supporters to make convincing. Ergo, this new theory of "micro" evolution that is to be kept fundamentally apart from "evolution" put forward by those nasty scientists.

This is not his only point of error or point where the institute has had to backpedal and change its views.

Anyhow, here is the REAL story. The real truth is that if you every read Darwin.. the uncensored version, not he version put out by creationists aroudn the time of the publication anniversary which omitted a couple of very key chapters and segments explaining a lot of the "issues" they have. Anyway, read it and you find that the story is one of very gradual change over a very, very, very long period of time. That was the idea from the very beginning. Gradual change -- not giraffes from birds or lizards that turn into octopuses, but finches that differentiated when isolated. Slothes that looked nothing like the fossils Darwin saw -- but he could see a very clear transition. (National Geographic did a nice rundown of this... far better than my summation here. You really should read it)

Ironically enough, it was not until long AFTER Darwin that scientists began to realize there was not enough time for that gradual change to have occured and produced all we see, as Darwin had thought, even given the fact that scientists now think the Earth is much, much older than Darwin did. As I and others have said, your focus, the focus of most young earthers on Darwin pretty much demonstrates how little you know of not just evolution, but science itself.

Viceroy63 wrote:And if it works in one area then it must work in all areas. Why even stars evolve??? Into what we don't know for no one ever saw it happen, but perhaps they evolve into pretty butterflies??? :roll:

For one thing, because stars are not living...

Folks do use the word "evolve" to mean, generally, any kind of change over time, but trying to claim using the same word means there can be no other meaning is, well, something kindergarteners do. Its not scientific or honest debate.

Ideas, plans, cities, etc... all can be said to evolve. Only an idiot or an intentionally obtuse person trying to bend over backward to make it seem as if evolution were something other than it is, would ever suggest this kind of evolution is in any way equivalent to the theory of Evolution, which deals solely with how we got the diversity of life we see here on Earth. In fact, even the basic origin is not specified in evolutionary theory, though, again, young earth creationists like to make that claim often.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:22 pm

crispybits wrote:Again you miss the real point Viceroy, any organisation seeking the truth doesn't start of from any preconceptions and look to make reality fit into whatever those are, they start off from a totally blank slate and whatever they find and can prove is the truth.


So why don't Evolutionist follow that rule? Why is the fact that Archeology, History, Prophecy and revealed knowledge that support the Biblical claim of creation not looked into and rejected by Darwinist, all the while the Darwinian Hoax is perpetrated on a gullible humanity and boasted as fact?

There is evidence for God but anti-God scientist such as yourselves just don't want to hear it. For example...

Thousands of years before Scientist figured out that it is best to wash your hands before going from patient to patient, the Bible was already claiming this. Untold thousand of woman giving birth would die because Doctors went from one patient to the next and never washed their hands.

This is evidence of a God revealing knowledge that a people of their time could not have gained in any other way. This is rejected evidence by Anti-God scientist such as yourself.

The following can be read in it's entirety at...
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scienti ... html#SFB06

Moses
Acts 7:22 tells us that …“Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians…” Yet scientific ignorance is conspicuous by its absence in the first five books of the Bible, written by Moses approximately 1491-1451 B.C. In fact the Torah (or law of Moses) not only reveals advanced principles and knowledge about hygiene, quarantine and sanitation far superior to that possessed by the Egyptians and other ancient societies of that day, but also far exceeded medical standards practiced as recently as 100 years ago. Where did Moses get this advanced information?


Sanitary Practices in The 19th Century
Our medical knowledge was abysmal right up to the beginning of the twentieth century. It was not until this century that medical science had a full understanding of the fact that most diseases are caused by infection of microscopic organisms. Accordingly, the medical value of sterilization, sanitation, and quarantines were virtually unappreciated. Please note that the following took place in the 19th century.

In the 1840s, puerperal or childbirth fever, a bacterial infection of the female genital tract after childbirth, was taking the lives of up to 30% of women who gave birth in hospitals. Women who gave birth at home remained relatively unaffected.

Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis (1818-65), a Hungarian obstetrician educated at the universities of Pest and Vienna was an assistant professor on the maternity ward of the Vienna General Hospital. He observed that women examined by student doctors who had not washed their hands after leaving the autopsy room had very high death rates. When a colleague who had received a scalpel cut died of infection, Semmelweis concluded that puerperal fever was septic and contagious and that he and the medical students carried "cadaverous particles" on their hands.

He ordered students to wash their hands with chlorinated lime before examining patients; as a result, the maternal death rate was reduced from 12% to 1% in 2 years. Nevertheless, Semmelweis encountered strong opposition from hospital officials as some doctors were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands; they felt that their social status as gentlemen was inconsistent with the idea that their hands could be unclean.

The existence of germs was unknown until around A.D. 1890 when Louis Pasteur demonstrated in his Germ Theory of Disease that most infectious diseases were caused by microorganisms originating from outside the body. While Pasteur was not the first to propose germ theory he developed it and conducted experiments that clearly indicated its correctness, and managed to convince most of Europe it was true. This new understanding of germs and their means of transmission led to improved sanitary standards that resulted in an enormous drop in the mortality rate.

Yet these core principles of sanitation were being practiced by the Israelites thousands of years earlier.
(http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scienti ... html#SFB06)
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:44 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:The following can be read in it's entirety at...
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scienti ... html#SFB06

Moses
Acts 7:22 tells us that …“Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians…” Yet scientific ignorance is conspicuous by its absence in the first five books of the Bible, written by Moses approximately 1491-1451 B.C. In fact the Torah (or law of Moses) not only reveals advanced principles and knowledge about hygiene, quarantine and sanitation far superior to that possessed by the Egyptians and other ancient societies of that day, but also far exceeded medical standards practiced as recently as 100 years ago. Where did Moses get this advanced information?


http://www.plumbingsupply.com/pmegypt.html

Seems the Egyptians had pretty elaborate plumbing techniques, and also practiced rituals of purification.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/info/me ... P8xMGflS70

They advised people to wash and shave their bodies to prevent infection

They were very respected as physicians throughout the ancient world

http://historicmysteries.com/the-practi ... ent-egypt/

Again, they were culturally conditioned to bathe regularly.

Again they were respected throughout the ancinent world on medical matters.



Seems you've been caught by another lie told by the creationist puppet masters. When will you start thinking for yourself and actually looking for confirmation from independent sources (as in non-religious ones) about what you're oh so gullibly just falling for hook, line and sinker?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:56 pm

By the way Moses basically took all the magic spells and religious waffle out of Egyptian medicine and kept the rest. In Ancient Egypt, if he'd had to keep quiet about his Judaist beliefs because of fear of perseution, he would have been considered an atheist himself.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Frigidus on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:37 pm

Also, it has been widely established that Moses did not write any of the Old Testament. Anyone that is a legitimate Biblical scholar (i.e. a historian) would not suggest that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

Actually, there were never actually any Hebrews enslaved in Egypt anyways, so he didn't even exist.
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Re: Evolution Has Never Occurred!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:30 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:I can show you evidence of a world wide flood but you can't show me one piece of evidence of a dinosaur turning into a bird. Yet that is what science teaches.


Viceroy, meet Archaeopteryx. Archaeopteryx, this is Viceroy. I don't think the two of you will get along.


No Haggis, You are Wrong! Archaeopteryx is not evidence of a Dinosaur turning into a bird. It is not even a missing link. It is evidence of the ignorance of so called intellectual folks allowing themselves to get duped into believing the lie that Darwinists want you to believe so badly. Why don't you research the facts before posting and repeating evolutionist lies.

For the Record, if you bothered to looked into it, Archaeopteryx is a fully formed bird and not a dinosaur at all. If the species known as Birds evolved from the Dinosaurs then where is the missing link between the dinosaur and Archaeopteryx? Again I repeat that Archaeopteryx is a fully formed bird just as we see with every creature in the fossil records, all of them fully formed and no intermediary species between any of them at all.

"Archaeopteryx, though both more avian and displaying a greater degree of autapomorphy than previously thought (Elzanowski & Wellnhofer 1996, Elzanowski 2002) is nonetheless an unquestionably primitive bird."
(http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Archaeopt ... fully_bird)

Would you like for me to show you evidence of a world wide BIBLICAL flood now?



HOLD UP, BROTHER. Are you saying the existence of intermediate species is impossible?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:42 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Controversy
Authenticity

Beginning in 1985, a group including astronomer Fred Hoyle and physicist Lee Spetner published a series of papers claiming that the feathers on the Berlin and London specimens of Archaeopteryx were forged.[70][71][72][73] Their claims were repudiated by Alan J. Charig and others at the British Museum (Natural History).[74] Most of their evidence for a forgery was based on unfamiliarity with the processes of lithification; for example, they proposed that based on the difference in texture associated with the feathers, feather impressions were applied to a thin layer of cement,[71] without realizing that feathers themselves would have caused a textural difference.[74] They also expressed disbelief that slabs would split so smoothly, or that one half of a slab containing fossils would have good preservation, but not the counterslab.[70][72] These, though, are common properties of Solnhofen fossils because the dead animals would fall onto hardened surfaces which would form a natural plane for the future slabs to split along, leaving the bulk of the fossil on one side and little on the other.[74] They also misinterpreted the fossils, claiming that the tail was forged as one large feather,[71] when this is visibly not the case.[74] In addition, they claimed that the other specimens of Archaeopteryx known at the time did not have feathers,[70][71] which is incorrect; the Maxberg and Eichstätt specimens have obvious feathers.[74] Finally, the motives they suggested for a forgery are not strong, and contradictory; one is that Richard Owen wanted to forge evidence in support of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, which is unlikely given Owen's views toward Darwin and his theory. The other is that Owen wanted to set a trap for Darwin, hoping the latter would support the fossils so Owen could discredit him with the forgery; this is unlikely because Owen himself wrote a detailed paper on the London specimen, so such an action would certainly backfire.[75]

Charig et al. pointed to the presence of hairline cracks in the slabs running through both rock and fossil impressions, and mineral growth over the slabs that had occurred before discovery and preparation, as evidence that the feathers were original.[74] Spetner et al. then attempted to show that the cracks would have naturally propagated through their postulated cement layer,[76] but neglected to account for the fact that the cracks were old and had been filled with calcite, and thus were not able to propagate.[75] They also attempted to show the presence of cement on the London specimen through X-ray spectroscopy, and did find something that was not rock.[76] However, it was not cement, either, and is most probably from a fragment of silicone rubber left behind when molds were made of the specimen.[75] Their suggestions have not been taken seriously by palaeontologists, as their evidence was largely based on misunderstandings of geology, and they never discussed the other feather-bearing specimens, which have increased in number since then. Charig et al. reported a discolouration: a dark band between two layers of limestone – however, they say it is the product of sedimentation.[74] It is natural for limestone to take on the colour of its surroundings and most limestones are coloured (if not colour banded) to some degree[77] – the darkness was attributed to such impurities. They also mention that a complete absence of air bubbles in the rock slabs is further proof that the specimen is authentic.[74]


Yes Jones; All of those numbers in brackets "[74]" for example is where you would find those words and claims.

"they say it is the product of sedimentation.[74]"

No one is arguing with me or some creationist institute. But rather with a whole host of authorities who have written whole books on the subject. That a Creationist Institute is presenting these facts should not make a difference to the truly enlightened scientist among us. To reject it because it is a Creationist Institute making the presentation is simply ignorance and book burning mentality. This goes for everyone, not just jones. I just happen to use this comment to respond to everyone at once.


that you are not singling me out. Similarly I have nothing personal against you. I find your beliefs odd, and your penchant for sliding away from questions about your sources and your claims annoying, but that's not poersonal either.
I have no idea what you mean in your above post. Here's reference 74 from the article, which argues with the weak points put forward in the other publications...

74- Charig, A. J.; Greenaway, F.; Milner, A. N.; Walker, C. A.; and Whybrow, P. J. (1986). "Archaeopteryx is not a forgery". Science 232 (4750): 622–626
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:43 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:No one is arguing with me or some creationist institute. But rather with a whole host of authorities who have written whole books on the subject. That a Creationist Institute is presenting these facts should not make a difference to the truly enlightened scientist among us. To reject it because it is a Creationist Institute making the presentation is simply ignorance and book burning mentality. This goes for everyone, not just jones. I just happen to use this comment to respond to everyone at once.


Lets try putting this another way as you still didn't get it.

How much would you pay Michael Jordan for basketball lessons?
How much would you pay Stephen Hawking for physics lessons?

Now:

How much would you pay Michael Jordan for physics lessons?
How much would you pay Stephen Hawking for basketball lessons?

If you answered the same for both sets of questions you are undoubtedly totally deluded.

If you answered differently on the sets of questions then you DO understand the meaning of expertise and experience, so why do you ignore this when creationist authorities regularly speak outside of their expertise on very advanced and complicated scientific matters without first going and getting a relevant and comprehensive education in those matters?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:07 pm

crispybits wrote:How much would you pay Michael Jordan for basketball lessons? Zero.
How much would you pay Stephen Hawking for physics lessons? Zero.

Now:

How much would you pay Michael Jordan for physics lessons? Zero.
How much would you pay Stephen Hawking for basketball lessons? Zero.


If you answered the same for both sets of questions you are undoubtedly totally deluded.


Oops.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:09 pm

OK rephrase the questions to how much could they charge for those lessons. Smart-Alec :-P
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:03 pm

crispybits wrote:OK rephrase the questions to how much could they charge for those lessons. Smart-Alec :-P


(1) Do the prices for those jobs truly reflect their relevant knowledge and skills for the job? Or are prices part of the conspiracy?

(2) Are the researchers at the Creationist Institute well paid?
Assume that their price of labor is the same as the non-creationist scientists. What then, crispytbits, what then?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:21 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
crispybits wrote:OK rephrase the questions to how much could they charge for those lessons. Smart-Alec :-P


(1) Do the prices for those jobs truly reflect their relevant knowledge and skills for the job? Or are prices part of the conspiracy?

(2) Are the researchers at the Creationist Institute well paid?
Assume that their price of labor is the same as the non-creationist scientists. What then, crispytbits, what then?

Can a free market in America answer and solve this question?


--Andy
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:43 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
crispybits wrote:OK rephrase the questions to how much could they charge for those lessons. Smart-Alec :-P


(1) Do the prices for those jobs truly reflect their relevant knowledge and skills for the job? Or are prices part of the conspiracy?

(2) Are the researchers at the Creationist Institute well paid?
Assume that their price of labor is the same as the non-creationist scientists. What then, crispytbits, what then?

Can a free market in America answer and solve this question?


--Andy


Prices enable the clearer expectation of profit, and profit is an end which has many means. How many goods and of what kind are you willing and capable of exchanging voluntarily?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:44 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
crispybits wrote:Again you miss the real point Viceroy, any organisation seeking the truth doesn't start of from any preconceptions and look to make reality fit into whatever those are, they start off from a totally blank slate and whatever they find and can prove is the truth.


So why don't Evolutionist follow that rule? Why is the fact that Archeology, History, Prophecy and revealed knowledge that support the Biblical claim of creation not looked into and rejected by Darwinist, all the while the Darwinian Hoax is perpetrated on a gullible humanity and boasted as fact?

First and foremost, stop pretending that this is about the BIBLICAL view of creation versus science. It is rather a debate between a portion of folks within Christianity, almost all not scientists and most of the scientists not trained in either biology OR geology and the rest of Christianity, virtually all Jews, most people subscribing to other religions and a smattering of atheists and folks who subscribe to no particular belief.

Get that clear, because it is the very firm truth.. and denying that means you are working with a whole range of pretense.

Beyond that, every time young earthers are given the opportunity to present their "new found data", it is just wrong. I have myself more than a few times gone through various postings on the Institute for Creation Research, back when it was still based in Pasadena mostly, and critiqued them. Mostly, they don't even meet the standards of real science. Two classics are the "study" of the spiney anteater, where among other things these "wonderful scientists" claimed that they had "fully studied" a particular area and not found any evidence of a link.. there for it was just more proof that evolution was wrong.

A. Four years of not finding something is not enough to prove much of anything. I have been party to studies that have gone on for over 50 years.. and STILL found new never before seen species or data. Saying you did not find anything in a 4 year study just means that that particular study did not find anything in 4 years. year 5 might have yielded results.. or year 55. ONLY someone pretty much ignoring the scientific process would even begin to make such an assertion. Dr Morris ilk make these types of claims over and over and over. Further, there were no published details about methods or procedures. A LOT of studies fail due to poor design.

B. evolutionists are also stumped. See, lacking data means they don't have the answer.. not that there is no answer. The proof of the evolution of the spiney anteater is the presence of the spiney anteater. The puzzle is how it got there. Saying "insert God" might make a nice philosophical debate, but for science you have to have someting provable. That isn't.What makes it less than science and into something actually dangerous is that folks like them and you want to claim not just that you see this gap as a problem.. and think there might be another answer than provided already, you want to claim that this lack of an answer is equal to proof that the entire group of theories combined into evolutionary thinking are wrong, simply because there is no easy, ready answer... yet to this question (or many others).

Viceroy63 wrote:There is evidence for God but anti-God scientist such as yourselves just don't want to hear it. For example...

NIce try, but no.

And you might ask yourself why this bit of utterly false information is so important to folks like Dr Morris to promote? WHY do they persist in claiming that those who accept evolution, scientific basis for proving facts and so forth are necessarily against God, atheistic or worse? In fact, the opposite is very true. Most scientists do have faith, do believe in God in one way or another. In the US, this is most commonly Christianity and Judaism, though other religions are gaining ground numerically.
Viceroy63 wrote:Thousands of years before Scientist figured out that it is best to wash your hands before going from patient to patient, the Bible was already claiming this. Untold thousand of woman giving birth would die because Doctors went from one patient to the next and never washed their hands.

The Bible said this, so did Asians, so did south American groups... etc, etc. Some things are just fact.

HOWEVER, you present and interesting concept when you talk about the ignorance. See, it was the western idea that they had to ignore anything not fully western and of their narrow vision of Christianity, in particular that has led to a lot of these errors. Interestingly, that problem was not seen as often where Christianity was not begun.

Viceroy63 wrote:This is evidence of a God revealing knowledge that a people of their time could not have gained in any other way. This is rejected evidence by Anti-God scientist such as yourself.
NO, its evidence of you reciting something without bothering to verify if it actually is even true.

Many other cultures with no knowledge of the Bible, none-the-less firmly believed in cleanliness. In many cases, they had knowledge, still have knowledge of medicines and antibiotic substances that western "scientists" ignored for a long time because their arrogant assumption was that no "primitive" and particularly not Christian society could know much of anything worthwhile.

Viceroy63 wrote:The following can be read in it's entirety at...
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scienti ... html#SFB06


LOL... not right now, I have to go, maybe later.

In the meantime, how about you visit just a few of the many websites to which we have directed you.. websites that show what you claim to be true just isn't.
Viceroy63 wrote:Moses
Acts 7:22 tells us that …“Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians…” Yet scientific ignorance is conspicuous by its absence in the first five books of the Bible, written by Moses approximately 1491-1451 B.C. In fact the Torah (or law of Moses) not only reveals advanced principles and knowledge about hygiene, quarantine and sanitation far superior to that possessed by the Egyptians and other ancient societies of that day, but also far exceeded medical standards practiced as recently as 100 years ago. Where did Moses get this advanced information?

You are really stepping into ignorance here, sorry. The Egyptians are known to have done brain surgery.


I can go on about THAT topic a lot, but right now, I have to go... so until later....
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:46 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
crispybits wrote:OK rephrase the questions to how much could they charge for those lessons. Smart-Alec :-P


(1) Do the prices for those jobs truly reflect their relevant knowledge and skills for the job? Or are prices part of the conspiracy?

(2) Are the researchers at the Creationist Institute well paid?
Assume that their price of labor is the same as the non-creationist scientists. What then, crispytbits, what then?

Can a free market in America answer and solve this question?


--Andy


Prices enable the clearer expectation of profit, and profit is an end which has many means. How many goods and of what kind are you willing and capable of exchanging voluntarily?

Actually, you are on to something here in your jesting. Don't have time right now, but when you "follow the money".. you find that this entire movement is supported by sources other than churches, and that a lot of the criticisms are firmly and "ironically" targeting things that are just rather inconvenient to certain parties financial interest. I am not sure that you can still follow the trail, though.. these folks are pretty adept at hiding their true intentions.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:51 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Prices enable the clearer expectation of profit, and profit is an end which has many means. How many goods and of what kind are you willing and capable of exchanging voluntarily?


Here are my detailed notes:

show



--Andy
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:07 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
crispybits wrote:OK rephrase the questions to how much could they charge for those lessons. Smart-Alec :-P


(1) Do the prices for those jobs truly reflect their relevant knowledge and skills for the job? Or are prices part of the conspiracy?

(2) Are the researchers at the Creationist Institute well paid?
Assume that their price of labor is the same as the non-creationist scientists. What then, crispytbits, what then?

Can a free market in America answer and solve this question?


--Andy


Prices enable the clearer expectation of profit, and profit is an end which has many means. How many goods and of what kind are you willing and capable of exchanging voluntarily?

Actually, you are on to something here in your jesting. Don't have time right now, but when you "follow the money".. you find that this entire movement is supported by sources other than churches, and that a lot of the criticisms are firmly and "ironically" targeting things that are just rather inconvenient to certain parties financial interest. I am not sure that you can still follow the trail, though.. these folks are pretty adept at hiding their true intentions.


You speak of consumer preferences from a particular target market! The market process becomes clearer.

The price of research at production facilities like the Creationist Institute largely depends on the demand of their consumers (e.g. the donors and the consumers of retail goods like Creationist books and articles). If I had to guess, their demand is largely driven by their desire to exchange for what they want to believe.

As crispybits already hints at, the Creation-scientists could not supply their services at prices similar to the prices supplied by physicists, biologists, and other physical scientists. Why? Because the physical scientists are in a completely different market which requires a different set of knowledge and skills.

In other words, if the creationist cannot supply such a price, then obviously he lacks the knowledge and skills that are relevant to that particular science.

Therefore, should the creationists' arguments and articles be taken seriously by the science-minded community?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:09 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Prices enable the clearer expectation of profit, and profit is an end which has many means. How many goods and of what kind are you willing and capable of exchanging voluntarily?


Here are my detailed notes:

show



--Andy


My political friends will sort you out soon, sir.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:11 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:My political friends will sort you out soon, sir.


God willing. Notice how I upgraded in that last snapshot?


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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:31 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
As crispybits already hints at, the Creation-scientists could not supply their services at prices similar to the prices supplied by physicists, biologists, and other physical scientists. Why? Because the physical scientists are in a completely different market which requires a different set of knowledge and skills.

Yes, but the major "market" for basic biology and geology type research is the public, government and university funding, because there is little direct, immediately apparent profit to be found.

Combatting ideas that will force major change in business practices, particularly global warming and oil, but also some other issues (many land uses are "stifled" by the endangered species act, for example) has absolute and definite profit value.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
In other words, if the creationist cannot supply such a price, then obviously he lacks the knowledge and skills that are relevant to that particular science.
Irrelevant. They are creating a new science, training up a new generation that is ignorant of the fact that they have been duped with lies.

Anyone posting here may well be a troll, but there are plenty of real people out there who actually believe that they know the truth and science is basically wrong, not to be trusted. THAT is the goal of, not Dr Morris himself (he is a "true believer") -- have a generation or two trained up and convinced to distrust basic science and the "scientific establishment" (even though its much less homogeneous than they wish to believe).

BigBallinStalin wrote:Therefore, should the creationists' arguments and articles be taken seriously by the science-minded community?

We ignore them to our perile. This belief system has been growing and spreading and is currently causing headaches all over. Just the fact that every state is facing repeated challenges to textbook approval, has to pay for repeated court battles.. its one thing to fight legitimate debates, something else to be forced to waste time on the above type garbage.. or actually even more slick stuff.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby tzor on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:13 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:Four years of not finding something is not enough to prove much of anything.


It took 50 years to find the "God-Damned" particle, renamed the "God" particle by the scientific papers, properly known as the Higgs Boson, and we aren't absolutely sure it was found.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby chang50 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:29 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Therefore, should the creationists' arguments and articles be taken seriously by the science-minded community?

We ignore them to our perile. This belief system has been growing and spreading and is currently causing headaches all over. Just the fact that every state is facing repeated challenges to textbook approval, has to pay for repeated court battles.. its one thing to fight legitimate debates, something else to be forced to waste time on the above type garbage.. or actually even more slick stuff.[/quote]


To the best of my knowledge these repeated legal battles are only happening in the US,does anyone have an answer as to why this should be happening only in one modern,developed democracy and not in the rest?
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