Clan League Season 2 [PUBLIC Discussion]

[jpcloet]

The final settings are using 7 days.

Clans are asked to fill the games within 1 week. If a clan is late, they will receive a warning the first time. The second time, they will be defaulted for half of the late games (rounded down), and then if it happens a third time, they will be defaulted on all games.

The Clan Directors are making all the games this season, so they will be sent right away, plus given clans are to order them in advance, other than a slow leader, there really is no excuse this time around.

[skillfusniper33]

As well we have the invite system for players now too, so you would just need one player per team to join then they could invite their own team. This will really cut down on the PM sent.

[HardAttack]

The promoting and demoting teams. From league 2 to league 1 and vice versa from league 1 to league 2; 2 teams relegates or promotes directly and best 3rd and worst 3rd play a playoff to stay unchanged or relegate/promote.

Currently, the number of clans are around 20 - 24 which makes 2 league (composed of 10-12 teams) and in each sub divisions A and B. Means a sub league, for ex 1A while having 6 teams inside, 2 direct relegation is too much in my understanding. 2 relegation and 1 play-off.

Spanish Primera League, La Liga has many leagues, however 2 major leagues, they are Primera and Sequnda divisions. Each has not less than 20 teams inside and only 3-4 teams are relegating/promoting. % 15-20. And, the number of teams who win direct promotion/relegation is always kept equal or under of those who win the right to play play-offs.

This is almost same in many european soccer leagues. At this point, i suggest direct relegating team number to be reduced to a number of 1, and the bottom 2nd position in div 1 and the top 2nd position in div 2 to play play offs. In this way, you open the way to % 33 of teams to switch from div a to div b and vice versa instead % 50.

If numbers are going to stay as they are now, then another suggestion is that, please reduce direct promotion/relegation to a number of 1 and let best 2 and 3 positions of div b play playoffs with worst 2 and 3 positions of div A. In other words, please consider giving only 1 direct relegation/promotion instead 2.

Cheers,
H.A.

[HardAttack]

Nemesis has already registered herself in clan league 2, but again here once more

We are of course in.

First Contact : Stroop
Secondary Contact : Hardattack

[Artimis]

On the off chance there was any ambiguity in our stance, I'm posting to confirm that Flame Whores will be entering the fray(both theoretically and verbally! )


Name: Flame Whores

Primary Contact: Artimis

Secondary Contact: ronc8649

[Blitzaholic]

I don't know if I missed this in the outline or not... but PLEASE enact some sort of penalty for games either being set up late or individuals not having their clanmates join games in a timely manor.

This past season we had quite a few problems with this, both with our games being dropped (due to the other team not joining for THAT long!) or other teams sending us their games either one or two weeks late and us having to play two sets of games at the same time.

AGREED

I don't know why it happened, but it almost always happened against IA. I have to give your clan props as you seemed to have had to deal with the most crap. Blitzaholic was a big proponent of joining within a time range.

Given the games will likely be sent out on a Sunday, what makes sense?

I guess a week or 7 days is fair JP, but you can clarify default of game or games on the penalty if they are late? or join on the 8th day for example?

[jpcloet]

If you join late, you get a warning, if you join late again, you lose half the games right away, if you join late a 3rd week, you lose all late games. Default means the other team automatically wins.

[ahunda]

Default means the other team automatically wins.

I hope, we will not see this happen (often). It could seriously skew the results, if a clan is winning games & gaining points that way.

Maybe it would be better to play out the games anyway and only punish the late-joiners with point deduction ?

[jpcloet]

Looking through Season 1, if you take away the late full week miss by the one clan, there were 7 default games over 4 challenges. Not a major issue. Given the tournament rights allow teams to use the game finder on open clan games, it will be easier for the league contacts and the Clan Directors to find the open games.

As the season progresses, I may be posting Clan League Helper tasks to help with things like this and possibly results help and data validation. I have a clan member working on something which might allow a number of people to help out if they choose.

[Hopscotcher]

Sorry If I am dense....... Couple questions here....

1. Who has the tournament rights for creating games? I know I saw this somewhere, but the forums have become soooooo congested.

2. When will a schedule be available? And when will the Season begin? NO PRESSURE! Just curious.

ttfn,
Hopper

[jpcloet]

1. Who has the tournament rights for creating games? I know I saw this somewhere, but the forums have become soooooo congested.

The 2 Clan Directors have tournament rights. jpcloet and Marval

2. When will a schedule be available? And when will the Season begin? NO PRESSURE! Just curious.

Very very soon. I started to post the schedules, but in doing 1A, I noticed a conflict and 2 date issues. I'm done Div 1A&B and just finishing up the formatting on Div 2A&B. You should see them within the next 48 hours. Season starts Sept 6th.

[JRitchie73]

Is this open to any clan? I think the Usual Suspects would be interested in joining in.

[Scott-Land]

I missed a lot of the discussions in CLA-- especially in the private forums so I'll apologize if my questions and concerns have been redundant and repetitive but...

Just noticed this week 1 submission--

Week 2, The Brethren of the Fat Mermaid, Eternal Empire
1,Doubles,Random,Esc,Chained,Sunny
2,Doubles,Random,Esc,Chained,Fog
3,Doubles,Random,No Spoils,Chained,Fog
4,Doubles,Random,Flat,Chained,Fog
5,Triples,Random,Esc,Chained,sunny
6,Triples,Africa,No Spoils,Chained,Fog
7,Quads,Random,Esc,Chained,Sunny
8,Quads,Random,Esc,Chained,Sunny

C'mon Random maps should count as 1 map- 1 selection per season. I don't see it listed more than once in Game Finder nor Start A Game. This clan has chosen it 7 times and threw Africa in for what - good measure ? Theoretically at this pace with 14 weeks, they may and will play repeat maps through out the season unless you keep track of all the random maps and physically keep tabs so that each clan can't repeat maps or have Chip code it or whatever he does.

EDIT: For those of you saying what's the big deal. Clans are spending a lot of time on map and team selections for each week then we're thrown a curve ball, and have to join 7 games in the dark just for 1 clan. Unlike Incand, we're not the elite so we need time to plan.

[Chariot of Fire]

I think selecting Random Maps makes a whole lot of sense given the restrictions placed on selection (max 2 of one map). What the organisers are trying to avoid is for a clan to predetermine a map that it excels at and use it repeatedly. By selecting random a clan has no idea what that map will be - only the settings - and the likelihood of something such as City Mogul coming up more than two times is pretty slim given the vast array of maps.

We (TOFU) are in the middle of a clan war with Dragoons. All 40 maps were random and have been fantastic - no repeats and virtually all on big maps. It's also added an extra element of fun & surprise to see what crops up, so I strongly recommend it.

With the difficulty some people are facing trying to juggle with players, maps and settings due to the constraints in this season's CLA I'd have thought the selection of 'random' would be encouraged. It certainly does the home team no favours so I can't see why anyone would have issue with it.

[DAAAAAAANG]

1. No Freestyle, No Speed, No Beta Maps.
2. Given that a clan will only be making 56 home games and that there are over 100 maps available, plus considering some element of home advantage, no map can be chosen more than twice during the regular season. Maps can be chosen for a 3rd time in the playoffs, but then not again. That means at a minimum, your clan will be using 56/2=28 home maps.
3. Random maps are allowed to be used as much as the home team chooses.
4. Does not have to be fixed teams. Players can play in more than 1 home game and more than 1 away game.

These are the rules that have been posted in the sign-up thread for nearly a month.

Just noticed this week 1 submission--

Week 2, The Brethren of the Fat Mermaid, Eternal Empire
1,Doubles,Random,Esc,Chained,Sunny
2,Doubles,Random,Esc,Chained,Fog
3,Doubles,Random,No Spoils,Chained,Fog
4,Doubles,Random,Flat,Chained,Fog
5,Triples,Random,Esc,Chained,sunny
6,Triples,Africa,No Spoils,Chained,Fog
7,Quads,Random,Esc,Chained,Sunny
8,Quads,Random,Esc,Chained,Sunny

C'mon Random maps should count as 1 map- 1 selection per season. I don't see it listed more than once in Game Finder nor Start A Game. This clan has chosen it 7 times and threw Africa in for what - good measure ? Theoretically at this pace with 14 weeks, they may and will play repeat maps through out the season unless you keep track of all the random maps and physically keep tabs so that each clan can't repeat maps or have Chip code it or whatever he does.

I have assigned each of our clan members participating to pick maps and partners for an equal number of games to be spread out through the season. I have encouraged them to pick random, because of the headache that comes with selecting maps (for our clan and the opponents). One person didn't feel comfortable selecting random as their map, and so they have chosen Africa as the home map for their game. We're not breaking any rules, and we're not doing anything "for good measure".

[Chariot of Fire]

A question that I'd like clarification on:

If a clan has selected 'random' for its first few weeks of home games and, for example, Forbidden City has come up twice, may that clan then purposefully select Forbidden City in future (as they won't have actually selected it beforehand, so the 3rd game would really be only the first time they chose it)?

This needs to be addressed as it could cause untold confusion - and also have a bearing on when to select one's random home games.

Thanks

[Scott-Land]

I think selecting Random Maps makes a whole lot of sense given the restrictions placed on selection (max 2 of one map). What the organisers are trying to avoid is for a clan to predetermine a map that it excels at and use it repeatedly. By selecting random a clan has no idea what that map will be - only the settings - and the likelihood of something such as City Mogul coming up more than two times is pretty slim given the vast array of maps.

We (TOFU) are in the middle of a clan war with Dragoons. All 40 maps were random and have been fantastic - no repeats and virtually all on big maps. It's also added an extra element of fun & surprise to see what crops up, so I strongly recommend it.

With the difficulty some people are facing trying to juggle with players, maps and settings due to the constraints in this season's CLA I'd have thought the selection of 'random' would be encouraged. It certainly does the home team no favours so I can't see why anyone would have issue with it.

Believe it or not but there are players on this site that get no enjoyment out of certain maps, and to force them to join not knowing if one of those maps will be selected will certainly discourage them from participating in future leagues. Where's the enjoyment of playing say Doodle triples every week? ( I know that map isn't part of the map selection, other maps like Waterloo could be a Doodle to someone else. )

The strength of a clan is it's diversity-- members specializing in particular game styles and settings. Clans should be able to utilize those skills and not be punished by it. What makes it right for one league to dictate how to best represent a clan-- by saying that everyone should excel at all maps ? Certainly not my definition of one.

A question that I'd like clarification on:

If a clan has selected 'random' for its first few weeks of home games and, for example, Forbidden City has come up twice, may that clan then purposefully select Forbidden City in future (as they won't have actually selected it beforehand, so the 3rd game would really be only the first time they chose it)?

This needs to be addressed as it could cause untold confusion - and also have a bearing on when to select one's random home games.

Thanks

That was one of the points in my earlier post.



Ohh and Francis-- I'm questioning the guidelines... not your clans selections. Merely using it as an example.

[Chariot of Fire]

You put forward a good argument Scott. I'm not saying "This is how it should be", merely proposing a solution to a number of complexities that will be faced by both the League officials and the clan organisers and stating the merits therein.

Believe it or not but there are players on this site that get no enjoyment out of certain maps, and to force them to join not knowing if one of those maps will be selected will certainly discourage them from participating in future leagues

No one is forcing anyone to join anything. If someone's confidence is going to be shaken by having to join a team on a random map then that is more a failing of the individual than the system.

Where's the enjoyment of playing say Doodle triples every week? ( I know that map isn't part of the map selection, other maps like Waterloo could be a Doodle to someone else. )

The likelihood of getting a map that one doesn't like is pretty slim, unless the player happens to not like >50% of the maps on the site, in which case maybe this will open his or her eyes to pastures new. "Do I enjoy Waterloo?" Not really, not any more, but it's probably good to secure a point for the team. "Would I enjoy Poison Rome more?" Yes, because I've seldom played it. So I think you're equating 'enjoyment' with 'winning', which are two different things entirely.

The strength of a clan is it's diversity-- members specializing in particular game styles and settings. Clans should be able to utilize those skills and not be punished by it

Any player worth his salt would know that the settings (e.g. esc/adj/fog) are far more relevant to his success than choice of map - a privilege that won't be denied the home team. The strength of a clan may also be measured by its adaptability on neutral ground, as with most battles, rather than having four of five players dominate proceedings on a limited selection of maps. This is true 'diversity', as you chose to mention it. I went 26-5 in last season's CLA, due to the most part in being able to select my ideal settings. This is hardly representative of a clan, but more of an individual who specializes in a particular field. I don't think it's right, simple as that.

What makes it right for one league to dictate how to best represent a clan-- by saying that everyone should excel at all maps ? Certainly not my definition of one.

By this same argument can't it be said that the League is dictating - by way of map constraints - how clans may be represented? By opting for random maps (in the rules) it becomes an imposition rather than a restriction, which is a far better governor as far as regulations go.

Regards

[Seulessliathan]

No one is forcing anyone to join anything. If someone's confidence is going to be shaken by having to join a team on a random map then that is more a failing of the individual than the system.

i´m sure 50% players of each clan are afraid of some maps, and only a few players got the time to play all maps, and some players just like the standard maps. Playing all maps random would exclude these players from the league or push them to do what they don´t like.
We can do so if we thing the point of a great challenge is more important than making everybody happy with map choices.
There are several arguments for both sides here.

What about making some games random but not all? Perhaps 33% random games .... enough space for master of all maps like you, but still several games for standard map players.

Any player worth his salt would know that the settings (e.g. esc/adj/fog) are far more relevant to his success than choice of map - a privilege that won't be denied the home team. The strength of a clan may also be measured by its adaptability on neutral ground, as with most battles, rather than having four of five players dominate proceedings on a limited selection of maps. This is true 'diversity', as you chose to mention it.

that depends .... some players have problem playing complex maps ... although they have mastered all settings. Hard to say if settings or map.

I went 26-5 in last season's CLA, due to the most part in being able to select my ideal settings.

didn´t we play 3 games and you lost all?^^ Game 4771266 Game 4778542 Game 4080458
(did i miss one?) so you went 26-2 for the rest of your games? nice record mate

By this same argument can't it be said that the League is dictating - by way of map constraints - how clans may be represented? By opting for random maps (in the rules) it becomes an imposition rather than a restriction, which is a far better governor as far as regulations go.

as already mentioned, i would suggest a mixture, perhaps 1 double, 1 triple and 1 quad random map per encounter.

[jpcloet]

Random map usage will be noted in the league data tables as random. Personally, I would avoid random for the trips and quads, but that is just me. I think this is a great strategy as they are a Div2 top tier team, and some of the other clans may fear the unknown. Good mental strategy I thinks. Really will show their versatility or lack thereof.

I don't have time to do the math but 56 random maps over like 120 available maps, may have some repeats, but not likely 3 or more. Again, keep track or plan your maps and this is not too hard to deal with.

More and more of the top clans are moving to versatility first and away from anything considered to be farming. I'm glad there is an all random challenge out there, however, I'd like to see more 1/3 home, 1/3 away and 1/3 random, or even 0.25,0.25,0.5 balance.

I find it funny that some of my original ideas from over a year ago are starting to sprout back up. People voted heavily against forced random maps, several fixed (but balanced) 10 sets, and few other ideas. Several clans over-used maps in Season 1, and that was the biggest complaint.

[Chariot of Fire]

that depends .... some players have problem playing complex maps ... although they have mastered all settings. Hard to say if settings or map

That's why I said "Any player worth his salt".

didn´t we play 3 games and you lost all?^^ Game 4771266 Game 4778542 Game 4080458
(did i miss one?) so you went 26-2 for the rest of your games? nice record mate

That is why you are my bogeyman and top my list of players I'm most determined to beat. Full credit to you for making it to No.1. (It might have been 26-6 come to think of it. Can't remember, and the answer's in the LoW forum )

[waseemalim]

Its a bit ironic that CoF should be the one to point out the difference with enjoying and winning. Dont know about you guys, but for me, there seems to be a strictly positive corelation between the two. I enjoy the games that I win. I do derive some pleasure from whining about games that were near wins -- but that pleasure is somewhat of a bitter substitute.

The Clan wars (and by extension this challenge) are not about enjoying the games at an esoteric level. If you want to do that, set up some private games with rabbiton -- you'll get more than your share of enjoyment. Clan wars are more about enjoying the spirit of competition, about deriving the that adrenaline from shaming your opponents. You play what you are good at, and you win.

I dont really have a strong opinion about the use of random maps. But, I lean on the side of them being curve balls. If a clan delivers 7 random games to LoW, we wouldnt know how to react. Sure we can play those games, but we cant play our best games. Why on earth should I be playing Age of Realms when we have got dbandit on the team. I stongly doubt I will be getting any pleasure points from getting pawned. Yes, you can argue that the opponent would be in an equal disadvantage -- "probably" so. But why leave things to probabilities? There is enough of a luck factor in the game already.

But if people are using random maps as a strategically, then it should be up to them.

[Blitzaholic]

so what is it? I make 2 maps on fuedal war lets say, then 4 weeks later, i pick random and lets say it goes to fuedal, then what? thats 3 fuedals I made? 2 and a random, so what happens? does the game count? or does it count and you cannot use it for playoffs cause 3rd game was played in season? or do we avoid random maps all together, it does throw some confusion into this. good point on COF who brought this up.

[Chariot of Fire]

Blitz,

I think JP already answered it fairly clearly mate. 'Random' will be recorded as 'random', regardless of what map comes up. So if your random selection happens to be Feudal for a 3rd time you will still be on the record as having only selected Feudal twice and can therefore select it in the playoffs.

[waseemalim]

JP, the language in the first post is extremely confusing about map usage. It says:

"# Given that a clan will only be making 56 home games and that there are over 100 maps available, there will be NO Duplicate maps in your chosen maps. This will also include the playoffs as well, so plan accordingly. That means at most, your clan will be using 56+4+4=64 maps. "

I thought we could use a map twice. And now CoF mentions that, in theory, we can use a map thrice. But the first post says that we can only use maps once. What does the "+4+4" mean?

Can you please tell us (and explain), how many maps we can work with at a minimum (including playoffs)? Thanks.