Moderator: Cartographers
iancanton wrote:i very much suspect that the basic layout of the map, after ur changes, is virtually there (apart from the fact that some command ships can still be bombarded by enemy ship start positions)
and only the bonuses and neutrals need more critical attention.
antwerp and brugge have no army count.
bruxelles is anomalously in french, while the other nearby regions are in dutch; brussel is more logical.
although the overall package looks better if there is legend at top and bottom with the playable map in the middle, this doesn't work so well when trying to understand the bonuses.
it makes more sense for the ship bonus to be valid for 9 single ships of the same nation, so that a player will tend to accumulate ships from one side of the battle.
it's not at all obvious that a command ship is part of this bonus and, unless a player is familiar with trafalgar (which has a similar concept), it probably wouldn't even cross his mind in his first armada game. this needs some explanation in the legend.
one might wonder why certain parts of the english channel give such high bonuses of +2 to +4 for holding 3 to 5 regions. after all, they're just areas of empty sea, while conquering 9 ships gives just +1. i understand that the sea areas cannot bombard, so they need some bonus to compensate, but the difference appears to be excessive.
ian.
cairnswk wrote:iancanton wrote:i very much suspect that the basic layout of the map, after ur changes, is virtually there (apart from the fact that some command ships can still be bombarded by enemy ship start positions)
Did you examine the chart i did 2 pages back ian?
Can you advise where you see that because they were all located well away from each other...perhaps i am mistaken
cairnswk wrote:bruxelles is anomalously in french, while the other nearby regions are in dutch; brussel is more logical.
sorry, not sure what u mean here
cairnswk wrote:although the overall package looks better if there is legend at top and bottom with the playable map in the middle, this doesn't work so well when trying to understand the bonuses.
i beleive this is the best solution as players may not have to scroll so far when looking up something.
iancanton wrote:cairnswk wrote:iancanton wrote:i very much suspect that the basic layout of the map, after ur changes, is virtually there (apart from the fact that some command ships can still be bombarded by enemy ship start positions)
Did you examine the chart i did 2 pages back ian?
Can you advise where you see that because they were all located well away from each other...perhaps i am mistaken
são luis can bombard san martin. scout can bombard ark royal.
cairnswk wrote:bruxelles is anomalously in french, while the other nearby regions are in dutch; brussel is more logical.
sorry, not sure what u mean here
bruxelles is the french name for brussels (brussel in dutch), while gent, brugge and ieper are dutch names for these cities (gand, bruges and ypres in french), calais is a french name (kales in dutch) and antwerp is in english (antwerpen in dutch and anvers in french). we need some consistency here.
cairnswk wrote:although the overall package looks better if there is legend at top and bottom with the playable map in the middle, this doesn't work so well when trying to understand the bonuses.
i beleive this is the best solution as players may not have to scroll so far when looking up something.
on the contrary, players may have to scroll to both top and bottom to make sure that they have the complete picture, for example the treasury is in both the top and bottom part of the legend.
ian.
iancanton wrote:thanks for trying, anyway. just trying to anticipate the comments about the legend at the graphics stage.
there are still a few territories (i'm using territories to mean non-treasury regions and presume that this is the meaning in the legend) that can assault or bombard an opponent's start: diana and doncella, aid and poole land supply, bull, rainbow stern and ft(a), ft(a) and london land supply, zuniga and vanguard stern and moon, scout and brighton land supply.
can all territories bombard 2 in any direction, or just ships? i'm assuming it's all territories, since the legend doesn't say otherwise.
in the treasury, is it worth breaking up the upward arrow to make it clear that u cannot assault two treasury squares above?
tilbury fort (not fort tilbury) is on the north side of the river thames, not the south. if u don't have enough room for the army count up there, then just extending the green colour and the western border line to the other side of the river will be fine, as long as there's no doubt that it assaults york.
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/daysout/properties/tilbury-fort/
ian.
iancanton wrote:it makes complete sense that all ships, armies and land supplies ought to be able to bombard; it's questionable for battle sites, english non-supply territories, beacons and treasury regions.
SS for supply ship looks much neater than L.B. for land base. remove the dots?
ian.
DoomYoshi wrote:Disdain and Diana in the legend are different colors and shapes than the same ships in the map. When you get to graphics, that should probably be fixed to avoid confusion.
The beacons should have either beacon at least with 2 or 3 neutrals to avoid giving the british players too much advantage (unless it was the beacons that caused the battle to be won - I'm not very familiar with this battle).
Perhaps some key territories could also have a higher neutral bonus. Not sure which ones to put it on though.
pamoa wrote:wow it has changed since I came last time
few remarks...
YesI read all legend complex but understandable
except for the second part of Treasury Movement
does it mean the first row of treasury is attackable from command vessel, SS, LB ?
what is the difference between +1M and +1T in the treasury
I would restrain bombardment to command vessel only
as larger ship they are controlling at range
smaller ship shouldn't be
neither land bases but I'm not sure
cairnswk wrote:Yespamoa wrote:I read all legend complex but understandable
except for the second part of Treasury Movement
does it mean the first row of treasury is attackable from command vessel, SS, LB ?
what is the difference between +1M and +1T in the treasury
+M1 is the monarch tert start that has to be held +1T is the first treasury tert that has to be conquered to earn the treasury bonus, whereafter you can start to attack (when necessary but not at the start) or fort to you other starting positions.
hold a monarch and their treasury +11
bow and stern range an assault to any player's monarch territory e.g. victory b to F +1M
each monarch assault their own treasury only
the treasury : players must conquer neutrals to earn corresponding row bonus which autodeploy
treasury movement : players move one-way up to earn bonuses
or can assault and fort from any treasury square to same player's command vessel, supply ship (ss) or land base (lb)
spanish/english treasury : higher adds to lower bonuses
It was not about reality but playabilitycairnswk wrote:well, no, all vessels had capacity to bombard all other vessel.pamoa wrote:I would restrain bombardment to command vessel only
as larger ship they are controlling at range
smaller ship shouldn't be
neither land bases but I'm not sure
I beleive ian has conquered that aspect.
pamoa wrote:....
then I suggest a clearer and grouped phrasing
I still can figure out who can attack who and what bonus it get
you should add a monarch definition
player is vague here do you mean red, blue, green, ... or spain and britain
hold a monarch and their treasury +11
bow and stern range an assault to any player's monarch territory e.g. victory b to F +1M
each monarch assault their own treasury only
the treasury : players must conquer neutrals to earn corresponding row bonus which autodeploy
treasury movement : players move one-way up to earn bonuses
or can assault and fort from any treasury square to same player's command vessel, supply ship (ss) or land base (lb)
spanish/english treasury : higher adds to lower bonuses
monarch (M) :
their is 6 monarch starting positions on both side
bonus +1 for each (change the +1M to M)
hold a monarch position and its own treasury column for +11
each monarch position can only assault one-way up
and is assaulted by any command vessel (bow or stern)
treasury :
bonus for each row see the ladder on the side (remove the T in side legend)
row bonuses autodeploy
each treasury position can assault one-way up
or fort to any same player's command vessel, supply ship (SS) or land base (LB) *
[color=#008000]* I'm not sure what you meant here by attacking your own position
how do you define same player's positions
either you can only fort to any of your own hold positions then how to code it
or their are predefined link from each treasury column to assault one particular vessel, ss or lb then it should be stated
or you can assault any vessel, ss or lb
cairnswk wrote:well, no, all vessels had capacity to bombard all other vessel.pamoa wrote:I would restrain bombardment to command vessel only
as larger ship they are controlling at range
smaller ship shouldn't be
neither land bases but I'm not sure
I beleive ian has conquered that aspect.
It was not about reality but playability
are you sure you want almost all territories to be able to bombard
I mean its a lot of bombarding position
and in trench mode it would be almost impossible to go forward
you should have read "I can't" sorry for my typing error and approximative Englishcairnswk wrote:you can or your cannot figure these things out....I am not sure if you have written this correctly in incorrectly, so I do not entirely understand if you can or cannot figure it outpamoa wrote:...I still can figure out who can attack who and what bonus it get
yes it's imperative especially for British LB and on each columncairnswk wrote:the idea is that there are borders from each treasury space in each column to each corresponding starting position for CV, SS or LB.pamoa wrote:...if there is a predefined link from each Treasury column to assault one particular CV, SS or LB then it should be stated...
so what I probably need to do is identify each ss, lb with it's herald
pamoa wrote:...
and I suppose de Parma and LB Army Brussels didn't get any treasury connection
nolefan5311 wrote:I have a question cairns...you say the Treasury can only assault/fort that same players command vessel, SS, or LB. Is that possible with the current XML abilities? To code one starting position to only be able to attack the same players starting position?
pamoa wrote:about the "Monarch" term you use to define all 12 starting positions at the base of the treasury
I think it can bring some confusion as the only monarch named on your map are Philip II and Elisabeth I
so maybe "Nobles"
nolefan5311 wrote:Ok, I've been away from "work" too long. I failed to realize there are PERMANENT associations between particular Monarchs, CVs, and LBs across ALL games (i.e., William Winter, Vanguard, and Margate LB are permanently associated across all games) based on their shield. I was operating off the assumption that there was not a consistent combination of M, CV, and SS/LB.
Carry on, carry on...momentary loss of focus corrected.
iancanton wrote:swiftsure and poole land supply can still bombard each other. san martin b can still bombard de parma f, though this might be deliberate and is not necessarily a problem because de parma is not a starting region.
vanguard, which is already secure because of its corner position, is further protected by vanguard s being invulnerable from the east. as well as removing the barrier to the east of vanguard s, change the vanguard start position to vanguard b, frida and margate lb to dilute the advantage of being remote from attack.
some command vessel starting regions can be bombarded by an enemy after the latter kills an n1. i suggest that san pedro, san juan, san juan bautista and tramontana become n2. this gives a slight defensive advantage to the cv (against its potential aggressor) that happens to be in danger from this type of bombardment.
ian.
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