Benghazi - Massive Coverup

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Discussions Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Benghazi - Massive Coverup

Postby Phatscotty on Sun May 12, 2013 11:43 pm

Lot of back n forth going on about Benghazi, Libya. Ron Paul's voice is hardly heard anymore, but I think we need it now more than ever.

By Ron Paul

Congressional hearings, White House damage control, endless op-eds, accusations, and defensive denials. Controversy over the events in Benghazi last September took center stage in Washington and elsewhere last week. However, the whole discussion is again more of a sideshow. Each side seeks to score political points instead of asking the real questions about the attack on the US facility, which resulted in the death of US Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans.

Republicans smell a political opportunity over evidence that the Administration heavily edited initial intelligence community talking points about the attack to remove or soften anything that might reflect badly on the president or the State Department.

Are we are supposed to be shocked by such behavior? Are we supposed to forget that this kind of whitewashing of facts is standard operating procedure when it comes to the US government?

Democrats in Congress have offered the even less convincing explanation for Benghazi, that somehow the attack occurred due to Republican sponsored cuts in the security budget at facilities overseas. With a one trillion dollar military budget, it is hard to take this seriously.

It appears that the Administration scrubbed initial intelligence reports of references to extremist Islamist involvement in the attacks, preferring to craft a lie that the demonstrations were a spontaneous response to an anti-Islamic video that developed into a full-out attack on the US outpost.

Who can blame the administration for wanting to shift the focus? The Islamic radicals who attacked Benghazi were the same people let loose by the US-led attack on Libya. They were the rebels on whose behalf the US overthrew the Libyan government. Ambassador Stevens was slain by the same Islamic radicals he personally assisted just over one year earlier.

But the Republicans in Congress also want to shift the blame. They supported the Obama Administration’s policy of bombing Libya and overthrowing its government. They also repeated the same manufactured claims that Gaddafi was “killing his own people” and was about to commit mass genocide if he were not stopped. Republicans want to draw attention to the President’s editing talking points in hopes no one will notice that if the attack on Libya they supported had not taken place, Ambassador Stevens would be alive today.
Neither side wants to talk about the real lesson of Benghazi: interventionism always carries with it unintended consequences. The US attack on Libya led to the unleashing of Islamist radicals in Libya. These radicals have destroyed the country, murdered thousands, and killed the US ambassador. Some of these then turned their attention to Mali which required another intervention by the US and France.

Previously secure weapons in Libya flooded the region after the US attack, with many of them going to Islamist radicals who make up the majority of those fighting to overthrow the government in Syria. The US government has intervened in the Syrian conflict on behalf of the same rebels it assisted in the Libya conflict, likely helping with the weapons transfers. With word out that these rebels are mostly affiliated with al Qaeda, the US is now intervening to persuade some factions of the Syrian rebels to kill other factions before completing the task of ousting the Syrian government. It is the dizzying cycle of interventionism.

The real lesson of Benghazi will not be learned because neither Republicans nor Democrats want to hear it. But it is our interventionist foreign policy and its unintended consequences that have created these problems, including the attack and murder of Ambassador Stevens. The disputed talking points and White House whitewashing are just a sideshow.


http://www.the-free-foundation.org/tst5-13-2013.html
Last edited by Phatscotty on Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dukasaur wrote:You can save yourself a lot of angst if you turn off CNN.

Image
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
SoC Training Adviser
 
Posts: 1728
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm
Medals: 86
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (5)
General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10) Training Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (11) General Contribution (2)

Re: Benghazi

Postby warmonger1981 on Sun May 12, 2013 11:53 pm

Pretty much sums up America's main problem. Intreventionalism. Thats why most of the world aint to happy with the U.S.A.
User avatar
Lieutenant warmonger1981
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: ST.PAUL
Medals: 56
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (3) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (12)

Re: Benghazi

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 13, 2013 1:12 am

warmonger1981 wrote:Pretty much sums up America's main problem. Intreventionalism. Thats why most of the world aint to happy with the U.S.A.


Indeed. It's one thing when an ally is attacked or perhaps if a particular situation appears to be explosive enough to affect us significantly in some way, such as financial centers or other economic prop. It's another when we insert ourselves into situations we really shouldn't be involved in simply for the purpose of nation-building or fighting communism or whatever.

Or if we must intervene...at least if we'd intervene in non-military ways (food aid, peace talks, etc), we might not be single-handedly creating so many of our eventual enemies.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 3:02 am

Yet after the Lockerbie flight everyone was frustrated that the US at the time refused to go murder Moammar.

Now that they are just concentrating on taking out the perceived "bad guys" that are at the root of things like the gulf war etc. people are still complaining.

Would Libya have been better addressed by a decade of war?

I'm curious about what is going on there now but I'm probably not going to go take a look.
User avatar
Corporal 2dimes
 
Posts: 3748
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Just out for a rip!
Medals: 6
Standard Achievement (1) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)

Re:

Postby Dukasaur on Mon May 13, 2013 11:28 am

A lot of different issues in one post.
2dimes wrote:Yet after the Lockerbie flight everyone was frustrated that the US at the time refused to go murder Moammar.

"Everyone" is a big word. Yes, there were a lot of people (and I will shamefacedly admit that at the time, I was one of them) advocated the idea of taking him out by force. I don't think it was the majority view. Plenty of other people preferred to let the rule of law operate, and/or to rein in Quadhaffi's support of terrorists through diplomatic or economic means.
Now that they are just concentrating on taking out the perceived "bad guys" that are at the root of things like the gulf war etc. people are still complaining
.
If they wanted to take out the bad guys at the root of the gulf war, there would be drone strikes at places like 5959 Las Colinas Boulevard, Irving, TX and 5 Houston Center, Houston, TX.

Oh, you mean the guys on the other side who participated? Well, there's certainly that, but since they are now being killed by secretly planned drone strikes and never get their day in court, it's really hard to judge how many of the condemned men are guilty and how many are in fact innocent.

2dimes wrote:Would Libya have been better addressed by a decade of war?

Way back in primary school, one of my teachers taught me that "two wrongs don't make a right." It's a rule that's never steered me wrong. Was Quadhaffi an evil asshole who deserved to die? Of course he was. Did that make it right for NATO to foment a civil war, in which many innocent people died, and which will ultimately result in some other evil asshole rising to power? No, it did not.

None of the endless stirring of the pot in these Middle East countries makes sense. Not morally, nor strategically, nor fiscally. Evil assholes are overthrown, thousands die in the process, trillions of dollars are wasted, and more evil assholes rise to power. Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan nor Libya nor Syria has made sense, unless you take the view that:
http://www.swans.com/library/art8/xxx083.html
War Is Peace
by George Orwell
Excerpt of his novel, "1984"


(...)

The war, therefore, if we judge it by the standards of previous wars, is merely an imposture. It is like the battles between certain ruminant animals whose horns are set at such an angle that they are incapable of hurting one another. But though it is unreal it is not meaningless. It eats up the surplus of consumable goods, and it helps to preserve the special mental atmosphere that a hierarchical society needs. War, it will be seen, is now a purely internal affair. In the past, the ruling groups of all countries, although they might recognize their common interest and therefore limit the destructiveness of war, did fight against one another, and the victor always plundered the vanquished. In our own day they are not fighting against one another at all. The war is waged by each ruling group against its own subjects, and the object of the war is not to make or prevent conquests of territory, but to keep the structure of society intact. The very word "war," therefore, has become misleading. It would probably be accurate to say that by becoming continuous war has ceased to exist. The peculiar pressure that it exerted on human beings between the Neolithic Age and the early twentieth century has disappeared and has been replaced by something quite different. The effect would be much the same if the three superstates, instead of fighting one another, should agree to live in perpetual peace, each inviolate within its own boundaries. For in that case each would still be a self-contained universe, freed forever from the sobering influence of external danger. A peace that was truly permanent would be the same as a permanent war. This -- although the vast majority of Party members understand it only in a shallower sense -- is the inner meaning of the Party slogan: WAR IS PEACE.



"1984," George Orwell, Signet Classic, ISBN: 0451512189, March 1969 reissue, p. 164 (originally published by Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc., 1949).

If you accept that our leaders are as evil as the others, and that the above is, in fact, their basic strategy, then and only then does the Middle East start to make sense.
User avatar
Lieutenant Dukasaur
Head Socialite
Head Socialite
 
Posts: 9461
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
Medals: 125
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (18)
General Achievement (13) Clan Achievement (5) Training Achievement (2) Challenge Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (31)

Re: Re: Benghazi

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 13, 2013 11:35 am

Dukasaur wrote:
2dimes wrote:Now that they are just concentrating on taking out the perceived "bad guys" that are at the root of things like the gulf war etc. people are still complaining
.

If they wanted to take out the bad guys at the root of the gulf war, there would be drone strikes at places like 5959 Las Colinas Boulevard, Irving, TX and 5 Houston Center, Houston, TX.


Indeed.

Dukasaur wrote:Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan nor Libya nor Syria has made sense


I'm going to quibble a bit. I agree regarding Iraq, Libya and Syria. But I do feel that our actions in Afghanistan were justified. I also believe we badly fumbled our opportunity to improve the situation while we were there, however.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 11:46 am

If one of those locations is for Jr I'm very dissapointed in you two for ignoring the fact that his Dad was fighting with Mr. Hussein before anyone thought of placing him in the puppet position of potus.
User avatar
Corporal 2dimes
 
Posts: 3748
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Just out for a rip!
Medals: 6
Standard Achievement (1) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)

Re:

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 13, 2013 11:51 am

2dimes wrote:If one of those locations is for Jr I'm very dissapointed in you two for ignoring the fact that his Dad was fighting with Mr. Hussein before anyone thought of placing him in the puppet position of potus.


While that is true, his dad had the foresight to actually just accomplish the mission of kicking Iraq out of Kuwait and coming back home. I actually don't fault his dad for Iraq in that regard, as I would also consider that to be a justified action, given the threat it posed to our oil supplies.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 12:00 pm

Yeah, and that's when "everyone" which is to say, me and possibly duk would have rather George Sr. sent a seal team in to do what Jr. did.

I'm open to the probability that Obamer did it since I'm on the phone.
User avatar
Corporal 2dimes
 
Posts: 3748
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Just out for a rip!
Medals: 6
Standard Achievement (1) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)

Re: Benghazi

Postby ooge on Mon May 13, 2013 12:08 pm

The only part of Ron Pauls Ideology that I agee with. Its sad to think a lot of past interventions were done to protect some corporations interests.right now the US navy protects shipping lanes it seems to me China benefits greatly from this,why not charge them a fee?
Image
User avatar
Captain ooge
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:31 am
Location: under a bridge
Medals: 87
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (3) Polymorphic Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (4)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (4) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Bot Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (10) Clan Achievement (1) Challenge Achievement (2)

Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 12:13 pm

Two reasons.
Rather wealthy Americans have huge interests in "China", people of walmart reap much benifit also. I would suggest very few of us are not benefitting.

Thanks and Go Navy!
User avatar
Corporal 2dimes
 
Posts: 3748
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Just out for a rip!
Medals: 6
Standard Achievement (1) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)

Re:

Postby Dukasaur on Mon May 13, 2013 12:15 pm

2dimes wrote:If one of those locations is for Jr I'm very dissapointed in you two for ignoring the fact that his Dad was fighting with Mr. Hussein before anyone thought of placing him in the puppet position of potus.

Actually, the two locations I gave were the HQs of Exxon and Haliburton.

While the Bushes are indubitably evil men, they are just two men among many. And if I did wish harm to Bush senior, it would be for his far greater crime in subverting the Reagan administration. Bush played Wormtongue to Reagan's Theoden, gradually purging the libertarians on Reagan's team, replacing them with mainstream Corpublicans, whispering lies in the old man's ear, censoring his sources of information, until eventually the principled man was broken and brought to heel.

But I suppose that's another story, and off-topic. Or is it? For indeed the Benghazi story does begin with Locherbie and the Reagan/BushSr. bombing of Benghazi.
User avatar
Lieutenant Dukasaur
Head Socialite
Head Socialite
 
Posts: 9461
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
Medals: 125
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (18)
General Achievement (13) Clan Achievement (5) Training Achievement (2) Challenge Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (31)

Re:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon May 13, 2013 12:19 pm

2dimes wrote:Yet after the Lockerbie flight everyone was frustrated that the US at the time refused to go murder Moammar.

Now that they are just concentrating on taking out the perceived "bad guys" that are at the root of things like the gulf war etc. people are still complaining.

Would Libya have been better addressed by a decade of war?


Most likely not--especially if the US is centrally planning its development (e.g. as it does in AFG and Iraq, which economically have been failures).
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Re: Benghazi

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon May 13, 2013 12:20 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
2dimes wrote:Now that they are just concentrating on taking out the perceived "bad guys" that are at the root of things like the gulf war etc. people are still complaining
.

If they wanted to take out the bad guys at the root of the gulf war, there would be drone strikes at places like 5959 Las Colinas Boulevard, Irving, TX and 5 Houston Center, Houston, TX.


Indeed.

Dukasaur wrote:Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan nor Libya nor Syria has made sense


I'm going to quibble a bit. I agree regarding Iraq, Libya and Syria. But I do feel that our actions in Afghanistan were justified. I also believe we badly fumbled our opportunity to improve the situation while we were there, however.


I'd want to agree with you on AFG, but given the certainty of the underlined, I wouldn't advocate for war. It is to be expected that the US cannot transport democracy or improve countries by invasion (and/or foreign aid).
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Postby 2dimes on Mon May 13, 2013 12:29 pm

Shame on me for not even looking into Syria far enough to have basic knowledge.
Dukasaur wrote:While the Bushes are indubitably evil men, they are just two men among many. And if I did wish harm to Bush senior, it would be for his far greater crime in subverting the Reagan administration. Bush played Wormtongue to Reagan's Theoden, gradually purging the libertarians on Reagan's team, replacing them with mainstream Corpublicans, whispering lies in the old man's ear, censoring his sources of information, until eventually the principled man was broken and brought to heel.

But I suppose that's another story, and off-topic. Or is it? For indeed the Benghazi story does begin with Locherbie and the Reagan/BushSr. bombing of Benghazi.
Well not to say I have not wandered off the path because that's one of my things. The main point of this one that I've more or less been talking about in my opinion is.

I (sometimes written as everyone) wanted someone to go kill Saddam, Moarmmar, Bin Laden, etc. Now that we (the US&A, I'm not even part of the actuall gang so much as a coat tail rider) are doing exactly that there's lots of questions about that. I don't know if Moammar should have been murdered/exicuted/whatever but I prefer it to the way Iraq was handled.

I honestly don't know enough very personal things about either of the Georgies to say they are evil. If not they are taking the blame for many things some evil people have done and or caused to be done.
User avatar
Corporal 2dimes
 
Posts: 3748
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Just out for a rip!
Medals: 6
Standard Achievement (1) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)

Next

Return to Whose Forum is It Anyway?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BunnRee, fadedpsychosis, Gamefreakguy and 5 guests

Login