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CreepersWiener wrote:Nobunaga wrote:
Executions of Kiev Jews by German army mobile killing units (Einsatzgruppen) near Ivangorod Ukraine.
The exterminations in the Ukraine were not only of Jewish people but also a large chunk of Christians. Perhaps as many as three million Christians in the Ukraine were killed by just the Nazis, now how many did the Communists kill?
I am not familiar with this part of history and too lazy at the moment to google it. I am hoping someone already knows this stuff and is willing to elaborate my lazy arse.
Baron Von PWN wrote:CreepersWiener wrote:Nobunaga wrote:
Executions of Kiev Jews by German army mobile killing units (Einsatzgruppen) near Ivangorod Ukraine.
The exterminations in the Ukraine were not only of Jewish people but also a large chunk of Christians. Perhaps as many as three million Christians in the Ukraine were killed by just the Nazis, now how many did the Communists kill?
I am not familiar with this part of history and too lazy at the moment to google it. I am hoping someone already knows this stuff and is willing to elaborate my lazy arse.
Look up the holodmor, some claim it was a genocide against the Ukrainians. Short answer is a lot of them.
The holocaust wasn't only about murdering Jewish people, it was about murdering all sorts of people deemed undesirable by the nazi state. Certain types of christians, communists, roma, gays/lesbians, alcoholics ect. Anyone the nazis didin't like could find themselves in the camps. Though the Nazis primarily reserved death camps(camps whose sole purpose was industrial killing of humans) to the Jews. Arguably Soviet POWs also got this treatment though that was mostly through starvation, rather than gas chambers and the like.
Ah, the first sign of a losing argument; the old ad hominem._sabotage_ wrote:You smoke way too much crack.
Normally, player and I disagree on many things, while she is not the best when it comes to history, you are not yourself. In other words; pot meet kettle.You have no concept of history and can only reiterate mainstream jargon.
Read a book or two that wasn't part of your suggested summer holiday reading list or recommended by Oprah.
Which has to do with this, how? Nothing? I thought so. Moving on.The scariest thing that you could tell the citizens of any nation is that the US is coming to "save" them. You still believe that we were welcomed as freedom fighters in Iraq don't you?
Agreed. Like the Jews in WWII Europe being systematically murdered by the Nazi governments simply for being Jews (Hitler made them the scape goat of the German depression following WWI, FYI).Any group would take advantage of any situation, but not every group is equally able to do so.
Maybe you should take a support for Israel support letter in to work and make sure everyone signs it just so you can make sure they are free, anti-racist, linetoers.
premio53 wrote:The Jews are one of the foundation stones of proof that the Bible is inspired by God. They are a chosen race that that can never be destroyed. It is through them that the Jewish Messiah came into the world 2,000 year ago and in the near future (during the battle of Armageddon) their Messiah whom they rejected the first time will return to save them from extinction.
Jeremiah 31:35-37
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
The history of "The Wandering Jew" is one of persecution throughout the church age in country after country. The fact that they have been preserved as a separate race while being scattered around the world and having no country to call their own for 2500 years is beyond human comprehension.
I grew up in the South during the civil rights movement and saw first hand the hatred of the Jewish people. The Ku Klux Klan hated them more than they did the Black race and charged them with trying to destroy the White race through interracial marriages while keeping themselves separate, similar to what Hitler did.
Although out numbered a 100 to 1 there is no power on earth that will destroy modern day Israel and woe be to anyone who tries.
AndyDufresne wrote:premio53 wrote:Actually, I think one power might be able to. I think they could probably destroy themselves.
Absolutely agree.ahunda wrote:The singularity of the Holocaust:
a) Does not lie in the number of deaths, but in its character. It was not a political cleansing as in Stalinist Russia, or a tragically high death toll during the course of a war. It was a racially motivated state policy with the declared goal of the complete annihilation of an entire people.
b) It was industrialised mass murder. Not a wild slaughter, where people enraged with hate went on a killing spree. But a systematic mass murder, planned by a government, organised & overseen by a state bureaucracy, executed with cold & clinical precision. The concentration camps were nothing but death factories. Mass murder Fordian style.
c) It was the first genocide committed by a modern & "civilised" people after the period of enlightenment, when humanity had actually believed, that it had left atrocities of that kind behind.
Feel free to argue these points, but at least know, why the Holocaust by most of political science today is seen as a singular & unique event in world history, and why it is seen different than other genocides and/or mass killings in history.
ahunda wrote:Also: To accuse Israel or "the Jews" of exploiting the Holocaust is at the very least cynical, if not outright anti-semitic.
ahunda wrote:Jewish history is a history of persecution throughout the centuries, with the holocaust as the tragic culmination point. This of course has a huge impact on Jewish identity & self-conception. Anti-semitism has been a central aspect of Jewish life for centuries, so of course Jewish people are very sensitive to this issue.
ahunda wrote:The accusation, that Jewish people somehow claim a special status or role today is just another anti-semitic slur. Most Jewish organisations, that work with Holocaust memorial and/or the history of anti-semitism, make it very clear, that they see the Holocaust as a warning, where all kinds of racism can lead. They often work closely together with Romani organisations, that commemorate the Sinti & Roma victims of the 3d Reich.
ahunda wrote:If there is a special focus on anti-semitism there, then it is because it is their very own history, and their work is meant to prevent it being their future too ...
David Hirsh wrote:Well, one can do all sorts of strange things with analogies. The important thing about Nazism, the reason that Nazism is Nazism in the popular and political imagination, is because it set out to exterminate the Jews. And extermination is a project that’s even rather different from mass murder. So Nazism is known for extermination. Now the idea that what is happening in the Israeli-Palestine conflict is anything similar to that is just wrong. There’s no extermination, there never was a plan of extermination, and there is no mass murder and there is no genocide. So why do people keep raising that as an analogy?
It seems to me that one of the reasons people raise that as an analogy is because they think it has a particular effect on Jews when it is said that the Jews or Israelis have become similar to those who persecuted them. And of course it does have a particular effect on Jews. It has an effect of upsetting Jews. I think that that’s really the point of it, the point of it isn’t to come out with a serious [analysis]. There are all sorts of serious historical analogies for the rise of Jewish and Palestinian nationalism in the Middle East. One can look at Europe in the 19th century, one can look at the breakdown of the 0ttoman Empire, one can look at the Balkans, one can look at many, many things. It’s not similar to Nazism. Why do people say it’s similar to Nazism? They say it’s similar to Nazism in order to wind up the Jews, so actually the charge that the Israelis are the new Nazis is a kind of Jew-baiting. It’s literally that. It is a charge whose function is to upset and to annoy and to wind up.
I also find that it’s one of those things people think of, and they actually think they’re very clever when they think of it. They say ‘the Jews have become the Nazis.’ There’s a kind of kernel behind it [that] one can understand, the idea that if one has been subject to persecution then one should be able to recognize it and one should be less willing to become a part of something like that it in the future. But it seems to me a fundamentally flawed kind of logic, partly because one only has to ask the question what were the Jews supposed to learn at Auschwitz?
The question itself is fundamentally flawed. Auschwitz wasn’t any kind of positive learning experience, and the overwhelmingly majority of the Jews who had anything to do with the Holocaust learned nothing from it because they were killed by it. It wasn’t a learning experience and it wasn’t an experience which made people better, or more left-wing, or more anti-racist. There was no silver lining to the Holocaust.
What did people learn? People learned next time, don’t rely on western civilization to prevent antisemitism and genocide, next time have bigger friends, next time have a state with which you can defend yourself and next time have more tanks. Now that’s not my lesson it’s not my politics
The idea that the Jews should have learned something from the Holocaust is a kind of category error in thinking about the Jews as one people, as a unity. Because in truth different Jews learned different things from the Holocaust, and different Jews have different kinds of politics and different kinds of worldviews and different kinds of attitudes to what goes on. And the idea that the Jews collectively should think one thing or learn one thing is problematic. It’s an idea which comes up again and again, and I think it doesn’t make much sense.
I’m afraid to articulate the thought, what should the Blacks have learned from slavery? You just have to articulate the thought to realize what a vile kind of way of thinking it is, yet people say this about the Jews routinely – and some serious people. [...]
Source: http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2012/ ... cy-theory/
You brought it up, in all your explanations of how Jews are perpetual victims and declaring that they don't have the right to use the holocaust as justification for actions is being anti-semetic.ahunda wrote:When did this turn into a discussion over Israel, its policies and/or its right to exist ? I was under the impression, this thread was about the Holocaust ?
I am sorry, but I won´t participate in the discussion about Israel. I did so in the past, and it was pretty frustrating & tiring and never went anywhere.
ahunda wrote:2 things I want to note though:
a) The pictures posted by smegal are disgusting. They are trivialising the Holocaust & at the same time demonising Israel. Feel free to debate Israels policies & criticise them. But they are not "a racially motivated state policy with the declared goal of the complete annihilation of an entire people".
ahunda wrote:By equating Israels policies with the Holocaust you are demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the very nature of the Holocaust as well as a lack of understanding of the situation in the Middle East today.
Well, Iraq is a far more modern and specific example. Still, all of that and the treatment of Native Americans, treatment of Japanese Americans, even Germans here are all brought up continually in reference to Israel. US actions are definitely not always peachy, but none of that excuses Israel's giving Palestiniens no choice BUT to fight to keepthe land they have lived upon for millenia or to leave.ahunda wrote:More appropriate would be comparisons between Israels policies and that of any other nation occupying a territory, i.e. choosing pictures from US road-blocks & check-points in Iraq.
Not when it comes to Israel, no. Israel would quite literally not exist without the holocaust. Pretending otherwise is to deny history.ahunda wrote:But that´s not the point, is it ? The point of using the Holocaust comparison is getting a rise out of people. I find that distasteful & pretty sick.
ahunda wrote:b) All these other references to the Holocaust, that are suggesting, that Israel or "the Jews" should have "learned" something from it, are just as sick.
That mass hatred and blame of another group of people has no place in any society.ahunda wrote:Are you people actually aware, what you are saying there ? Wtf were "the Jews" supposed to "learn" from the Holocaust ?
ahunda wrote: There are lessons to be learned from the Holocaust, but those are for all of humanity. And those lessons do not include to use the Holocaust as a comparison, whenever you want to "criticise" or discredit a policy you disagree with.
oVo wrote:AndyDufresne wrote:premio53 wrote:Actually, I think one power might be able to. I think they could probably destroy themselves.
You may be right. The lack of empathy --for all residents of the middle east-- exhibited by the Israeli government though out their existence is appalling. One might expect a nation that endured and survived the abuse of Hitler's Nazi Germany would not subject others to similar treatment. Their fear of violence is understandable --as is their right to defend themselves-- yet they have never had leadership with the vision to govern in a way that might resolve or diffuse the situation.
The eighteen million Russians killed in WWII --12,000,000 civilians-- is nothing to sneeze at.
AndyDufresne wrote:premio53 wrote:Although out numbered a 100 to 1 there is no power on earth that will destroy modern day Israel and woe be to anyone who tries.
Actually, I think one power might be able to. I think they could probably destroy themselves.
--Andy
Gillipig wrote:AndyDufresne wrote:premio53 wrote:Although out numbered a 100 to 1 there is no power on earth that will destroy modern day Israel and woe be to anyone who tries.
Actually, I think one power might be able to. I think they could probably destroy themselves.
--Andy
If he says it loud enough he might even start believing in it himself.
Symmetry wrote:Is CC really the kind of place that wants to publish this material?
muy_thaiguy wrote:Symmetry wrote:Is CC really the kind of place that wants to publish this material?
Most certainly not the first time something like this has been posted, and doubtful it would be the last.
Symmetry wrote:muy_thaiguy wrote:Symmetry wrote:Is CC really the kind of place that wants to publish this material?
Most certainly not the first time something like this has been posted, and doubtful it would be the last.
I'm no fan of the OP or his Nazi shtick, but Holocaust denial ain't what I see this community, this forum, or this website as being for.
Gillipig wrote:Symmetry wrote:muy_thaiguy wrote:Symmetry wrote:Is CC really the kind of place that wants to publish this material?
Most certainly not the first time something like this has been posted, and doubtful it would be the last.
I'm no fan of the OP or his Nazi shtick, but Holocaust denial ain't what I see this community, this forum, or this website as being for.
I think it's more mitigation than denial, he's not saying no Jews were killed just that the total number is less than people think. Maybe it's because I'm so crazy liberal but I have nothing against a discussion like that. Not that I think he's right but he's welcome to try to convince me. I don't want to see this locked just based on the topic.
Symmetry wrote:Gillipig wrote:Symmetry wrote:muy_thaiguy wrote:Symmetry wrote:Is CC really the kind of place that wants to publish this material?
Most certainly not the first time something like this has been posted, and doubtful it would be the last.
I'm no fan of the OP or his Nazi shtick, but Holocaust denial ain't what I see this community, this forum, or this website as being for.
I think it's more mitigation than denial, he's not saying no Jews were killed just that the total number is less than people think. Maybe it's because I'm so crazy liberal but I have nothing against a discussion like that. Not that I think he's right but he's welcome to try to convince me. I don't want to see this locked just based on the topic.
Perhaps it's my previous dealings with the OP and his behavior before, suffice it to say that this isn't his first flirt with Nazism.
Funkyterrance wrote:The OP hasn't said anything out of line so yeah it would be a little unjust to intervene with this thread in any way. Just sounds political so far.
PLAYER57832 wrote:OH, yeah... my family is Danish. Study a bit about them before claiming I come from a family of racist pigs again.
PLAYER57832 wrote:You brought it up, in all your explanations of how Jews are perpetual victims and declaring that they don't have the right to use the holocaust as justification for actions is being anti-semetic.ahunda wrote:When did this turn into a discussion over Israel, its policies and/or its right to exist ? I was under the impression, this thread was about the Holocaust ?
I am sorry, but I won´t participate in the discussion about Israel. I did so in the past, and it was pretty frustrating & tiring and never went anywhere.
ahunda wrote:To accuse Israel or "the Jews" of exploiting the Holocaust is at the very least cynical, if not outright anti-semitic.
PLAYER57832 wrote:ahunda wrote:b) All these other references to the Holocaust, that are suggesting, that Israel or "the Jews" should have "learned" something from it, are just as sick.
Well then you need to study history a bit more.
Having been harmed does NOT give someone the right to turn and harm someone else. As they teach in kindergarten.. "two wrongs don't make a right." That you claim even DEBATING the issue is somehow "sick" shows precisely why the discussion MUST continue... and why the real lesson of the holocaust, that any group can be targeted and blamed, etc.... will be missed and the hatred perpetuated.
I hope you are proud of perpetuating hatred and not peace. I prefer peace. Peace and tolerance are not always easy, but it is better.
PLAYER57832 wrote:That mass hatred and blame of another group of people has no place in any society.ahunda wrote:Are you people actually aware, what you are saying there ? Wtf were "the Jews" supposed to "learn" from the Holocaust ?
PLAYER57832 wrote:ahunda wrote: There are lessons to be learned from the Holocaust, but those are for all of humanity. And those lessons do not include to use the Holocaust as a comparison, whenever you want to "criticise" or discredit a policy you disagree with.
Seems like I have learned a good many more lessons of tolerance than you. That you cannot even discuss the great harm that Israel IS perpetuating today without claiming it is somehow equivalent to being a nazis shows how little you really understand of hatred and how it works.
The REAL lesson is he who does not learn from the past will repeat it. Israel is intent on repeating history.
You know, its funny, for all you talked about various killings around the world, how is that you are unaware of the numerous Palestinien deaths.. not to mention the shear deprivation and absolutely horrible conditios they must endure, have endured for decades. All because their grandfathers refused to just turn over land when the Jews came knocking and saying "God gave us this land.. now leave".
PLAYER57832 wrote:That you cannot even discuss the great harm that Israel IS perpetuating today without claiming it is somehow equivalent to being a nazis shows how little you really understand of hatred and how it works.
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