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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:39 pm

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:i'll let these go for $239.95 per unit in a case of 12. i can't gaurantee this price much longer so hurry and place your order.

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woohoo this one will work! So, you want 239.95 each huh? Let's put that plan together and bang it out brah! So.....what are we gonna need in order to start selling these units for 239.95? And what is that after taxes....and then I'm sure we need some special permits and licenses and insurance right? Guessing they don't let just anyone walk in and start selling medical devices/materials etc. How many permits and licenses might we need and how much is the insurance per month, and how is that going to change our price? OK, so let's get that number, and then we need to open a tax ID account an office and manufacturing, and maybe a little transportation costs, and that's a few employees, which means we need to be bonded, unemployment insurance, matching social security contributions, health insurance, and we have to swallow the bills for hiring and their paid time off and 401k contributions and any errors. Without doing a couple hours of homework (or bumping into someone who is familiar with this industry's regulations and costs) who wants to take a stab at guessing how much that bag of saltwater goes for?
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:14 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
WILLIAMS5232 wrote:i'll let these go for $239.95 per unit in a case of 12. i can't gaurantee this price much longer so hurry and place your order.

Image


woohoo this one will work! So, you want 239.95 each huh? Let's put that plan together and bang it out brah! So.....what are we gonna need in order to start selling these units for 239.95? And what is that after taxes....and then I'm sure we need some special permits and licenses and insurance right? Guessing they don't let just anyone walk in and start selling medical devices/materials etc. How many permits and licenses might we need and how much is the insurance per month, and how is that going to change our price? OK, so let's get that number, and then we need to open a tax ID account an office and manufacturing, and maybe a little transportation costs, and that's a few employees, which means we need to be bonded, unemployment insurance, matching social security contributions, health insurance, and we have to swallow the bills for hiring and their paid time off and 401k contributions and any errors. Without doing a couple hours of homework (or bumping into someone who is familiar with this industry's regulations and costs) who wants to take a stab at guessing how much that bag of saltwater goes for?


i'm just selling you a bag of (sterile) saltwater..... i don't care about all the other stuff or what you use it for. do you want a case or not?
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:26 pm

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
WILLIAMS5232 wrote:i'll let these go for $239.95 per unit in a case of 12. i can't gaurantee this price much longer so hurry and place your order.

Image


woohoo this one will work! So, you want 239.95 each huh? Let's put that plan together and bang it out brah! So.....what are we gonna need in order to start selling these units for 239.95? And what is that after taxes....and then I'm sure we need some special permits and licenses and insurance right? Guessing they don't let just anyone walk in and start selling medical devices/materials etc. How many permits and licenses might we need and how much is the insurance per month, and how is that going to change our price? OK, so let's get that number, and then we need to open a tax ID account an office and manufacturing, and maybe a little transportation costs, and that's a few employees, which means we need to be bonded, unemployment insurance, matching social security contributions, health insurance, and we have to swallow the bills for hiring and their paid time off and 401k contributions and any errors. Without doing a couple hours of homework (or bumping into someone who is familiar with this industry's regulations and costs) who wants to take a stab at guessing how much that bag of saltwater goes for?


i'm just selling you a bag of (sterile) saltwater..... i don't care about all the other stuff or what you use it for. do you want a case or not?


Oh, you mean a free market? So we don't have to jump through all those hoops and cut through all that red tape? Yes I'll buy from you then, but only one case, so I can find out your recipe, and then I'm gonna start my own business selling these for $199.99!

This will be the greatest thing since 6 minute abs
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:16 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Anyone want to take a crack at explaining how and why this happens?

Image


The New York Times took a stab at that.


They didn't do a very good job. Very disappointed in that article.

While I obviously don't know details, it seems to me that there is probably some combination of "who cares, insurance will pay" and rent-seeking to a certain extent.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:44 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Anyone want to take a crack at explaining how and why this happens?

Image


The New York Times took a stab at that.


They didn't do a very good job. Very disappointed in that article.

While I obviously don't know details, it seems to me that there is probably some combination of "who cares, insurance will pay" and rent-seeking to a certain extent.


Agreed.

e.g.

It is no secret that medical care in the United States is overpriced. But as the tale of the humble IV bag shows all too clearly, it is secrecy that helps keep prices high: hidden in the underbrush of transactions among multiple buyers and sellers, and in the hieroglyphics of hospital bills.

At every step from manufacturer to patient, there are confidential deals among the major players, including drug companies, purchasing organizations and distributors, and insurers. These deals so obscure prices and profits that even participants cannot say what the simplest component of care actually costs, let alone what it should cost.

And that leaves taxpayers and patients alike with an inflated bottom line and little or no way to challenge it.



OHHH!! BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA!!

You could write the same nonsense about shoes. I bet they're real cheap at the Chinese shoe factory in some remote village--if you buy 10,000 instead of 1 in order to get the low price.

But still even if the price of that shoe is $1.00, it's an exchange that's nonexistent until Evil Middlemen bring the product to you.


Proponents of this system say it saves hospitals billions in economies of scale. Critics say the middlemen not only take their cut, but they have a strong interest in keeping most prices high and competition minimal.


Gee, any seller of anything would desire higher prices and less competition, but does that happen? Well, it depends...

The top three group-purchasing organizations now handle contracts for more than half of all institutional medical supplies sold in the United States,


Is that competitive enough? It's like the possible merger mentioned in lootifer's thread: can we know if this is competitive enough given the competition-reducing effects of price controls and government regulations?

[insert irrelevant emotional appeals]



HealthFirst, the Medicaid H.M.O. It paid $119 to settle the grandmotherā€™s $2,168 bill, without specifying how much of the payment was for the IV. It paid $66.50 to the doctor, who had billed $606.


Those kind of arrangments always interest me. Doctor says: One million dollars. I say, "No!," but no haggling occurs. Insurance company says, "eh, 100 Saxbucks." Doctor: "oh okay."

They probably put out high prices because they might profit from some people unwilling to bargain it down.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:41 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Cuz resources (capital and labor) are expended in the process of distributing and retailing it from the plant to the retailer?

Then, cost of production != final price. The price is determined by supply and demand, where demand is influenced by consumers competing against consumers, and suppliers competing against suppliers.

There is fixed pricing, but it might not be related to IV saline bags. Doctors (and/or lawyers) use the Medicare/Medicaid listed prices to estimate a price of particular medical procedures, so the government-controlled pricing could be the cause of high prices in hospitals. I wouldn't be surprised.

WAY off, but typical "off the cuff" "its OK to just blame government pricing for our problems" response.


The REAL answer is first, someone exaggerated or misread the price on BOTH ends. While plain saline might be $1, an IV bag, plus the needle and so forth to administer it are more than $1.00, even wholesale ( Amazon starts at around $9.60 for an EMPTY bag). No way you can get one for just $1.00 as claimed!

Per the price charged --- that, too seems to be an exaggeration. Any industry can have overcharges/mismanagement, etc. To claim your exaggerations are "normal" is decietful at best. That said, you WILL expect to pay a good deal more for a saline bag in a hospital than on the open market. A saline bag doesn't cost close to $800 at my hospital, but it does cost more than retail. As has been pointed out (and ignored) repeatedly to both you and Phattscotty, ALL items cost more at a hospital because a hospital is not a retail store. You are not just buying products there, you are paying for a SERVICE. You pay for the doctor (sometimes nurse or other practitioner) to specify you need the item, a nurse to put in the line, a bed (along with linens that need to be washed), etc, etc, etc. Add in liability insurance costs for the employees and facility, etc, etc... and you will NEVER get a product at a hospital for its "true" open retail cost. Its not anything do with government stacking or people not worrying about costs overruns (which is NOT to say that cost overruns don't ALSO happen, just the claim that this is somehow normal is plain wrong!). If you want retail, GO TO A RETAIL STORE, not the hospital. Hospitals are to provide critical care to people, not to see IVs or aspirine!
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:47 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I am asking people to cut back on their standard of living, so that they can improve the lives of others.

That's exactly what the Federal government is doing to people. .

No, its what industry keeps doing because their first and primary "obligation" is to feed stockholder desires, NOT to ensure that workers are paid more than the barest minimum they can get away with or even sustaining infrastructure needed to support the business (far easier to just move!).

You can point fingers at the government all you want, but WE ARE the government. There is no magic pool of money that can provide services without payment. Demanding that taxes are continually cut, that no one have to pay for anything and claiming that any use of services is abuse is why we are in the mess we are in.

The"greatest generation" got us where we are by BUILDING and INVESTING, by promoting education for ALL, and decent wages for ALL. People who MAKE wages can pay taxes to pay for services and infrastructure. You want all the benefits of living in America but refuse any responsibility for its maintenance.

YOU are the abuser!
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:55 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Cuz resources (capital and labor) are expended in the process of distributing and retailing it from the plant to the retailer?

Then, cost of production != final price. The price is determined by supply and demand, where demand is influenced by consumers competing against consumers, and suppliers competing against suppliers.

There is fixed pricing, but it might not be related to IV saline bags. Doctors (and/or lawyers) use the Medicare/Medicaid listed prices to estimate a price of particular medical procedures, so the government-controlled pricing could be the cause of high prices in hospitals. I wouldn't be surprised.

WAY off, but typical "off the cuff" "its OK to just blame government pricing for our problems" response.


The REAL answer is first, someone exaggerated or misread the price on BOTH ends. While plain saline might be $1, an IV bag, plus the needle and so forth to administer it are more than $1.00, even wholesale ( Amazon starts at around $9.60 for an EMPTY bag). No way you can get one for just $1.00 as claimed!

Per the price charged --- that, too seems to be an exaggeration. Any industry can have overcharges/mismanagement, etc. To claim your exaggerations are "normal" is decietful at best. That said, you WILL expect to pay a good deal more for a saline bag in a hospital than on the open market. A saline bag doesn't cost close to $800 at my hospital, but it does cost more than retail. As has been pointed out (and ignored) repeatedly to both you and Phattscotty, ALL items cost more at a hospital because a hospital is not a retail store. You are not just buying products there, you are paying for a SERVICE. You pay for the doctor (sometimes nurse or other practitioner) to specify you need the item, a nurse to put in the line, a bed (along with linens that need to be washed), etc, etc, etc. Add in liability insurance costs for the employees and facility, etc, etc... and you will NEVER get a product at a hospital for its "true" open retail cost. Its not anything do with government stacking or people not worrying about costs overruns (which is NOT to say that cost overruns don't ALSO happen, just the claim that this is somehow normal is plain wrong!). If you want retail, GO TO A RETAIL STORE, not the hospital. Hospitals are to provide critical care to people, not to see IVs or aspirine!


...


"cost of production != final price."

!=

"typical "off the cuff" "its OK to just blame government pricing for our problems" response"
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:19 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Cuz resources (capital and labor) are expended in the process of distributing and retailing it from the plant to the retailer?

Then, cost of production != final price. The price is determined by supply and demand, where demand is influenced by consumers competing against consumers, and suppliers competing against suppliers.

There is fixed pricing, but it might not be related to IV saline bags. Doctors (and/or lawyers) use the Medicare/Medicaid listed prices to estimate a price of particular medical procedures, so the government-controlled pricing could be the cause of high prices in hospitals. I wouldn't be surprised.

WAY off, but typical "off the cuff" "its OK to just blame government pricing for our problems" response.


The REAL answer is first, someone exaggerated or misread the price on BOTH ends. While plain saline might be $1, an IV bag, plus the needle and so forth to administer it are more than $1.00, even wholesale ( Amazon starts at around $9.60 for an EMPTY bag). No way you can get one for just $1.00 as claimed!

Per the price charged --- that, too seems to be an exaggeration. Any industry can have overcharges/mismanagement, etc. To claim your exaggerations are "normal" is decietful at best. That said, you WILL expect to pay a good deal more for a saline bag in a hospital than on the open market. A saline bag doesn't cost close to $800 at my hospital, but it does cost more than retail. As has been pointed out (and ignored) repeatedly to both you and Phattscotty, ALL items cost more at a hospital because a hospital is not a retail store. You are not just buying products there, you are paying for a SERVICE. You pay for the doctor (sometimes nurse or other practitioner) to specify you need the item, a nurse to put in the line, a bed (along with linens that need to be washed), etc, etc, etc. Add in liability insurance costs for the employees and facility, etc, etc... and you will NEVER get a product at a hospital for its "true" open retail cost. Its not anything do with government stacking or people not worrying about costs overruns (which is NOT to say that cost overruns don't ALSO happen, just the claim that this is somehow normal is plain wrong!). If you want retail, GO TO A RETAIL STORE, not the hospital. Hospitals are to provide critical care to people, not to see IVs or aspirine!


...


"cost of production != final price."

!=

"typical "off the cuff" "its OK to just blame government pricing for our problems" response"

Cost of production is not the final price and the cost of production was WAY underestimated.

Besides, hospitals are not suppliers. They are service providers. You pay for the services, so pretending that production costs have anything to do with the final cost is stupidity, not honesty.

And yeah, YOU, at least, are smart enough to know this is true, if you were not so bent on proving that everything is about standard profit-rules economics.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:04 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Cuz resources (capital and labor) are expended in the process of distributing and retailing it from the plant to the retailer?

Then, cost of production != final price. The price is determined by supply and demand, where demand is influenced by consumers competing against consumers, and suppliers competing against suppliers.

There is fixed pricing, but it might not be related to IV saline bags. Doctors (and/or lawyers) use the Medicare/Medicaid listed prices to estimate a price of particular medical procedures, so the government-controlled pricing could be the cause of high prices in hospitals. I wouldn't be surprised.

WAY off, but typical "off the cuff" "its OK to just blame government pricing for our problems" response.


The REAL answer is first, someone exaggerated or misread the price on BOTH ends. While plain saline might be $1, an IV bag, plus the needle and so forth to administer it are more than $1.00, even wholesale ( Amazon starts at around $9.60 for an EMPTY bag). No way you can get one for just $1.00 as claimed!

Per the price charged --- that, too seems to be an exaggeration. Any industry can have overcharges/mismanagement, etc. To claim your exaggerations are "normal" is decietful at best. That said, you WILL expect to pay a good deal more for a saline bag in a hospital than on the open market. A saline bag doesn't cost close to $800 at my hospital, but it does cost more than retail. As has been pointed out (and ignored) repeatedly to both you and Phattscotty, ALL items cost more at a hospital because a hospital is not a retail store. You are not just buying products there, you are paying for a SERVICE. You pay for the doctor (sometimes nurse or other practitioner) to specify you need the item, a nurse to put in the line, a bed (along with linens that need to be washed), etc, etc, etc. Add in liability insurance costs for the employees and facility, etc, etc... and you will NEVER get a product at a hospital for its "true" open retail cost. Its not anything do with government stacking or people not worrying about costs overruns (which is NOT to say that cost overruns don't ALSO happen, just the claim that this is somehow normal is plain wrong!). If you want retail, GO TO A RETAIL STORE, not the hospital. Hospitals are to provide critical care to people, not to see IVs or aspirine!


...


"cost of production != final price."

!=

"typical "off the cuff" "its OK to just blame government pricing for our problems" response"

Cost of production is not the final price and the cost of production was WAY underestimated.

Besides, hospitals are not suppliers. They are service providers. You pay for the services, so pretending that production costs have anything to do with the final cost is stupidity, not honesty.

And yeah, YOU, at least, are smart enough to know this is true, if you were not so bent on proving that everything is about standard profit-rules economics.


I just showed you that your first post ignores something which we obviously agree about (re: underlined), and that your description of my post is incorrect...

RE: bold, citation needed.

Hospitals supply services; therefore, they are suppliers which provide products in the form of labor services. Supplier = Producer = Seller. Demander = Consumer = Buyer. Basic economics fits pretty well here...

RE: italicized, not sure where you're going with that one.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Night Strike on Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:41 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I am asking people to cut back on their standard of living, so that they can improve the lives of others.

That's exactly what the Federal government is doing to people. .

No, its what industry keeps doing because their first and primary "obligation" is to feed stockholder desires, NOT to ensure that workers are paid more than the barest minimum they can get away with or even sustaining infrastructure needed to support the business (far easier to just move!).

You can point fingers at the government all you want, but WE ARE the government. There is no magic pool of money that can provide services without payment. Demanding that taxes are continually cut, that no one have to pay for anything and claiming that any use of services is abuse is why we are in the mess we are in.

The"greatest generation" got us where we are by BUILDING and INVESTING, by promoting education for ALL, and decent wages for ALL. People who MAKE wages can pay taxes to pay for services and infrastructure. You want all the benefits of living in America but refuse any responsibility for its maintenance.

YOU are the abuser!


If we were the government, we wouldn't have Obamacare. Or many of the other laws and regulations that are on the books, the latter of which were never even accountable to the people who are elected.

If there's no magic pool of money to provide services without payment, where is the money going to come from to pay for increases in minimum wage, massive premium increases for healthcare, etc.?
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:46 pm

Obamacare Users Discover their Policies are Useless Scraps of Paper

Terri Durheim and her family now have health insurance, thanks to Obamacare. What they don't have are local doctors and hospitals who will take it. This worries the Enid, Okla., resident since she has a teenage son with a serious heart condition. They now have to find a pediatric cardiologist in Oklahoma City, more than an hour away. Like Durheim, many Americans who've enrolled on the Obamacare exchanges are realizing they have access to a relatively limited set of doctors and hospitals. In many areas, the largest hospitals are not participating and many doctors are not accepting the coverage. That's by design. To keep premiums down for silver and bronze plans, insurers narrowed the networks of doctors and hospitals, often excluding the priciest and most specialized providers.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/19/news/ec ... ?hpt=hp_t3


Obama gets rich as people die in the streets.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Symmetry on Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:00 pm

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I am asking people to cut back on their standard of living, so that they can improve the lives of others.

That's exactly what the Federal government is doing to people. .

No, its what industry keeps doing because their first and primary "obligation" is to feed stockholder desires, NOT to ensure that workers are paid more than the barest minimum they can get away with or even sustaining infrastructure needed to support the business (far easier to just move!).

You can point fingers at the government all you want, but WE ARE the government. There is no magic pool of money that can provide services without payment. Demanding that taxes are continually cut, that no one have to pay for anything and claiming that any use of services is abuse is why we are in the mess we are in.

The"greatest generation" got us where we are by BUILDING and INVESTING, by promoting education for ALL, and decent wages for ALL. People who MAKE wages can pay taxes to pay for services and infrastructure. You want all the benefits of living in America but refuse any responsibility for its maintenance.

YOU are the abuser!


If we were the government, we wouldn't have Obamacare. Or many of the other laws and regulations that are on the books, the latter of which were never even accountable to the people who are elected.

If there's no magic pool of money to provide services without payment, where is the money going to come from to pay for increases in minimum wage, massive premium increases for healthcare, etc.?


Probably from one of the world's largest economies. I hear that historically massive economies tend to generate money pretty well.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:57 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I am asking people to cut back on their standard of living, so that they can improve the lives of others.

That's exactly what the Federal government is doing to people. .

No, its what industry keeps doing because their first and primary "obligation" is to feed stockholder desires, NOT to ensure that workers are paid more than the barest minimum they can get away with or even sustaining infrastructure needed to support the business (far easier to just move!).

You can point fingers at the government all you want, but WE ARE the government. There is no magic pool of money that can provide services without payment. Demanding that taxes are continually cut, that no one have to pay for anything and claiming that any use of services is abuse is why we are in the mess we are in.

The"greatest generation" got us where we are by BUILDING and INVESTING, by promoting education for ALL, and decent wages for ALL. People who MAKE wages can pay taxes to pay for services and infrastructure. You want all the benefits of living in America but refuse any responsibility for its maintenance.

YOU are the abuser!


If we were the government, we wouldn't have Obamacare. Or many of the other laws and regulations that are on the books, the latter of which were never even accountable to the people who are elected.

If there's no magic pool of money to provide services without payment, where is the money going to come from to pay for increases in minimum wage, massive premium increases for healthcare, etc.?


Probably from one of the world's largest economies. I hear that historically massive economies tend to generate money pretty well.


You mean the economy that outputs less than its federal government's debt and pays the highest corporate tax rates in the world while also bearing the burden of thousands of new regulations every year? Nope, no money there.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Symmetry on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:22 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I am asking people to cut back on their standard of living, so that they can improve the lives of others.

That's exactly what the Federal government is doing to people. .

No, its what industry keeps doing because their first and primary "obligation" is to feed stockholder desires, NOT to ensure that workers are paid more than the barest minimum they can get away with or even sustaining infrastructure needed to support the business (far easier to just move!).

You can point fingers at the government all you want, but WE ARE the government. There is no magic pool of money that can provide services without payment. Demanding that taxes are continually cut, that no one have to pay for anything and claiming that any use of services is abuse is why we are in the mess we are in.

The"greatest generation" got us where we are by BUILDING and INVESTING, by promoting education for ALL, and decent wages for ALL. People who MAKE wages can pay taxes to pay for services and infrastructure. You want all the benefits of living in America but refuse any responsibility for its maintenance.

YOU are the abuser!


If we were the government, we wouldn't have Obamacare. Or many of the other laws and regulations that are on the books, the latter of which were never even accountable to the people who are elected.

If there's no magic pool of money to provide services without payment, where is the money going to come from to pay for increases in minimum wage, massive premium increases for healthcare, etc.?


Probably from one of the world's largest economies. I hear that historically massive economies tend to generate money pretty well.


You mean the economy that outputs less than its federal government's debt and pays the highest corporate tax rates in the world while also bearing the burden of thousands of new regulations every year? Nope, no money there.


There's no money in the US economy? Shh, don't tell anyone.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:29 pm

saxitoxin wrote:Obamacare Users Discover their Policies are Useless Scraps of Paper

Terri Durheim and her family now have health insurance, thanks to Obamacare. What they don't have are local doctors and hospitals who will take it. This worries the Enid, Okla., resident since she has a teenage son with a serious heart condition. They now have to find a pediatric cardiologist in Oklahoma City, more than an hour away. Like Durheim, many Americans who've enrolled on the Obamacare exchanges are realizing they have access to a relatively limited set of doctors and hospitals. In many areas, the largest hospitals are not participating and many doctors are not accepting the coverage. That's by design. To keep premiums down for silver and bronze plans, insurers narrowed the networks of doctors and hospitals, often excluding the priciest and most specialized providers.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/19/news/ec ... ?hpt=hp_t3


Obama gets rich as people die in the streets.


From further down in the article:


That's what happened to Durheim, who owns a small appliance store with her husband. She called her doctors and hospitals, who said they take Blue Cross Blue Shield. So she picked a silver preferred plan with a low deductible for $328 a month.

Her mistake, she acknowledged, was that she didn't look specifically at the provider network for "preferred" plans on the Blue Cross website, instead searching the network for all tiers Blue Cross offers. So she didn't realize that these providers don't take her plan until she wanted to use it.


She has health insurance now when she didn't before. Saying that she is "dying in the streets" is callous and unjustified.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:44 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:She has health insurance now when she didn't before.


The impetus of this boondoggle was to give people healthcare, not to give people pieces of paper with "insurance" written across the top.

To say "you got your fucking insurance, now shut up and be grateful" when said insurance can't be used to access the healthcare system to save this poor woman's dying son is cruel and bordering on the sociopathic.

Health insurance that can't be used to get healthcare. Next for Obama: car insurance for the blind, life insurance for the dead, homeowner's insurance for the homeless. A cut of each premium going to line Big O's pockets.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:45 pm

Symmetry wrote:There's no money in the US economy? Shh, don't tell anyone.


Not what I said you dope. Learn to read. I was clearly referring to the inability to pay for all of these new and arbitrary government mandated expenses; I never said there was no money at all.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Night Strike on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:She has health insurance now when she didn't before. Saying that she is "dying in the streets" is callous and unjustified.


But there ARE people who have been kicked off their plans while being treated for cancer, etc. that their Obamacare mandated plans don't cover. Obamacare itself is callous and unjustified.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:47 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:She has health insurance now when she didn't before.


The impetus of this boondoggle was to get people healthcare, not to get people equitable loss transfer contracts (commonly called "insurance").

To say "you got your fucking insurance, now shut up" when said insurance can't be used to access the healthcare system is cruel and bordering on the sociopathic.

Health insurance that can't be used to get healthcare. Next for Obama: car insurance for the blind, life insurance for the dead, homeowner's insurance for the homeless. A cut of each premium going to line Big O's pockets.


Are you being intentionally obtuse? It states quite clearly that she picked a plan that gave her more limited options in exchange for a cheaper price. (Evidently she did not intend to...)
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:52 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:She has health insurance now when she didn't before.


The impetus of this boondoggle was to get people healthcare, not to get people equitable loss transfer contracts (commonly called "insurance").

To say "you got your fucking insurance, now shut up" when said insurance can't be used to access the healthcare system is cruel and bordering on the sociopathic.

Health insurance that can't be used to get healthcare. Next for Obama: car insurance for the blind, life insurance for the dead, homeowner's insurance for the homeless. A cut of each premium going to line Big O's pockets.


Are you being intentionally obtuse? It states quite clearly that she picked a plan that gave her more limited options in exchange for a cheaper price. (Evidently she did not intend to...)


No, it did not say "she did not mean to." You are jumping from "[my] mistake" and filling in the blanks to arrive at the conclusion that will reinforce your worldview. There are numerous reasons she might not have picked a lavish Cadillac plan - the only kind that would let her dying son access the healthcare system - instead of being shoved into Obama's Band Aids & Aspirin plan for the poor. It could be she needed to buy food to keep from starving to death, for instance. Hopefully her son can make it until next year before dying ... I can't believe how dismissive you are of the suffering of your fellow humans. Such unabated greed. Greedy, greedy, greedy, greedy.

    Blue Cross Blue Shield of Oklahoma said that she can upgrade the policy to a "choice" plan, which may cost her between $50 and $100 more a month, through healthcare.gov. But the site will not let her switch, and the exchange representatives said she'll have to wait until next year.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:54 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:She has health insurance now when she didn't before.


The impetus of this boondoggle was to get people healthcare, not to get people equitable loss transfer contracts (commonly called "insurance").

To say "you got your fucking insurance, now shut up" when said insurance can't be used to access the healthcare system is cruel and bordering on the sociopathic.

Health insurance that can't be used to get healthcare. Next for Obama: car insurance for the blind, life insurance for the dead, homeowner's insurance for the homeless. A cut of each premium going to line Big O's pockets.


Are you being intentionally obtuse? It states quite clearly that she picked a plan that gave her more limited options in exchange for a cheaper price. (Evidently she did not intend to...)


No, it did not say "she did not mean to." You are filling in the blanks to arrive at the conclusion that will reinforce your worldview. There are numerous reasons she might not have picked a lavish Cadillac plan - the only kind that would let her dying son access the healthcare system, instead of being shoved into the Obama pauper's / Band Aids & Aspirin plan. It could be she needed to buy food to keep from starving to death, for instance. Hopefully her son can make it until next year ... I can't believe how dismissive you are of the suffering of your fellow humans. Such unabated greed. Greedy, greedy, greedy, greedy.

    Blue Cross Blue Shield of Oklahoma said that she can upgrade the policy to a "choice" plan, which may cost her between $50 and $100 more a month, through healthcare.gov. But the site will not let her switch, and the exchange representatives said she'll have to wait until next year.


And, literally the next sentence:

"A Blue Cross spokeswoman said the insurer will help her switch plans now."

What's your theory for why she found out that the site won't let her switch? She was just fucking around on healthcare.gov for a lark? It has nothing to do with the fact that she wants the treatment option near her and will pay more for that?

Also, on the topic of "filling in the blanks to arrive at the conclusion that will reinforce your worldview," way to turn "serious heart condition" into "her dying son."
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:01 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:She has health insurance now when she didn't before.


The impetus of this boondoggle was to get people healthcare, not to get people equitable loss transfer contracts (commonly called "insurance").

To say "you got your fucking insurance, now shut up" when said insurance can't be used to access the healthcare system is cruel and bordering on the sociopathic.

Health insurance that can't be used to get healthcare. Next for Obama: car insurance for the blind, life insurance for the dead, homeowner's insurance for the homeless. A cut of each premium going to line Big O's pockets.


Are you being intentionally obtuse? It states quite clearly that she picked a plan that gave her more limited options in exchange for a cheaper price. (Evidently she did not intend to...)


No, it did not say "she did not mean to." You are filling in the blanks to arrive at the conclusion that will reinforce your worldview. There are numerous reasons she might not have picked a lavish Cadillac plan - the only kind that would let her dying son access the healthcare system, instead of being shoved into the Obama pauper's / Band Aids & Aspirin plan. It could be she needed to buy food to keep from starving to death, for instance. Hopefully her son can make it until next year ... I can't believe how dismissive you are of the suffering of your fellow humans. Such unabated greed. Greedy, greedy, greedy, greedy.

    Blue Cross Blue Shield of Oklahoma said that she can upgrade the policy to a "choice" plan, which may cost her between $50 and $100 more a month, through healthcare.gov. But the site will not let her switch, and the exchange representatives said she'll have to wait until next year.


And, literally the next sentence:

"A Blue Cross spokeswoman said the insurer will help her switch plans now."


And, literally the previous sentence:

"the exchange representatives said she'll have to wait until next year"

Obama chose to let her stay on her Band Aid & Aspirin pauper's plan. Now, it's great Blue Cross is letting her switch after Obama denied her; unfortunately, not everyone gets a personal call from a CNN reporter. I just wish you would have some more compassion and empathy for these people who are suffering on Obama's paupers plans because Obama has determined they don't earn enough to be worthy of quality healthcare. Your position seems to be that, if some poor people die because they're relegated to a pauper's hospital, no one will miss them. We need to reserve quality healthcare for those who "deserve" it, you argue.
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:03 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:She has health insurance now when she didn't before.


The impetus of this boondoggle was to get people healthcare, not to get people equitable loss transfer contracts (commonly called "insurance").

To say "you got your fucking insurance, now shut up" when said insurance can't be used to access the healthcare system is cruel and bordering on the sociopathic.

Health insurance that can't be used to get healthcare. Next for Obama: car insurance for the blind, life insurance for the dead, homeowner's insurance for the homeless. A cut of each premium going to line Big O's pockets.


Are you being intentionally obtuse? It states quite clearly that she picked a plan that gave her more limited options in exchange for a cheaper price. (Evidently she did not intend to...)


No, it did not say "she did not mean to." You are filling in the blanks to arrive at the conclusion that will reinforce your worldview. There are numerous reasons she might not have picked a lavish Cadillac plan - the only kind that would let her dying son access the healthcare system, instead of being shoved into the Obama pauper's / Band Aids & Aspirin plan. It could be she needed to buy food to keep from starving to death, for instance. Hopefully her son can make it until next year ... I can't believe how dismissive you are of the suffering of your fellow humans. Such unabated greed. Greedy, greedy, greedy, greedy.

    Blue Cross Blue Shield of Oklahoma said that she can upgrade the policy to a "choice" plan, which may cost her between $50 and $100 more a month, through healthcare.gov. But the site will not let her switch, and the exchange representatives said she'll have to wait until next year.


And, literally the next sentence:

"A Blue Cross spokeswoman said the insurer will help her switch plans now."


And, literally the previous sentence:

"the exchange representatives said she'll have to wait until next year"

Obama chose to let her stay on her Band Aid & Aspirin pauper's plan. Now, it's great Blue Cross is letting her switch after Obama denied her; unfortunately, not everyone gets a personal call from a CNN reporter. I just wish you would have some more compassion and empathy for these people who are suffering on Obama's paupers plans because Obama has determined they don't earn enough to be worthy of quality healthcare. Your position seems to be that, if some poor people die because they're relegated to a pauper's hospital, no one will miss them. We need to reserve quality healthcare for those who "deserve" it, you argue.


How the hell can you infer all that from me pointing out that you misinterpreted this article?
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Re: ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

Postby beezer on Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:04 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:She has health insurance now when she didn't before. Saying that she is "dying in the streets" is callous and unjustified.


But there ARE people who have been kicked off their plans while being treated for cancer, etc. that their Obamacare mandated plans don't cover. Obamacare itself is callous and unjustified.


Obviously, those situations are all lies & the people who report them are liars. You need to listen to Harry Reid more and dismiss the liars.
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