Tournament rule change with no proper announcement

[Donelladan]

I just noticed this rule was modified in April 2022

A.- Revisions, April 14, 2022

1.- The following rule was added to Playing Community-Run Tournaments, section B, point 8:

1.- Exception to the rule: "Throwing games, or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, is forbidden." Since any tournament can be seen as one big game, game play in an individual game that may have been considered "game throwing" may be considered acceptable in a tournament if the actions taken by the player can be reasonably thought to have been able to benefit them in the tournament.
2.- It is not allowed to use this exception to manipulate the main scoreboard of a series of tournaments and/or events.

This should have deserved an announcement post in the tournament section, as far as I can see in this tournament section this was not done.
And it would probably have deserved an announcement section in the main CC announcement section since it is actually a major rule change for tournament

And you should probably have let the C&A team be made aware of that. You changed the rule in April 2022, I found a C&A in July 2022 where a player was warned for this exact offense.
viewtopic.php?f=239&t=238191&p=5253376&hilit=tournament+throwing+suicide#p5253376


So, how can you suddenly change a rule that has been largely debated in C&A in many threads already and was therefore admitted by C&A and known to players ?

Furthermore, fyi, that'll just personally make me stay away of tournament as much as I can.
I was leading a tournament, got 3 games to finish.
In one of them 2nd ranked player is winning, I am winning in the other 2 ( one is fog so we don't know really knowf or sure, one is sunny).
I don't suicide in the game where the 2nd ranked player is winning because I am aware of the "old" rule.
The 2nd player suicide into me in the 2 other games, making me lose tons of points ( 13 player games ) while he also lost both games since he suicided but it was "tournament move".
I finally win the tournament on tie-breaker ruler
But was a fucking nightmare to play 3 games for one month ( 30 round limit and nuclear/zombie game) and just be suicided into two of them on the last round.
Awesome tournament experience.

[Mad777]

The C&A you pointed and if you check the tournament rules in questions, there was a score reset in Round 3, the throwing happened in Round 2 with 48 players remaining and 36 moving, both players were qualified to move on therefore there was no tournament winning condition to found this player’s action acceptable.

This handbook revision was handed to admin before being posted, and approved.
90% of its content was more reformatting and to make it more readable.

The expectations are for member(s) to make themselves aware by checking the handbook as new post is made when there is amendments/revision (the topic icon turns red when new post are made, as any other topic.

[Donelladan]

The C&A you pointed and if you check the tournament rules in questions, there was a score reset in Round 3, the throwing happened in Round 2 with 48 players remaining and 36 moving, both players were qualified to move on therefore there was no tournament winning condition to found this player’s action acceptable.

Even if that's why the player was warned in that C&A thread, it's not said in the C&A, so any other players that would read that C&A wouldn't know that the rule was changed.
And in the OP, the OP doesn't mention the score reset. Clearly OP think, just like me, that throwing game in tournament is forbidden

2022-07-06 16:27:48 - RUTHLESSNESS: You are already leading the tournament, so why should I let you get further ahead?
2022-07-06 16:28:49 - RUTHLESSNESS: So I am supposed to just let you win?
2022-07-06 16:29:50 - TrafalgarLaw01: score resets after this round. so pointless
2022-07-06 16:30:44 - TrafalgarLaw01: and it's kind against the rules to throw a tourney game away as far as i know, i'll fill a report, i'm not sure if it's the case but i feel it is

So no where in that C&A thread there is any mention of the rule change.
The accusion of the C&A says
"The accused are suspected of: Game/Tournament Throwing"
and C&A admin reply with -> has been warned.

But, anyway, even if C&A admin know that the rule has been changed, that is not my main issue of my post here.

First thing is I hope that in the future any kind of such rule change get an announcement, at the very least in the tournament section.
Because that is like a major change of how you play games in a tournaments. And you can't actually expect every player to check the tournament handbook everytime they join a tournament.

[Mad777]

Go back in that C&A and the game link, read the chat as well…

[shoop76]

Don, I agree with you things are still unclear. The tournament directors do not rule on these cases however. Even if it happens in tournaments, it is still the C&A team that come down with a ruling.

I have personally been warned by the C&A team in a ruling that I totally did not agree with. But I think the basics of the rule are. If it is the last couple of games of a tournament you can make sure your closest rival doesn't win a game if it means you will win the tournament. At an earlier stage this is not allowed.

It will remain a subjective matter and will be handled on a case by case basis. Sorry I know this doesn't really clear anything up.

[Donelladan]

Don, I agree with you things are still unclear. The tournament directors do not rule on these cases however. Even if it happens in tournaments, it is still the C&A team that come down with a ruling.

Afaik, C&A can throw a warning, or a ban, or whatever.
But changing the outcome of a tournament is still up to the TD right ?

Therefore, given this rule I am assuming that if I am losing a tournament because a player suicided into me in the last game in order to win the tournament, then it's ok he's going to keep the tournament win, even if he gets a warning from C&A.

I get that's it's a case to case basis, and that there is room to interpretation to a rule.
But it'd much rather the rule of the tournament handbook state just the opposite. Basically that all game rules applied, including game throwing.
Instead of saying, as it does here : all game rules applied except game throwing.
And regardless of whatever the rule says, I'd like to be informed when the rule change to the complete opposite of what it was.

[Lindax]

As far as I know, the rule was there for a long time already, in unwritten form. Many rulings had already been made, based on it. That's why we put it in writing.

Lx

[Donelladan]

As far as I know, the rule was there for a long time already, in unwritten form. Many rulings had already been made, based on it. That's why we put it in writing.

Lx

To my knowledge :
1) A very long time ago, the rule was as it is written now.
2) Then for quite some time, it was forbidden to throw game in tournament, regardless if it helps you to win or not the tournament.
Several C&A case were opened and went this way. I think it actual came out of C&A that it wasn't ok to throw games ( so not sure what was written here in the tournament handbook) but it was pretty clear to people reading and following C&A that throwing tournament game was not ok in any circumstances.
3) Then now we have this rule being written like it is now which contradicts common knowledge from C&A.

[Lindax]

As far as I know, the rule was there for a long time already, in unwritten form. Many rulings had already been made, based on it. That's why we put it in writing.

Lx

To my knowledge :
1) A very long time ago, the rule was as it is written now.
2) Then for quite some time, it was forbidden to throw game in tournament, regardless if it helps you to win or not the tournament.
Several C&A case were opened and went this way. I think it actual came out of C&A that it wasn't ok to throw games ( so not sure what was written here in the tournament handbook) but it was pretty clear to people reading and following C&A that throwing tournament game was not ok in any circumstances.
3) Then now we have this rule being written like it is now which contradicts common knowledge from C&A.

I guess it's the inconsistency you are signaling that made the TD and C&A teams, together with admin, decide to put it in writing.

Lx

[Donelladan]

I am not signaling any inconsistency.
The rule was clearly changed at some point.
Here it is for you, it's when it was changed the first time :
viewtopic.php?f=239&t=225191&start=25#p4985104

At the time it was thought reasonable to play using such tactic, as long as it would help you advance to the next round. Looking at it from this point it would seem that we must now re-evaluate questionable tactics that involves sabotaging games for the purpose of advancement. Mad777 has made a very good point that we must always play fairly at all times and never forget to have good sportsmanship above everything regardless if it is a tournament game or not.

For this report, we are clearing them as we believe that their actions were only swayed by my past ruling from similar cases involving tournament games. However, the pre-existing precedent that this is acceptable in tournament games is now removed. Also, multi-player tribe games are to be reviewed by the tournament team and rules regarding them and acceptable actions will be written.

From this point on, all games, no matter what it is, unless specified, shall be subject to all CC rules. This includes tournament and tribe games.

[shoop76]

The rules for autotournaments and player run tournaments could potentially be different. In player run tournaments the TO has a lot more control of what is and what is not allowed. In this case it should clearly be stated in the specific tourney rules by the TO.

As for the autotournaments it would still be evaluated on a case by case basis by the C&A team. There is a lot of gray area still involved. What happens if you throw more than 1 game? What happens if you do it earlier just so you can advance? I know that C&A has not taken these reports lightly and its a real tight line what is and what isn't allowed.

[Donelladan]

What Lindax and you are saying is a bit contradictory.
he says it's to get rid of the inconsistency that the rule was put in writing.
You says it's still a case by case basis, and there is lot of gray area, which kinda mean we (players) don't know how C&A rule, inconsistency may remain.

And, I kinda like what you're saying shoop, that it'll be handled by C&A on case by case. But then, why write down such a rule if the intention is to let C&A handle it?
Because, regardless of how many "may" are part of the rule, it still clearly says -> exception to the rule "Throwing games is forbidden" if it can benefit you in the tournament

[shoop76]

A.- Revisions, April 14, 2022

1.- The following rule was added to Playing Community-Run Tournaments, section B, point 8:

1.- Exception to the rule: "Throwing games, or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, is forbidden." Since any tournament can be seen as one big game, game play in an individual game that may have been considered "game throwing" may be considered acceptable in a tournament if the actions taken by the player can be reasonably thought to have been able to benefit them in the tournament.
2.- It is not allowed to use this exception to manipulate the main scoreboard of a series of tournaments and/or events.

I didn't write this rule or come up with the rulings. The parts highlighted in red really make it subjective to the person making the ruling. I will discuss with my team and come back with an update.

[shoop76]

Just to update this. There is obviously not a perfect rule for situations like Don mentioned and it will always remain a topic that splits opinion. Some players believe all is fair in tournament games and singling out the strongest players for elimination from the get go is ok (which it is not) while others believe that targeting others should never happen, even if it means it is the last game.

This topic has been discussed by mods in detail before I took over as tournament commissioner. The rule will remain as is. I just remind you, be careful, as any intent on breaking or bending this rule will be dealt with seriously. We want to continue to make the tournament area enjoyable for all.