SIX MILLION JEWS

[daddy1gringo]

2: That 1 thing is the usual, "The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."

Uhhh ... no. That's how Israel presents the Palestinian position, not how I presented it and certainly not how the Palestinians themselves view it. Israel has no legal position so their PR agencies in the U.S. tell people that "this is just a centuries old conflict of he said/she said, what can ya do?"

This is not a centuries old conflict, it is only a few decades old. It is not an existential idea of "was it Palestinian or Jewish land," but a question of property rights to individual lots of land - physical houses, land acreage, etc., which were voided.

There is a room of records in both Amman and London that contains actual, physical deeds and house titles issued by the British Mandatory government to individual people that still have universal legality. The owners of that land had eminent domain brought down on their property and were kicked out, without compensation, by the Israeli government.

Do you own a house? If the government showed up tomorrow, told you to move out, that a Ukrainian family needed it, would you want to be paid the full value for your house? Or would you say "sure, no problem - take it!" Palestinians, like most people in the U.S. or France or anywhere in the west, had the bulk of their individual net worth invested in their homes. The entire personal wealth of hundreds of thousands of people was wiped-out, virtually overnight.

Right, that's the slight variation: "I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop." and the other side has their facts and figures to prove their dialectus fizz goop, etc., etc. But once you jettison all the partisan dialectus fizz goop, it's a perfectly equitable plan, like you said.

[saxitoxin]

2: That 1 thing is the usual, "The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."

Uhhh ... no. That's how Israel presents the Palestinian position, not how I presented it and certainly not how the Palestinians themselves view it. Israel has no legal position so their PR agencies in the U.S. tell people that "this is just a centuries old conflict of he said/she said, what can ya do?"

This is not a centuries old conflict, it is only a few decades old. It is not an existential idea of "was it Palestinian or Jewish land," but a question of property rights to individual lots of land - physical houses, land acreage, etc., which were voided.

There is a room of records in both Amman and London that contains actual, physical deeds and house titles issued by the British Mandatory government to individual people that still have universal legality. The owners of that land had eminent domain brought down on their property and were kicked out, without compensation, by the Israeli government.

Do you own a house? If the government showed up tomorrow, told you to move out, that a Ukrainian family needed it, would you want to be paid the full value for your house? Or would you say "sure, no problem - take it!" Palestinians, like most people in the U.S. or France or anywhere in the west, had the bulk of their individual net worth invested in their homes. The entire personal wealth of hundreds of thousands of people was wiped-out, virtually overnight.

Right, that's the slight variation: "I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop." and the other side has their facts and figures to prove their dialectus fizz goop, etc., etc. But once you jettison all the partisan dialectus fizz goop, it's a perfectly equitable plan, like you said.

I'm sorry but you don't understand and are simply out of your depth. This is not a battle of two sides fighting over an historic idea of homeland. The PLO/PLA support property rights of all pre-1900 residents of Palestine, both Jewish and Arab.

There is 99% support of this position. The 1% who don't support it are the Zionist politicos and their constituents - the thousands of Ukrainian meth-heads who showed up in the last few years screaming they were secular Jews and willing to join the IDF if they could get a welfare check (most of whom weren't even circumcised). Every single President since Johnson has switched positions after they've left office to support the Palestinian view - even George Bush).

[BigBallinStalin]

I read the article about Bush, but I couldn't confirm that he stated:

"I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."

Anyway, I never knew. It's an interesting turn around.


Sax, do you have a list of the other presidents changing their minds about this issue?
(so that I can easily read them all, instead of spending 20 min googling around).

[saxitoxin]

I read the article about Bush, but I couldn't confirm that he stated:

"I have facts and figures to PROVE that The side I like is the TRUE rightful inhabitants, and is all beneficent angels and persecuted women and children who just want a home, while those other guys are a bunch of torturers and murderers, bla, bla, dialectus fizz goop."

Anyway, I never knew. It's an interesting turn around.


Sax, do you have a list of the other presidents changing their minds about this issue?
(so that I can easily read them all, instead of spending 20 min googling around).

The f*ck am I, the reference desk librarian?! OK, I'll look around a bit later. Off the top of my head, Carter said this in his book "Peace Not Apartheid."

Bush, Carter, etc., have to be anti-Palestinian while they're in office because US voters like D1G subscribe to AIPAC misinformation that this is a battle between two ethnic groups, instead of what it is, a battle between the Jews & Arabs who lived there pre-1900 versus the Jews and "Jews" * who moved in last week.

* i.e. If you don't speak Hebrew, have never been inside synagogue, aren't circumcised and your family has lived in eastern Europe for the last 800 years, what "right" do you have to live in Israel over a Palestinian living there right now?

[Crazy Frog]

Here is a good answer I found online--->

kismet
Six million Jews were murdered by the Nazis, and this figure comes from the Nazis themselves, who were meticulous about recording their atrocities.

In 1945, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander, anticipated that someday an attempt would be made to recharacterize the Nazi crimes as propaganda and took steps against it:

“ The same day I saw my first horror camp. It was near the town of Gotha. I have never been able to describe my emotional reactions when I first came face to face with indisputable evidence of Nazi brutality and ruthless disregard of every shred of decency. Up to that time I had known about it only generally or through secondary sources. I am certain however, that I have never at any time experienced an equal sense of shock.

I visited every nook and cranny of the camp because I felt it my duty to be in a position from then on to testify at first hand about these things in case there ever grew up at home the belief or assumption that "the stories of Nazi brutality were just propaganda". Some members of the visiting party were unable to go through with the ordeal. I not only did so but as soon as I returned to Patton's headquarters that evening I sent communications to both Washington and London, urging the two governments to send instantly to Germany a random group of newspaper editors and representative groups from the national legislatures. I felt that the evidence should be immediately placed before the American and the British publics in a fashion that would leave no room for cynical doubt."

Denials of the Holocaust have been regularly promoted by various Arab leaders and in various media throughout the Middle East. Newspapers funded by the Saudi Arabian government routinely deny the existence of the Holocaust, or downplay its significance. Individuals from the Syrian government, as well as the Palestinian political group Hamas have recently published Holocaust denial statements.

In August 2002, the Zayed Center for Coordination and Follow-up, an Arab League think-tank whose Chairman, Sultan Bin Zayed Al Nahayan, served as Deputy Prime Minister of the United Arab Emirates, promoted a Holocaust denial symposium in Abu Dhabi. Hamas leaders have also promoted Holocaust denial; Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi held that the Holocaust never occurred, that Zionists were behind the action of Nazis, and that Zionists funded Nazism. A press release by Hamas in April 2000 decried "the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis."

Holocaust denial has also been resisted by prominent intellectual figures in the Arab world; in 2001, an outcry led by Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish, Lebanese writer Elias Khoury and others brought about the cancellation of a conference the Holocaust denial organization Institute for Historical Review had planned to hold in Beirut.

In 2005 the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood leader, Mohammed Mahdi Akef, denounced what he called "the myth of the Holocaust" in defending Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's denial of the Holocaust.

According to the Associated Press, "Ignorance and even denial of the Holocaust is widespread in Palestinian society
Source(s):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

[Crazy Frog]

Isee that they have removed the wiki Link or changed it.. here is a Link that is valid at this time... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

[2dimes]

Now I agree the Ukrainians are important to the discussion here somewhat but...

They are almost a separate and additional issue that clouds things and another layer that won't be properly resolved. They have created yet another claim, "But I did what was asked, I deserve..."

[Woodruff]

The Jews are one of the foundation stones of proof that the Bible is inspired by God. They are a chosen race that that can never be destroyed. It is through them that the Jewish Messiah came into the world 2,000 year ago and in the near future (during the battle of Armageddon) their Messiah whom they rejected the first time will return to save them from extinction.

Jeremiah 31:35-37

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The history of "The Wandering Jew" is one of persecution throughout the church age in country after country. The fact that they have been preserved as a separate race while being scattered around the world and having no country to call their own for 2500 years is beyond human comprehension.

I grew up in the South during the civil rights movement and saw first hand the hatred of the Jewish people. The Ku Klux Klan hated them more than they did the Black race and charged them with trying to destroy the White race through interracial marriages while keeping themselves separate, similar to what Hitler did.

Although out numbered a 100 to 1 there is no power on earth that will destroy modern day Israel and woe be to anyone who tries.

The religiously overboard are always good for a chuckle.

[2dimes]

Well, it seems odd doesn't it? More than once they have been threatened with extinction.

A group kills 6 million of them. Meticulously records it since they are planning to wipe out every last one. Several decades later people argue about it with some going so far that they say, "6million? That can't be right." all the way down to out right denial.

What can you tell us about some of the much more recent genocides like the Kurds?

[BigBallinStalin]

The who? The what? Never happened, 2dimes.

[2dimes]

Well yeah. I heard some other guys were killed in that skirmish, don't know any numbers.

[Woodruff]

Well, it seems odd doesn't it? More than once they have been threatened with extinction.

A group kills 6 million of them. Meticulously records it since they are planning to wipe out every last one. Several decades later people argue about it with some going so far that they say, "6million? That can't be right." all the way down to out right denial.

What can you tell us about some of the much more recent genocides like the Kurds?

Well, I was in Rwanda near the end of that one, for instance...

[2dimes]

I'm not suggesting your personal knowledge is lacking. I find it strange that so many pretty large scale genocides are seemingly forgotten by society as a whole. Yet so many people keep wanting to discuss Israel. Often either to down play things or exaggerate them.

[Symmetry]

I'm not suggesting your personal knowledge is lacking. I find it strange that so many pretty large scale genocides are seemingly forgotten by society as a whole. Yet so many people keep wanting to discuss Israel. Often either to down play things or exaggerate them.

Who would you point to as an example of those things being discussed in a balanced way?

[Crazy Frog]

I'm not suggesting your personal knowledge is lacking. I find it strange that so many pretty large scale genocides are seemingly forgotten by society as a whole. Yet so many people keep wanting to discuss Israel. Often either to down play things or exaggerate them.

Who would you point to as an example of those things being discussed in a balanced way?

This would start to cover the subject... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

[2dimes]

Who would you point to as an example of those things being discussed in a balanced way?

I'm not sure it's possible to discuss genocide in a balanced way. If you found someone who could you would have to make sure no one else could over hear the conversation.

I don't know if I can discuss the holocaust without emotion. I don't have access to absolute facts that I trust completely. What's the real number of Jewish people killed, 6 million even?

I am often surprise by people that have do not even have basic knowledge of many other more recent genocides. They can't be blamed though. No one talks about them.

Bring up something like Pol Pot. I couldn't tell you what country he was in without looking it up. Many people will ask, "Who?" or at best say, " Sounds familiar.."

[Baron Von PWN]

Who would you point to as an example of those things being discussed in a balanced way?

I'm not sure it's possible to discuss genocide in a balanced way. If you found someone who could you would have to make sure no one else could over hear the conversation.

I don't know if I can discuss the holocaust without emotion. I don't have access to absolute facts that I trust completely. What's the real number of Jewish people killed, 6 million even?

I am often surprise by people that have do not even have basic knowledge of many other more recent genocides. They can't be blamed though. No one talks about them.

Bring up something like Pol Pot. I couldn't tell you what country he was in without looking it up. Many people will ask, "Who?" or at best say, " Sounds familiar.."

It was Cambodia.

[Crazy Frog]

i know of some Christians in pakistan that are constant fear of the Muslim rampages... Genocide could happen on any given weekend if the whim strikes... then there is Sudan... oh and we should not forget the Slaughter of the Karen up in Burma...
Genocide is a bleak part of Human Nature.

Hiding your Sins is also a gimme.

[BigBallinStalin]

Six million, five hundred, twenty-five thousand, six hundred Jews were sitting in a tree.

[ooge]

incorrect so I deleted it.

[AslanTheKing]

The Jewish history goes way back before almost 1000 B.C


Jewish religion was before christanity, followed by islam
( and all this 3 religions have comparison between them)

assyrians owned that area, babylonians, persians, romans

1480 , after constantiople fell, the ottomans reigned in that area until WW 1,
and after british and french played a part in creating what is today
anyhow- in the ottoman area , jewish were safer than in other european countrys
( jews have been discriminated even in the past)

( in USA the british and french played part too, but thats a different article or thread)

after WW2, the state Israel exists
the religion of Judaism ( is that correct?)
of course exists much longer, all before the bible

but it was not only jews living in the same area,
the jews have been in danger in the roman empire time

they had to survive , and did the best to do so, became very wealthy
and kept to themselves ( like a clan, a tribe would do so)
(what a smart moneysystem

now , we have the year 2013, and the state israel is acknowledged with all its rights
living in an area where there is no peace, and will no peace
were talking about problems , starting 3000 years ago, and havent been solved
since its in nobodys interest to solve the problem, how ?
u cant, there is no solution to the problem today

today its the palestinians who try to survive
( but they have not been as smart , as the jews have been in the past.....)

we ll see what the issue with syria will bring us to , the future will tell

going now back to the real topic
holocaust

ugly things happened during WW2
( not only to jews)

it doesnt matter if there was 6, 5 , 4, 3 , 2, 1 million jews killed

it is sad enough, what humans did to humans ( and still do)

and that the jews "play" the holocaust card
well, why shouldnt they, it is only 70 years ago, this happened

yes, its a small country ( and maybe controll the whole world - especially >USA, all about money?)

money rules, money is power

when does WW3 start?
and if, whos interest is behind?

there is nothing u can do to change it,

unless u get circumsiced, and become jewish today
and then when everybody is jewish
then humans will find another reason to kill each other

my message, its not about jews
the human race , thats us, we kill this world, we kill ourselves

we want to play god
but god will not play with us
so much to come

we will get there step by step
and when we get there
somebody will build a temple,
and we will start again
to search for god

respect the holocaust victims, dont forget it
conspiracy theories
yes they exist
but still, alot of people have been harmed and unbelievable tragedy has happened

Peace for jews, christians , moslems
and everybody on this planet
(if u want peace)