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Army of GOD wrote:I would think that a love of money is just as much a cause of evil as like, say, a love of religion. Or a love of anything, really.
Army of GOD wrote:I would think that a love of money is just as much a cause of evil as like, say, a love of religion. Or a love of anything, really.
Funkyterrance wrote:Army of GOD wrote:I would think that a love of money is just as much a cause of evil as like, say, a love of religion. Or a love of anything, really.
I disagree as money has no intrinsic value. Many other things do.
PLAYER57832 wrote:Army of GOD wrote:I would think that a love of money is just as much a cause of evil as like, say, a love of religion. Or a love of anything, really.
So you are saying that strong feelings about anything are the roots of evil?
Army of GOD wrote:
And what does money having no intrinsic value have to do with anything?
Funkyterrance wrote:Army of GOD wrote:
And what does money having no intrinsic value have to do with anything?
You serious?
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.
Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.
BigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.
Money allows you to do both...
(long-term and short-term).
So, it's not money, or the love of money, that's the problem here. The 'problem' which you envision is having a high time preference (i.e. "I want it, and I want it now"), which is not in all cases a problem. Regarding the love of money, it doesn't matter if the thing wanted was money to buy X, Y, and Z. It could've been potatoes, which would be exchanged for X, Y, and Z in some barter economy.
PLAYER57832 wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.
Money allows you to do both...
(long-term and short-term).
So, it's not money, or the love of money, that's the problem here. The 'problem' which you envision is having a high time preference (i.e. "I want it, and I want it now"), which is not in all cases a problem. Regarding the love of money, it doesn't matter if the thing wanted was money to buy X, Y, and Z. It could've been potatoes, which would be exchanged for X, Y, and Z in some barter economy.
My point was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible.
If you have to go out and raise the food you want, or make some product to trade, then it takes a lot more time.
None of those were available at the time this was written down.BigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.
Money allows you to do both...
(long-term and short-term).
So, it's not money, or the love of money, that's the problem here. The 'problem' which you envision is having a high time preference (i.e. "I want it, and I want it now"), which is not in all cases a problem. Regarding the love of money, it doesn't matter if the thing wanted was money to buy X, Y, and Z. It could've been potatoes, which would be exchanged for X, Y, and Z in some barter economy.
My point was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible.
If you have to go out and raise the food you want, or make some product to trade, then it takes a lot more time.
Sure, money reduces transaction costs--but so do credit cards, and so do cars (reduced time to get to place A to buy X), so instead of blaming money, why not blame cars, banks, etc.?
(because it's not about money, it's about having a high time preference).
IF you have already taken the time to grow the potatoes. Money gained through trade of goods is generally quicker -- the time of transport. Dependent generally upon producers. Today, though a lot of money is not directly linked to any product or service, its just money to those acquiring it.BigBallinStalin wrote: And your second sentence isn't necessarily true. You could be some farmer who gets paid by the day in potatoes, which you then trade for whatever good you want...
(hell, you could even have potatoes on a credit card, and transfer money that way).
I am talking about a famous saying and why it has for so long been held in regard.BigBallinStalin wrote: Sorry, but the criticism against money itself--or "the love of money"--isn't holding up.
tzor wrote:I'll keep this simple, as I have to go to a NaNaWriMo kickoff meeting in an hour and it's about an hour away.
First we need to get word definitions right. Love is a highly fungable word. We can "love" chocolate. We can also obsess over chocolate.
I have the feeling that it is the later. Money can be considered the universal medium to acquire property; it's highly fungable as you can buy all sorts of property with money,
Thus the obesssion with money, the ability to acquire things on demand, leads ones towards the self at the exclusion of others. Thus evil, the ability to hurt others for personal gain, in part is driven by the biggest medium of personal gain, money.
Does that make sense?
PLAYER57832 wrote:None of those were available at the time this was written down.BigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.
Money allows you to do both...
(long-term and short-term).
So, it's not money, or the love of money, that's the problem here. The 'problem' which you envision is having a high time preference (i.e. "I want it, and I want it now"), which is not in all cases a problem. Regarding the love of money, it doesn't matter if the thing wanted was money to buy X, Y, and Z. It could've been potatoes, which would be exchanged for X, Y, and Z in some barter economy.
My point was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible.
If you have to go out and raise the food you want, or make some product to trade, then it takes a lot more time.
Sure, money reduces transaction costs--but so do credit cards, and so do cars (reduced time to get to place A to buy X), so instead of blaming money, why not blame cars, banks, etc.?
(because it's not about money, it's about having a high time preference).
Also, credit, etc are really just different types of money.
PLAYER57832 wrote:IF you have already taken the time to grow the potatoes. Money gained through trade of goods is generally quicker -- the time of transport. Dependent generally upon producers. Today, though a lot of money is not directly linked to any product or service, its just money to those acquiring it.BigBallinStalin wrote: And your second sentence isn't necessarily true. You could be some farmer who gets paid by the day in potatoes, which you then trade for whatever good you want...
(hell, you could even have potatoes on a credit card, and transfer money that way).
PLAYER57832 wrote:I am talking about a famous saying and why it has for so long been held in regard.BigBallinStalin wrote: Sorry, but the criticism against money itself--or "the love of money"--isn't holding up.
I am not criticizing money, nor is the saying.
If you don't think the saying is true, that is a valid opinion, of course. However, you are acting as if this were my own personal saying and a recent one at that, and it isn't.
tzor wrote:I'll keep this simple, as I have to go to a NaNaWriMo kickoff meeting in an hour and it's about an hour away.
First we need to get word definitions right. Love is a highly fungable word. We can "love" chocolate. We can also obsess over chocolate.
I have the feeling that it is the later. Money can be considered the universal medium to acquire property; it's highly fungable as you can buy all sorts of property with money,
Thus the obesssion with money, the ability to acquire things on demand, leads ones towards the self at the exclusion of others. Thus evil, the ability to hurt others for personal gain, in part is driven by the biggest medium of personal gain, money.
Does that make sense?
chang50 wrote:Like most old sayings this one doesn't bear much scrutiny,there is plenty of evil in the world that has no apparent connection to the love of money,eg serial murderers who kill for pleasure.Obviously being obsessed with money and what this leads to is not good..
BigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:None of those were available at the time this was written down.BigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:BigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:My feeling is that money is used to purchase things, mostly immediate needs and wants. It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term. It can hide impacts of ills you do in that way.
Money allows you to do both...
(long-term and short-term).
So, it's not money, or the love of money, that's the problem here. The 'problem' which you envision is having a high time preference (i.e. "I want it, and I want it now"), which is not in all cases a problem. Regarding the love of money, it doesn't matter if the thing wanted was money to buy X, Y, and Z. It could've been potatoes, which would be exchanged for X, Y, and Z in some barter economy.
My point was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible.
If you have to go out and raise the food you want, or make some product to trade, then it takes a lot more time.
Sure, money reduces transaction costs--but so do credit cards, and so do cars (reduced time to get to place A to buy X), so instead of blaming money, why not blame cars, banks, etc.?
(because it's not about money, it's about having a high time preference).
Also, credit, etc are really just different types of money.
Ah, so you're talking about the "money is the root of all evil" idea from the Age before Credit, which was... 800+ years ago, since credit has been around that long (and probably before). "But what about banks?" Venice, roughly 400 years ago. "What about credit cards"? Oh okay, so this idea against money only applies to time before credit cards, but then you run into the centuries-old bank and credit problem.
Either way, it's evident that you're (or whoever you want to shift this to) is complaining about high time preference--which they mistake for "love of money."
Money is a medium of exchange; that's all it is. It can be exchanged in the form of credit and debits, or as cash money, or as gold, silk cords, fancy beads, etc.
BigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:IF you have already taken the time to grow the potatoes. Money gained through trade of goods is generally quicker -- the time of transport. Dependent generally upon producers. Today, though a lot of money is not directly linked to any product or service, its just money to those acquiring it.BigBallinStalin wrote: And your second sentence isn't necessarily true. You could be some farmer who gets paid by the day in potatoes, which you then trade for whatever good you want...
(hell, you could even have potatoes on a credit card, and transfer money that way).
But you're still missing the point. Your complaint against money/love of money and "you can get X NOW" is about transaction costs and time preference, and not about money itself. I've already explained this.
LOLBigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:I am talking about a famous saying and why it has for so long been held in regard.BigBallinStalin wrote: Sorry, but the criticism against money itself--or "the love of money"--isn't holding up.
I am not criticizing money, nor is the saying.
If you don't think the saying is true, that is a valid opinion, of course. However, you are acting as if this were my own personal saying and a recent one at that, and it isn't.
So, whenever you bring in any defense, it's not at all yours but from the idea? I find that unlikely unless you provide some source.
BigBallinStalin wrote:1. Money allows for long-term spending and short-term spending, so you were completely wrong when you said, "It allows you to pursue immediate desires instead of looking more long term."
Why were you wrong? Because you're mixing up money with high time preference.
2. The following is wrong too: "My point* was that money makes getting what you want NOW possible," but wait a minute! banks, credit, credit cards, cars, higher productivity (thus lower prices), etc., also "make getting what you want NOW possible"; therefore, it is not only money which causes this (note how you ignore my point about cars and how that reduces transaction costs).
3. Shifting to "Oh, well, I'm talking about the "love of money = evil" idea when it came out," is silly because many of the above institutions have been around for centuries, and furthermore...
*...it's your point, and not the idea's? But just now, you said, "you are acting as if this were my own personal saying and a recent one at that, and it isn't." Obviously, you're contradicting yourself, and we have not been only discussing the "money is evil" saying, but also your own defense of it.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Haha, I even quoted you on what you actually said, calmly addressed it, and somehow that's trolling.
Player, what is money?
what is time preference?
and what is transaction cost?
I ask because you've been using these ideas, but you don't seem to understand what you're saying.
Phatscotty wrote:as always, simple answer...
because it makes you do things you don't want to do or know you shouldn't do
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