Moderator: Community Team
Army of GOD wrote:fog is fun for casual gamers (I consider myself a casual gamer with my 0 active games) but freestyle is literally only for the idiots or the hardcore gamers and is just generally unfun. I wouldn't miss any sleep over it being removed.
nagerous wrote:Dibbun is a well known psychotic from the forums
Army of GOD wrote:Congrats to Dibbun, the white jesus, and all of his mercy and forgiveness.
Jdsizzleslice wrote: So you can crawl back to whatever psychosocial nutjob hole you came from.
Mr Changsha wrote:Woodruff wrote:I don't believe that logically follows.
First of all, I did not at all take your previous post as one denigrating intelligence of casual players at all, so I apologize that my response came across that way.
However, my point is that if the experienced casual player wants to gravitate toward the more complicated settings in order to increase their rank (as you suggest), that doesn't affect the health of the site in any way. Those who are getting pummeled on those maps/settings are still presumably happy in playing those maps/settings, since they are experienced enough to know the difference and haven't moved away from those maps/settings.
There are still a vast number of casual players like me who are perfectly happy chugging along on the fairly basic games and settings, so there is no dearth of opponents nor games being created within that vein. So I'm failing to see how the experienced players' choices affect the health of the site.
Rather, I believe this is wholeheartedly a matter of being able to keep some reasonable percentage of the new players around. Although I am open to the idea that I've completely misunderstood what you're trying to say, much as you thought I took your previous post to be one of denigration to the casual player.
I'm not sure I could put it more clearly than I have! Though I would suggest that you are considering the point from your own experience (which is fair enough), that of a player 'happy to chug along'. I think a lot more players would like to play on those settings as well, but feel they have to play freestyle or fog to increase their score. I know YOU don't care about that, I know there are others who don't either. But i think a lot players do.
Mr Changsha wrote:I know my proposal is far too radical. People are obsessed with the idea that more choice is automatically a good thing. Even when such choices are destroying the integrity of the game. But I will continue to shout into the wind...
+1 there is a distinct lack of consistency and that is what a lot of users i talk to find very frustrating. Examples are some threads in C & A locked quickly with threats of punishments from mods and some are allowed to ramble and ramble without any consideration to lock. The suggestions forum is very poor, not mods fault i guess but they push for changes where frankly no one cares and adds nothing to gameplay but good honest suggestions are slapped away quite quickly with the comments "been suggested before etc" not a very progressive site.eddie2 wrote:lol what happened to equal punishment for all.
this ban. posting in game chat after game was complete.. not even any player in game complaining about it....
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174283
in regard to this sorry jr.. posting in game chat while game still going on. no warning no ban just a closed... with a comment stating this style of gaming was not abuse so he should not be chatting in it. (but it has been classed as abuse since then.)
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=110327&hilit=jr24+spamming
This is just a perfect example of how players are getting pissed off with the one rule for one and another for a different player.
eddie2 wrote:this ban. posting in game chat after game was complete.. not even any player in game complaining about it....
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174283
nagerous wrote:Dibbun is a well known psychotic from the forums
Army of GOD wrote:Congrats to Dibbun, the white jesus, and all of his mercy and forgiveness.
Jdsizzleslice wrote: So you can crawl back to whatever psychosocial nutjob hole you came from.
Dibbun wrote:eddie2 wrote:this ban. posting in game chat after game was complete.. not even any player in game complaining about it....
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174283
That was a very good ruling, it was part of a broader context of Ir1sh Ace's unhealthy obsession with GlG that descended into cyber harassment. Ir1sh Ace should use this month vacation as an opportunity to find a quality therapist so maybe he can find out why he has to stalk people in order to find value in his life.
ahunda wrote:Oh, wow. At this point I am starting to completely disagree with Mr Changsha on almost everything he has said in his last posts. I don´t even know, where to start.
Point 1:Mr Changsha wrote:''But they can set them up themselves!!!" I hear you all cry. But I wager the new player is rarely immediately premium. He must join a game.
This is wrong, I believe. Freemiums can start/create casual games ? They can not start private games, that´s all ?
Point 2:
Your definition of the casual player is seriously lacking. I had friends playing at this site, who never visited the forums, gave a rats ass about the Scoreboard, clans, etc. Only came here to play games and did so for years. Casual fun players in every meaning of the word, and guess what their preferred games were: Feudal Foggy, AoR Foggy, ...
Not everybody is playing special maps & settings, because they think, that it is the best way to gain points & rank. As a matter of fact, I actually believe, most play them, because they simply like to play them.
Point 3:
I just looked at the top of the Scoreboard, and from what I see there, at least 50% of the current Top 20-50 are Sequential players. Some of them almost exclusively playing Standard Esc games.
From my own experience I can tell you: Playing 6-8 player Standard Esc games, Sunny & on old school Risk maps, you can reach General and even 4000+ points. If you are good enough.
Your arguments in that regard sound rather like a personal grudge of someone, who has peaked with his personally preferred settings. And you have started that argument about 100 times in different threads in the past already. Yes, playing Standard Flat Rate games you will not reach the Top 20 of the Scoreboard. The reason being, that - different from Standard Esc games - beyond a certain point you don´t find enough players of similar rank anymore to fill your games.
And yet again, from personal experience, I can tell you, why: Unless you have lop-sided dice in the early rounds or someone makes a really stupid mistake, that upsets the entire balance of the game, a huge percentage of Flat Rate Standard games develop into never-ending stalemate building games. And after a few 100 of these games, they are about as exciting as watching paint go dry. Thus many players (myself included), once they have mastered this particular setting, get bored with it and move on to different games.
As I see it, the many special maps & settings are actually what keeps many old-timers interested, so they stick around & keep playing. Because there still is something new to discover, a new challenge to be had, a new interesting twist to the game to be tried.
Point 4:
I agree, that the scoring system is f*cked. But I don´t think, that this is the reason for the decline of the site.
I remember, that a couple of years ago there were never less than 18.000 players on the Scoreboard, and at times as many as 22-23.000. So there is a decline, that much is obvious. But let´s be honest: The discussions about the scoring system, about the Sequential-Freestyle conflict and about Farming issues we had already back then, years ago, when the member count was at its height.
Maybe the f*cked scoring system is a reason for some people to leave/quit the site. But there are many other reasons: People just getting bored with the game and moving on to something else, people undergoing changes in RL and not having time for it anymore, etc.
The problem is, that obviously not enough new players sign up & stay around. And there have been some very good posts here, why that might be so, and what could be done about that.
For players to become frustrated with the scoring system, they must have been around for quite a while already to realise the problems with it. These however are certainly not the main problems for the casual fun player, who - by definition - doesn´t care too deeply about the Scoreboard anyway.
Still: Certainly problems, that have gone unanswered for way too long, with pretty obvious solutions being suggested again and again: Separation of the Scoreboard. Sequential-Freestyle at the very least. If people insist, further separation might be possible (Singles - Team, whatever). But this, in my opinion at least, it is a different discussion entirely.
And now I stop myself, before this become any longer ...
tkr4lf wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:I think I can answer most of the replies by concerning myself with woodruff's post.
You didn't really address my points at all. The point about how it's inherently unfair to force players to play a certain type of game. If some people like to play sequential, escalating, sunny games, and others like to play sequential, no spoils, foggy games, why can't the both just play the game types that they like? Why must there be an abolishing of settings in order to force everybody to play the game type that you like best? Does that not seem a bit excessive?
Isn't there a happy medium somewhere that allows those who want to play more advanced settings the opportunity to do so, but still encourages the classic gameplay that you so desire? Or, in your opinion, must a draconian action be taken to force everybody to play the game that you (and most casual gamers, according to you anyway) want to play?
And how about the point that doing so would likely drive away some of the existing customers who have been here for years? I personally don't care all that much for sunny games anymore. Fog introduces new strategy into a tired old game. I've been playing RISK since I was about 10 years old with my dad and brother. After a while, playing that same game gets old. I can't speak for everybody, but I would be willing to wager that I wouldn't be alone in this, but personally, I would leave the site if they started abolishing settings in order to force me to play a certain game type that I don't want to play.
Can you actually address these points? Because you really didn't in your response to Woodruff.
natty dread wrote:Here's what I suggest.
- Separate scoreboard for freestyle & sequential games (because they're really a different game)
- Allow freemiums to play 1 speed game at a time on any map at any time
- Revamp the site UI - including the actual game page, and the Join/Start/Find a game pages
With these changes, CC could turn this slump it is in now around to a second wind, and rise to the levels it was back in 2009.
There are some additional changes that would need to be made to improve CC:s success above that, but since they are not the most essential to the immediate success of CC (and I have ranted on enough about them elsewhere) I will not mention them here. Also because I don't think any of this is going to help anything - the admins don't listen, they just plug their ears and implement another idiotic feature after another (cough cough... conquer cup) and ignore the falling number of users. By all means, lackattack, prove me wrong... I dare you.
Mr Changsha wrote:The site is made for a hardcore of probably a thousand (at most) players. That's why the membership is dropping year by year and why, if CC is not very careful, they will finally lose their site. CC needs to get back to promoting Risk as what this site is about.
agentcom wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:The site is made for a hardcore of probably a thousand (at most) players. That's why the membership is dropping year by year and why, if CC is not very careful, they will finally lose their site. CC needs to get back to promoting Risk as what this site is about.
I read through your whole post, but not the comments. So, I'm sorry if this has been said.
An alternative to your doomsday prediction: CC will establish itself as a niche where people who want a little change on the classic game can come to play. While many freemiums may leave the site after a poor first experience, I have met many players who revel in the challenge of games that are not like that old-fashioned game of Risk that brought them to this site. There are other places on the internet where you can go play actual Risk. How many of you have been to Pogo? Many, I presume. What sets the games you're talking about apart from Pogo? Not much. In order to succeed, you need to be different. And I'd rather pay my $25 here then play old-school over there. I like that they're out there. I love fog, different fortification and card settings, the ability to play in teams, etc.
If they're looking for Risk, they can come here and see if they want to indulge in the unique game play options. If they like them, they might pay for more. If they don't like them ... well why would they pay to be here when they can hop on Pogo, etc.? The benefits of Premium are: More games, speed games, and ability to send invites. How many people that are just wanting to play the old school classic game would pay to be here for any of those options? Not many because you can get your fix over at Pogo.
The users that you say are taking over the site are the ones that want more games and the option to play speed games on whatever map they want. In other words, the direction that this site is heading is a direct response to the desires of the paying customers. That's not a problem so much as it is a good business model.
If CC becomes more like old-school Risk, it will lose the only competitive advantage it has over these other sites. Differentiation is the key to success here (especially for CC who doesn't hold the rights to the original game). Players that want to play Risk will naturally tend to flow to sites that offer Risk. And, tbh, Hasbro can probably give them that classic experience that they are looking for better than CC can. But CC's opportunity to succeed is based on being similar to but distinct from that classic game. The users that desire the mix of settings and maps that make CC different will be the ones that stay here and pay to play.
The thing you criticize is the very thing (the only thing?) that will give CC a shot at success.
Mr Changsha wrote:Points 1 and 2...the first is a technical question and I'm not convinced it is hugely key. Assuming you are right, then of course that element of my argument (of course I have so many...) must be disregarded. Concerning point 2, this is a question of our interpertations of motivation. I say they choose these settings to increase their chances of winning, you say they play them for fun. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I will continue to stick with my interpretation.
Mr Changsha wrote:Point 3 is more crucial as I suspect you have missed an element of the argument. Btw I don't blame you at all for this. If someone else had written all this no doubt I would be entirely lost. i credit you for keeping up so well!! The issue is related to the Alpha or Beta players. Alpha players are prefectly capable of playing sunny, sequential and getting up to 4,000. Of course I know that. So that you have found many players of this type on the first page is irrelevent. The issue is with the Beta players. These guys have to pervert their settings (effectively farm) to compete with the Alpha players. Sadly, because the options are there, some Beta players turn to the dark side. This is what has created the sense of unfairness that pervades this site.
Mr Changsha wrote:Therefore, the only way I can see to cleanse the site is to remove the offending settings.
natty dread wrote:
- Separate scoreboard for freestyle & sequential games (because they're really a different game)
- Allow freemiums to play 1 speed game at a time on any map at any time
- Revamp the site UI - including the actual game page, and the Join/Start/Find a game pages
jltile1 wrote:Fusi baseball also stated that giving speed games like under 50 games that is one of the best ideas as other sites do the same thing, get them hooked.
Return to Conquer Club Discussion
Users browsing this forum: No registered users