Poll on Racism

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Is it just as racist to SUPPORT someone based on race; as it is to OPPOSE someone based on race

yes
195
82%
no
43
18%
 
Total votes : 238

Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:22 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Ok PS, there are a couple of things that jump up at me from the links and your/the bloggers comments on the situation; some are obvious, some not so much:

- Sammy is none too smart (obvious)
- His main point is not that he voted for Obama because he is black but the [fallaciously founded] argument that two wrongs make a right: rephrasing... "dem der white folk wont vote for a black man so ima cancel dem out and not vote for a white man, herpa-dee-derp".

Samual is an idiot, but it doesnt make him racist for supporting a black man (your premise).


He's not racist for supporting a black man. He is racist for making his decision based solely on skin color.


If that was true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running?

Perhaps they couldn't make up their minds because both Obama and Herman Cain were black? (...)

My point is that even if you can quote someone out of context saying "I voted for him because he's black," it doesn't follow that the only reason which influenced his decision was the politician's skin color. People aren't known for articulating everything which influences their decision-making.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:24 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Ok PS, there are a couple of things that jump up at me from the links and your/the bloggers comments on the situation; some are obvious, some not so much:

- Sammy is none too smart (obvious)
- His main point is not that he voted for Obama because he is black but the [fallaciously founded] argument that two wrongs make a right: rephrasing... "dem der white folk wont vote for a black man so ima cancel dem out and not vote for a white man, herpa-dee-derp".

Samual is an idiot, but it doesnt make him racist for supporting a black man (your premise).


He's not racist for supporting a black man. He is racist for making his decision based solely on skin color.


If that was true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running?

Perhaps they couldn't make up their minds because both Obama and Herman Cain were black? (...)

My point is that even if you can quote someone out of context saying "I voted for him because he's black," it doesn't follow that the only reason which influenced his decision was the politician's skin color. People aren't known for articulating everything which influences their decision-making.


Well, he also said "I don't give a shit about his message..." so there's that, and a few other things....
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby patches70 on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:25 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Ok PS, there are a couple of things that jump up at me from the links and your/the bloggers comments on the situation; some are obvious, some not so much:

- Sammy is none too smart (obvious)
- His main point is not that he voted for Obama because he is black but the [fallaciously founded] argument that two wrongs make a right: rephrasing... "dem der white folk wont vote for a black man so ima cancel dem out and not vote for a white man, herpa-dee-derp".

Samual is an idiot, but it doesnt make him racist for supporting a black man (your premise).


He's not racist for supporting a black man. He is racist for making his decision based solely on skin color. I think that is as clean as a match to being racist as it gets. If you say you will only vote for someone who is black, you also say that you are not supporting someone else because they are white/purple/yellow/green......NOT BLACK!

I understand this is a "progressive" attitude, which makes total sense when it comes to the issue of racism. I also understand sometimes the racism is so blatant that you can't even see it until after you give it some thought.


It's a prejudice. Is Samuel Jackson a racist? I have no idea, but he's clearly prejudice. More power to him.

If Samuel Jackson said "Yeah, I dated her because she's black. I didn't date that other chick because she's white. I date people who look like me." That's not racist either. It's clearly preferential and prejudice. In Jackson's case, given the choice between a voting for a black guy and a white guy he clearly preferred the black guy "because he looks like me". It's a prejudice and is quite natural in people.
There isn't really enough information as to whether or not he's a racist. Who did he vote for between Bush vs Kerry? Or Bush vs Gore? You think he might have actually voted for one of them white guys? He might not have voted, I have no idea. He only talked about Obama's election.

If he said he hoped Obama would start rounding up and arresting people who were white (because they are white) and absconding with their property and given it to black folks, then I'd be inclined to say he's racist. You know, kinda like what happened in South Africa after the ANC took over. That was some racist stuff, following in the footsteps of other racists before them.

Samuel Jackson is just an idiot and in America where we are "supposed" to be free, means we can be idiots if we so choose, so long as we as individuals do not trample on the rights of others. Jackson voting for Obama because Obama is black does no harm to anyone's rights or life. He could have voted for Obama because he had the exact number of letters in his particular name. He could vote for Obama for any reason he wished, it makes no difference at all. And I don't see him quoted as wanting any harm to be done to specifically white people. Or the rights of anyone, of any color, to be trampled or denied.

That's what freedom means. It encompasses all that is good in people and all that is bad or ignorant. Prejudice suckers like Jackson are worthy of ridicule. Real racists are worthy of public floggings and/or executions.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:27 am

Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Ok PS, there are a couple of things that jump up at me from the links and your/the bloggers comments on the situation; some are obvious, some not so much:

- Sammy is none too smart (obvious)
- His main point is not that he voted for Obama because he is black but the [fallaciously founded] argument that two wrongs make a right: rephrasing... "dem der white folk wont vote for a black man so ima cancel dem out and not vote for a white man, herpa-dee-derp".

Samual is an idiot, but it doesnt make him racist for supporting a black man (your premise).


He's not racist for supporting a black man. He is racist for making his decision based solely on skin color.


If that was true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running?

Perhaps they couldn't make up their minds because both Obama and Herman Cain were black? (...)

My point is that even if you can quote someone out of context saying "I voted for him because he's black," it doesn't follow that the only reason which influenced his decision was the politician's skin color. People aren't known for articulating everything which influences their decision-making.


Well, he also said "I don't give a shit about his message..." so there's that, and a few other things....


People aren't known for articulating everything which influences their decision-making.

Why didn't Sammy J fully support Herman Cain earlier? He was also black, so why not?
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:28 am

patches70 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Ok PS, there are a couple of things that jump up at me from the links and your/the bloggers comments on the situation; some are obvious, some not so much:

- Sammy is none too smart (obvious)
- His main point is not that he voted for Obama because he is black but the [fallaciously founded] argument that two wrongs make a right: rephrasing... "dem der white folk wont vote for a black man so ima cancel dem out and not vote for a white man, herpa-dee-derp".

Samual is an idiot, but it doesnt make him racist for supporting a black man (your premise).


He's not racist for supporting a black man. He is racist for making his decision based solely on skin color. I think that is as clean as a match to being racist as it gets. If you say you will only vote for someone who is black, you also say that you are not supporting someone else because they are white/purple/yellow/green......NOT BLACK!

I understand this is a "progressive" attitude, which makes total sense when it comes to the issue of racism. I also understand sometimes the racism is so blatant that you can't even see it until after you give it some thought.


It's a prejudice. Is Samuel Jackson a racist? I have no idea, but he's clearly prejudice. More power to him.

If Samuel Jackson said "Yeah, I dated her because she's black. I didn't date that other chick because she's white. I date people who look like me." That's not racist either. It's clearly preferential and prejudice. In Jackson's case, given the choice between a voting for a black guy and a white guy he clearly preferred the black guy "because he looks like me". It's a prejudice and is quite natural in people.
There isn't really enough information as to whether or not he's a racist. Who did he vote for between Bush vs Kerry? Or Bush vs Gore? You think he might have actually voted for one of them white guys? He might not have voted, I have no idea. He only talked about Obama's election.

If he said he hoped Obama would start rounding up and arresting people who were white (because they are white) and absconding with their property and given it to black folks, then I'd be inclined to say he's racist. You know, kinda like what happened in South Africa after the ANC took over. That was some racist stuff, following in the footsteps of other racists before them.

Samuel Jackson is just an idiot and in America where we are "supposed" to be free, means we can be idiots if we so choose, so long as we as individuals do not trample on the rights of others. Jackson voting for Obama because Obama is black does no harm to anyone's rights or life. He could have voted for Obama because he had the exact number of letters in his particular name. He could vote for Obama for any reason he wished, it makes no difference at all. And I don't see him quoted as wanting any harm to be done to specifically white people. Or the rights of anyone, of any color, to be trampled or denied.

That's what freedom means. It encompasses all that is good in people and all that is bad or ignorant. Prejudice suckers like Jackson are worthy of ridicule. Real racists are worthy of public floggings and/or executions.


Freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, and "real racists are worthy of public floggings and/or executions."

Wow.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby Mr_Adams on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:37 am

pimpdave wrote:
Mr_Adams wrote:
pimpdave wrote:I like how this thread conveniently resurfaces after Herman Cain is out of contention.


I like how that fact is completely irrelevant.


No it's not.


This thread was active when Cain was in the race, the thread is active after Cain was out of the race. there was a dead period, wherein Cain dropped out of the race, with no correlation of dates or topics discussed. There is, quite frankly, no correlation between this thread and Herman Cain's candidacy, therefore, your comment is entirely irrelevant.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:37 am

Well, I'm just coming from the common sense on the street, and something Obama has said in the past, something about his white grandma getting all nervous when a black person was walking towards her, and he defined that in a racist way. She supposedly made her decision based only on the color of the person's skin. This was around the time Eric Holder said this country needed to have a healthy debate about racism or something, and that many people were cowards for some reason...

Also, I am only speaking from my belief (and MLK's belief) that a person should not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character, so of course when I see someone like Jackson saying "I judge by the color of the skin, and 'I don't give a shit' about the content of their character", I am going to point it out.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby john9blue on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:40 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:If that was true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running?


because blacks as a group vote democrat? because they get a disproportionate amount of handouts from democrats?
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:40 am

Mr_Adams wrote:
pimpdave wrote:
Mr_Adams wrote:
pimpdave wrote:I like how this thread conveniently resurfaces after Herman Cain is out of contention.


I like how that fact is completely irrelevant.


No it's not.


This thread was active when Cain was in the race, the thread is active after Cain was out of the race. there was a dead period, wherein Cain dropped out of the race, with no correlation of dates or topics discussed. There is, quite frankly, no correlation between this thread and Herman Cain's candidacy, therefore, your comment is entirely irrelevant.


This thread was born 2 years before anyone even knew who Herman Cain was. And there is only one way I could possibly understand PD's comment, and that is if someone is completely obsessed with skin color and thinks it's the reason for everything.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:43 am

oh yeah, here it is. "typical white person"

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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:45 am

john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:If that was true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running?


because blacks as a group vote democrat? because they get a disproportionate amount of handouts from democrats?


Those are stereotypes, but at least we're getting closer to showing everyone that people do not vote for Obama only because he's black.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:47 am

And patches, I understand and respect what you are saying by pointing out the difference between prejudice, bigotry, and racism. We just have different pov's on Obama and from where and how and when we grew up.

My school experience was extremely diverse. I played every sport there was and slept over at peoples houses and been to people's weddings and competed and had friends and enemies of every kind. There is a fine line, and whether which one of us is more correct or less, I'm sure we can agree a lot of people are playing right on that thin line so it can be hard to tell.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:49 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:If that was true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running?


because blacks as a group vote democrat? because they get a disproportionate amount of handouts from democrats?


Those are stereotypes, but at least we're getting closer to showing everyone that people do not vote for Obama only because he's black.


What are the demographics of Obama voters?
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:56 am

Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:If that was true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running?


because blacks as a group vote democrat? because they get a disproportionate amount of handouts from democrats?


Those are stereotypes, but at least we're getting closer to showing everyone that people do not vote for Obama only because he's black.


What are the demographics of Obama voters?


Oh wow! You're not dodging me? What gives?!

Here's some posts you missed:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=94454&start=435#p3596290

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=94454&start=420#p3596280
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby john9blue on Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:08 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Those are stereotypes, but at least we're getting closer to showing everyone that people do not vote for Obama only because he's black.


those are facts, not stereotypes.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby Woodruff on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:02 am

john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:If that was true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running?


because blacks as a group vote democrat? because they get a disproportionate amount of handouts from democrats?


You guys have a lot of excuses. But none of them seems to answer the point of Jackson's ACTUAL statement...
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby john9blue on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:12 am

Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:If that was true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running?


because blacks as a group vote democrat? because they get a disproportionate amount of handouts from democrats?


You guys have a lot of excuses. But none of them seems to answer the point of Jackson's ACTUAL statement...


i wasn't even talking about jackson, you guys brought that up. i don't care what some hollywood star thinks, most of them are too far removed from reality for their opinions to matter.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:09 pm

Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:If that was true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running?


because blacks as a group vote democrat? because they get a disproportionate amount of handouts from democrats?


You guys have a lot of excuses. But none of them seems to answer the point of Jackson's ACTUAL statement...


Jackson said 2 things which are contradictory. How can one be trusted over the other?

show



My point is that even if you can quote someone out of context saying "I voted for him because he's black," it doesn't follow that the only reason which influenced his decision was the politician's skin color. People aren't known for articulating everything which influences their decision-making.

If the belief "I voted for Obama only because he was black" is true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running? (Because their voting decision is influence more than the president's skin color. I don't know how I can make this any clearer).
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby ViperOverLord on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:32 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
If the belief "I voted for Obama only because he was black" is true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running? (Because their voting decision is influence more than the president's skin color. I don't know how I can make this any clearer).


95-97% (depending on the poll/source) of blacks voted for Obama (2008 - 13% turnout increase)
86-90% (depending on the poll/source) of blacks voted for Kerry (2004)

In an interview with Ebony, Jackson said, "I voted for Barack because he's black. 'Cuz that's why other folks vote for other people, because they look like them ... That's American politics, pure and simple. [Obama's] message didn't mean [bleep] to me."
\

- Many blacks were motivated to vote based on race for Obama.
- Many blacks who would not have shown up to vote otherwise, did show up and vote for Obama.

Clearly the best combination of a candidate for a black person is Democrat and black. I'm not sure why you would make the assertion if race was not a factor then they would be screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain (in a primary in which most blacks don't participate). That's silly. Especially since they already have their preferred combination.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:38 pm

ViperOverLord wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
If the belief "I voted for Obama only because he was black" is true, then why weren't African Americans screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain when he was running? (Because their voting decision is influence more than the president's skin color. I don't know how I can make this any clearer).


95-97% (depending on the poll/source) of blacks voted for Obama (2008 - 13% turnout increase)
86-90% (depending on the poll/source) of blacks voted for Kerry (2004)

In an interview with Ebony, Jackson said, "I voted for Barack because he's black. 'Cuz that's why other folks vote for other people, because they look like them ... That's American politics, pure and simple. [Obama's] message didn't mean [bleep] to me."
\

- Many blacks were motivated to vote based on race for Obama.
- Many blacks who would not have shown up to vote otherwise, did show up and vote for Obama.

Clearly the best combination of a candidate for a black person is Democrat and black. I'm not sure why you would make the assertion if race was not a factor then they would be screaming so much about voting for Herman Cain (in a primary in which most blacks don't participate). That's silly. Especially since they already have their preferred combination.


I didn't make that assertion. My position has been that skin color is not the only factor.

Phatscotty thinks otherwise: "He is racist for making his decision based solely on skin color. "
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=94454&start=435#p3596284

But Sammy J didn't. Why? Because: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=94454&start=450#p3596865

Also, "Jackson said 2 things which are contradictory. How can one be trusted over the other?"
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=94454&start=450#p3596865
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:41 pm

I found that it's more revealing to actually ask people why they voted for Obama--instead of latching onto specific blog posts or news reports while pounding one's chest and screaming "RACISM!!!!!"
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby Neoteny on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:45 pm

Some of my voting considerations in order of importance.

I voted for Obama because he was better than McCain.
I voted for Obama because I thought he was fairly left-leaning.
I voted for Obama because of that shit-eating smirk he does sometimes. I love it. (Bush had a good one too; Clinton's and Bush 1's were lame)
I voted for Obama because I was sick of the current conservative trend of being batshit loons.
I voted for Obama because he was black, to encourage the perception of racial equality in US politics, and to demonstrate that we actually don't trust old white men over everyone else. We've come a long way.

OH NOES NEOS A RACIST HE VOTED HOOSAIN CAUSHES BLACKSS!!1

Obviously we haven't come that far. Should his race be a consideration? No, but until we have minority presidents, and people like Phatscotty stop freaking out about imaginary "reverse discrimination," we will always be in this situation. At some point race won't be an issue, and I can drop that off my list of considerations. But until then, I'm going to give consideration to blacks, women, etc, until conservatives stop flipping their shit. I know, I'm a dreamer.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:51 pm

Neoteny wrote:Some of my voting considerations in order of importance.

I voted for Obama because he was better than McCain.
I voted for Obama because I thought he was fairly left-leaning.
I voted for Obama because of that shit-eating smirk he does sometimes. I love it. (Bush had a good one too; Clinton's and Bush 1's were lame)
I voted for Obama because I was sick of the current conservative trend of being batshit loons.
I voted for Obama because he was black, to encourage the perception of racial equality in US politics, and to demonstrate that we actually don't trust old white men over everyone else. We've come a long way.

OH NOES NEOS A RACIST HE VOTED HOOSAIN CAUSHES BLACKSS!!1

Obviously we haven't come that far. Should his race be a consideration? No, but until we have minority presidents, and people like Phatscotty stop freaking out about imaginary "reverse discrimination," we will always be in this situation. At some point race won't be an issue, and I can drop that off my list of considerations. But until then, I'm going to give consideration to blacks, women, etc, until conservatives stop flipping their shit. I know, I'm a dreamer.


and I'm not the only one....

show
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby ViperOverLord on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:59 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
I didn't make that assertion. My position has been that skin color is not the only factor.



Fair enough. Thank you for the clarification.
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Re: Poll on Racism: Samuel Jackson

Postby Lootifer on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:43 pm

john9blue wrote:
Lootifer wrote:No, and i've discussed the reasons for this earlier in the thread.


link me so i can see how you managed to justify that LOL


viewtopic.php?f=8&t=94454&start=360#p3043710
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